Thanks, Dubya. $1,600,000,000,000 - Page 4

**limerickman** · #46 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

Quite rich coming from a citizen of a nation that sat out the war. Sat out the war just to spite the British. Well done. Well done. Way to polish the Irish image.

Au contraire.

I'm not the one making grandiose claims about how everyone else ought to be grateful to the USA.

I ask the question again : if your lot were so concerned about tanks rolling round Europe, why did your country sat by from 1939-1941 while profiteering from both sides of the conflict?

Let me give you the answer.
Your country wasn't interested in what was going on in Europe between 1939-1941.
While all the time it profitted from the war.
Which puts all this so-called concern about tanks rolling around anywhere, in to perspective.

Colorado Ryder · #47 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

The outbreak of WW2, can be traced in part to the start/outcome of WW1.
WW started because several empires - British/French/German/Austro-Hungary/Russia - were all vying for power.
Europe was a powderkeg.

Following the Armistice, Versaille imposed gratuitous and draconian conditions
on Germany and the ordinary German person.
Remember WW1 derived because the people at the top in various countries
wanted pole position over other countries.
The ordinary German was as distanced from that situation as your or I.

Germany broke down and in turn this led to a vacuum and Hitler came to power.

In hindsight to negotiate with Hitler was immaterial.
But given the history, given the carnage of WW1 - is Chamberlin to be condemned?
Easy for us, now, to say that he was wrong to negotiate.

Should we trust Iran/Korea etc?
What basis do we have for not trusting them?

Have you tried viewing the situation from their perspective?
From an iranian perspective, for example?
You are familiar with Irans recent history?
How democratic elections in 1950's were overthrown by the CIA and how a ruler (the Shah) was imposed on Iran?
And you do know that the first country in Middle East in which a nuclear reactor was built was Iran, and that the US built that reactor for them?
You do know this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Have you tried viewing the situation from their perspective?
From an iranian perspective, for example?
You are familiar with Irans recent history?
How democratic elections in 1950's were overthrown by the CIA and how a ruler (the Shah) was imposed on Iran?
And you do know that the first country in Middle East in which a nuclear reactor was built was Iran, and that the US built that reactor for them?
You do know this?

Did you know that the British and French were responsible for Israel obtaining the bomb? Did you know that the French were the main military suppliers of Israel till the mid 60's? Did you know that the British and French fought on the side of the Israelis in the 1956 war to protect their own self-interest? Did you know that the British wanted to overthow the Iranian elections but did not have the resources to do it so the asked the US to do it. Did you know that the British wanted the government changed because it feared the new Iranian government was going to nationalize the British oil company in Iran? The US did it because it thought Iran was going to become communist. The British wanted it done to preserve their assets in Iran. also known as self-interest.

Just more examples of european meddling in the middle east.

Bro Deal · #48 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Au contraire.

I'm not the one making grandiose claims about how everyone else ought to be grateful to the USA.

I ask the question again : if your lot were so concerned about tanks rolling round Europe, why did your country sat by from 1939-1941 while profiteering from both sides of the conflict?

Let me give you the answer.
Your country wasn't interested in what was going on in Europe between 1939-1941.
While all the time it profitted from the war.
Which puts all this so-called concern about tanks rolling around anywhere, in to perspective.

Dude, you are going to have a very hard time arguing this one. Part of many Americans self identity is a belief that they live in a good country that is the light of the world and can do no wrong. If they are ever questioned about anything the country does, they dredge up WWII as though it excuses what they are doing today. It is also why they are keen to accuse any potential enemy as another Hiltler; it allows them to turn off their brains and imagine they refighting Nazis.

Bro Deal · #49 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

Did you know that the British and French were responsible for Israel obtaining the bomb? Did you know that the French were the main military suppliers of Israel till the mid 60's? Did you know that the British and French fought on the side of the Israelis in the 1956 war to protect their own self-interest? Did you know that the British wanted to overthow the Iranian elections but did not have the resources to do it so the asked the US to do it. Did you know that the British wanted the government changed because it feared the new Iranian government was going to nationalize the British oil company in Iran? The US did it because it thought Iran was going to become communist. The British wanted it done to preserve their assets in Iran. also known as self-interest.

Just more examples of european meddling in the middle east.

And this excuses what the United States has done in what way?

Colorado Ryder · #50 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Au contraire.

I'm not the one making grandiose claims about how everyone else ought to be grateful to the USA.

I ask the question again : if your lot were so concerned about tanks rolling round Europe, why did your country sat by from 1939-1941 while profiteering from both sides of the conflict?

Let me give you the answer.
Your country wasn't interested in what was going on in Europe between 1939-1941.
While all the time it profitted from the war.
Which puts all this so-called concern about tanks rolling around anywhere, in to perspective.

No we weren't interested in fighting another idiotic war started by idiotic europeans. Seems your lot would have learned the first time around but obviously not. Your lot enjoyed the death and destruction so much the first time you wanted another round of it only worst. If your so condemning of our neutrality you must really pissed that your government remained neutral for the whole war. Why should America have to fight in a war that your lot caused?

**limerickman** · #51 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

Did you know that the British and French were responsible for Israel obtaining the bomb? Did you know that the French were the main military suppliers of Israel till the mid 60's? Did you know that the British and French fought on the side of the Israelis in the 1956 war to protect their own self-interest? Did you know that the British wanted to overthow the Iranian elections but did not have the resources to do it so the asked the US to do it. Did you know that the British wanted the government changed because it feared the new Iranian government was going to nationalize the British oil company in Iran? The US did it because it thought Iran was going to become communist. The British wanted it done to preserve their assets in Iran. also known as self-interest.

Just more examples of european meddling in the middle east.

So?
This mitigates what your country did and does, when it meddles in other countries?
Just because all those other imperialist powers did what they did, this gives your country carte blanche to do what it likes?
Isn't your country supposed to oppose the imperialism?

And while you're putting the argument about how you were asked by the British to do this or that.........why did your country do it?
Because it was asked?
Because it couldn't refuse?

I don't read any British/french/soviet members talking up their country's involvement in other nations.

sogood · #52 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

America decided to get itself tangled in the Korea/Cambodia/Vietnam, through it's own volition.

Good point. Each one of them were effectively a civil war that US decided to participate and meddle in, committing large numbers of combat troops. If the Cold War was the excuse, then the US could have just done what the Russian did and just supplied arms and technical assistance (apart from a few isolated cases like skilled combat pilots). As for the Chinese involvement in Korea, it was after the US troops have beaten the N Korean army to the Yalu River and MacArthur threatened to use the atomic bomb and invade China. And in each case, the well supplied and technically superior might of the US military got its nose bloodied against technically inferior opponents. Leaving a trail of environmental damage eg. Agent Orange.

And in Iraq... The death toll continues with IEDs.

Colorado Ryder · #53 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

And this excuses what the United States has done in what way?

I know the US has engaged some unhonorable activities. Just pointing out to our critic in Europe that they are just as guilty.

sogood · #54 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

I know the US has engaged some unhonorable activities. Just pointing out to our critic in Europe that they are just as guilty.

At least many of them are smart enough to not defend the indefensible.

Colorado Ryder · #55 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

So?
This mitigates what your country did and does, when it meddles in other countries?
Just because all those other imperialist powers did what they did, this gives your country carte blanche to do what it likes?
Isn't your country supposed to oppose the imperialism?

And while you're putting the argument about how you were asked by the British to do this or that.........why did your country do it?
Because it was asked?
Because it couldn't refuse?

I don't read any British/french/soviet members talking up their country's involvement in other nations.

Perhaps you missed the part about the US did not want Iran to become communist?

The British did it to preserve the "self-interest". The same thing you accuse the US of doing. Funny how your lot doesn't practice what it preaches.

**limerickman** · #56 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

Dude, you are going to have a very hard time arguing this one. Part of many Americans self identity is a belief that they live in a good country that is the light of the world and can do no wrong. If they are ever questioned about anything the country does, they dredge up WWII as though it excuses what they are doing today. It is also why they are keen to accuse any potential enemy as another Hiltler; it allows them to turn off their brains and imagine they refighting Nazis.

No problem with Americans believing that they live in a good country.

I'm sure that every person in every nation is proud of their country.

What is mildly irratating though is how, for whatever, some Americans assume that everything that they do abroad is right and good and that we all should be grateful for their involvement.

Invariably the fact that their presence in another part of the world is not welcome, seems to be lost on some of them.

Colorado Ryder · #57 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by sogood

At least many of them are smart enough to not defend the indefensible.

All countries have engaged in those activities.

Colorado Ryder · #58 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

What is mildly irratating though is

how someone bashes the US at every twist and turn.

**limerickman** · #59 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

Perhaps you missed the part about the US did not want Iran to become communist?

The British did it to preserve the "self-interest". The same thing you accuse the US of doing. Funny how your lot doesn't practice what it preaches.

Iran would become Communist??????????
The bogeyman that is Communism.
That is a first - even for the likes of you.
I've heard it all now.

It wasn't more to do with oil deposits, per chance??
You know, all that stuff that goes to fuel your economy.

Instead of posting inaccurate stuff about communism and how your country did us all a favour, when you were only doing yourselves a favour, I suggest that you ought to read some history.
And not the type of revisionism which tells you that Iran was under threat of Communism either.

**limerickman** · #60 11-14.-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

All countries have engaged in those activities.

............but you're the only one here who tries to excuse you're country's meddling in other countries.

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