Ride an SUB not an SUV

Matthew T. Russotto said:

Eeyore said:

Mark Hickey said:

Eeyore <[email hidden]> wrote:
>Mark Hickey wrote:
>> Nate Nagel <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> >
>> >http://www.cemt.org/irtad/IRTADPUBLIC/we2.html
>>
>> That pretty much sums it up. The rate per mile in the US is lower
>> than the average of Europe
>
>Killed per 1 billion Veh·Km
>
>Sweden 6.3
>Norway 7.3
>Finland 7.4
>UK 7.6
>Denmark 7.7
>Netherlands 7.7
>Switzerland 8.1
>Germany 8.4
>USA 9.4
>
>
>You were saying ????

Funny that I had commented that IF this were a political issue, people
would distort the statistics to make their point? "Eeyore" (an
anonymous poster) did just that by ONLY taking the European countries
with lower-than-US rates, and snipping out all the rest (which would
clearly increase the European rate above that of the US).

Disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst, and thoroughly proves my
point.

Not really. I stopped at the USA simply because it was the USA that I was making
a comparison with.

It's questionable whether deaths per billion km is the relevant metric though.

Not really. It's deaths due to activity per some measure of the
prevalance of the activity.

Quoted message said:

Annual deaths per million of population makes much more sense in terms of
economic and social impact.

Deaths per population makes no sense, because it fails to take into
account the prevalence of the activity.

But why is that so uniquely relevant ?

Some ppl reckon you should measure death rate per journey.

Graham

Eeyore said:

Mark Hickey said:

Eeyore said:

Mark Hickey wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> That pretty much sums it up. The rate per mile in the US is lower
> than the average of Europe

Killed per 1 billion Veh·Km

Sweden 6.3
Norway 7.3
Finland 7.4
UK 7.6
Denmark 7.7
Netherlands 7.7
Switzerland 8.1
Germany 8.4
USA 9.4

You were saying ????

Funny that I had commented that IF this were a political issue, people
would distort the statistics to make their point? "Eeyore" (an
anonymous poster) did just that by ONLY taking the European countries
with lower-than-US rates, and snipping out all the rest (which would
clearly increase the European rate above that of the US).

Disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst, and thoroughly proves my
point.

Not really. I stopped at the USA simply because it was the USA that I was making
a comparison with.

That's a very lame excuse, IMHO. You present a table of numbers,
claiming they make your point. Then when called on your duplicity,
you say "oh, I just stopped pasting there". I could post the same
data, from the US downward, showing the worst European countries -
would THAT be any less valid than your attempt at proving your point?
As they say, there are three kinds of lies - "lies, damn lies, and
statistics". It's nonsense like the above that makes that SO true.

Quoted message said:

It's questionable whether deaths per billion km is the relevant metric though.
Annual deaths per million of population makes much more sense in terms of
economic and social impact.

The problem with your new position is that your original premise was
that US drivers were lousy drivers. That has NOTHING to do with per
capita, or any other metric EXCEPT accidents / fatalities per mile
driven. If I drive 10x the number of miles you do, and have twice as
many accidents as you, I'm still a 5x better driver than you.

Quoted message said:

In that respect Europe is even further ahead of course.

Keep grasping - you'll eventually convince yourself that you're right.
;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

(Matthew T. Russotto) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> That pretty much sums it up. The rate per mile in the US is lower
>> than the average of Europe
>
>Killed per 1 billion Veh·Km
>
>Sweden 6.3
>Norway 7.3
>Finland 7.4
>UK 7.6
>Denmark 7.7
>Netherlands 7.7
>Switzerland 8.1
>Germany 8.4
>USA 9.4

Note that's the 2002 figure for the US. The 2005 figure is 9.2, up
from 9.1 in 2004. (first increase in some time).

Quoted message said:

The US seems safer when looking at the "All Roads" column, though. I
might suggest staying the hell off the roads of the Czech Republic!
Greece and South Korea, too. Holy smokes.

Having been to Seoul, I would suggest staying off both the roads
and the sidewalks -- the latter often being the realm of motor
scooters.

I lived in Seoul for a couple years, and can say with certainty that
it makes even the worst traffic in the US look tame by comparison. Of
course, I also lived in Beijing for a couple years, which made Seoul
look like a walk in the park. Just because you're riding a bicycle in
the northbound bike lane doesn't meen there isn't a southbound bus (or
donkey cart or tractor) in it.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Fred G. Mackey said:

Bernd Felsche said:

"Fred G. Mackey" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Similarly, however, driving in NYC or LA is very different from driving
in rural Montana or New Mexico. Why are you not objecting to lumping
all of the US together into one statistic?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Almost every country has diverse geography and traffic densities.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The commonality is: One road culture; one jurisdiction.

Quoted message said:

Rural Montana is not in the same jurisdiction as LA or NYC and it's
quite a stretch to say that they share "one road culture".

Different traffic laws? Other sources of _Federal_ road funding?

Do tell.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "If we let things terrify us,
X against HTML mail | life will not be worth living."
/ \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

Bernd Felsche said:

Fred G. Mackey said:

Bernd Felsche said:

"Fred G. Mackey" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Similarly, however, driving in NYC or LA is very different from driving
>in rural Montana or New Mexico. Why are you not objecting to lumping
>all of the US together into one statistic?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Almost every country has diverse geography and traffic densities.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The commonality is: One road culture; one jurisdiction.

Quoted message said:

Rural Montana is not in the same jurisdiction as LA or NYC and it's
quite a stretch to say that they share "one road culture".

Different traffic laws?

I'm sure there are some traffic laws that are different between all
three of those jurisdictions.

Yes, I'm sure many are the same too, just as many of the traffic laws in
Europe are the same.

Quoted message said:

Other sources of _Federal_ road funding?

State and local funding. You may not be aware of this, but Montana is a
separate state from California (where LA is located) and New York (where
NYC is located).

Not all funding of public roads comes from the federal government.

HTH

Quoted message said:

Do tell.

Furthermore "culture" is not solely defined by the government.

A rancher in Montana is not going to drive like the typical commuter in
LA. The typical commuter in NYC is also much more likely to take the
subway than one in LA - or Montana.

Eeyore said:

It's questionable whether deaths per billion km is the relevant
metric though. Annual deaths per million of population makes much
more sense in terms of economic and social impact.

The deaths per km tells you about the safety of the roads wrt
exposure to that risk. The focus should be on reducing the risk
associated with the exposure.

You have to measure the exposure as well as the potential outcomes
of the risk. A fair metric of exposure is vehicle km. Absent actual
odometer reading on a regular basis, that metric is usually derived
from fuel usage; which is based on estimates of actual fuel
consumption.

One can make the other figure "look good" by reducing the exposure.
e.g. ban or ration the sale of motor vehicle fuels; or increase the
availability and attraction to public transport.

Within countries, it's not unusual to see huge variability between
"States" in terms of road deaths per head of population. viz Berlin
cf North Rhine Westphalia. As you say, the figure may be useful for
infrastructure planning, but you have to keep in mind that "road
fatality" is not a contagious disease so epidemiological measures
are notionally inappropriate. (There's some marginal justification
to use that measure in terms of road user attitudes because they
are "contagious".)
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "If we let things terrify us,
X against HTML mail | life will not be worth living."
/ \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

Mark Hickey said:

If I drive 10x the number of miles you do, and have twice as
many accidents as you, I'm still a 5x better driver than you.

Only by that rather linited metric.

Graham

george conklin said:

We don't need 40,000 more dead American per year.

Well, if they were all stupid drivers ...
--
C.R. Krieger
(Wondering why BMW didn't finish higher in Oz.)

On Mar 17, 10:48 am, Eeyore <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

george conklin said:

"Eeyore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

george conklin wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Death rates per 100 million miles are freely available. When I first
> started tracking such rates, they were 10 times higher in Europe.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I rather doubt that.

Quoted message said:

That is because you are ignorant.

No it's because you're an utter [censored].

Here's my figures.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_safety

Where are yours ?

Graham

Quoted message said:

From the above link I went to this other link, surely very interesting

for cyclists...

"With the advent of the motor car, conflict arose between the
increasingly powerful car lobby and the existing population of bicycle
users. By the 1920s and 1930s the UK and German car lobbies initiated
efforts to have cyclists removed from the roads so as to facilitate
motorists and improve the convenience of motoring. In Germany, the
National Socialist regime was committed to promoting the mass use of
private motor cars and viewed the bicycle as an impediment to this
goal. For the National Socialist authorities, the exclusion of cycle
traffic from main routes was viewed as an important pre-requisite to
the attainment of mass-motorisation."

And I see that Nazism is very much alive.
Hail the Fuhrer!

http://www.kaosenlared.net/img2/2006a/22061_bush_fuhrer.jpg

(much more info about bike lanes)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_lane

On Mar 17, 3:08 pm, Eeyore <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Fred G. Mackey said:

Eeyore wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>What you do is add up the numbers and divide by the number of coutries.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>That will give you 11.4

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No.

Quoted message said:

Yes.

NO ! It damn well won't.

If Europeans couldn't drive better with fewer accidents and fatalities than you
damn blowhard cowboys we *should* bow our heads in shame.

No need however !

If American drivers tend their children while driving, chat on the
phone, change their pants (Allstate commercial), watch DVDs, drink
coffee and eat McDonald's and ignore rules of the road they may be the
best drivers around. Or it's simply a mircacle that the carnage is not
worst.

Gerard H. Pille said:

I find it hard to believe americans would behave any different from us europeans. On both sides
you have people obeying and people disregarding traffic regulations. The only thing that keeps
the latter in check is the traffic police, of which there aren't enough.

True. But I think here in the States is more about collecting money
than actually improving the situation. You know, they --the collection
industry-- only cite you for speed (but you go to a lawyer that drops
the points for a certain fee) or they cite you for DUI, which is a
REAL MONEY MAKER. So other factors (LANE DISCIPLINE or CELL-PHONE use)
are ignored, since they really keep THE ACCIDENT INDUSTRY going (tow
truck, ambulance, more lawyers, medical, body shop, insurance, rental
car, new car, etc, etc).

Here's some novel way in which the collection industry works...

"A lot of the drivers complained about the method, calling it
entrapment"

'Leprechaun' Tickets Speeding Florida Drivers

Speeding and aggressive drivers in Orange County needed more than the
luck of the Irish to avoid a traffic citation on Thursday.

The "leprechaun" also held a sign reading, "Watch your speed or it
will cost you your pot of gold."

Motorcycle units stopped violators and issued the traffic citations
after being informed by the "leprechaun" via radio. Officials said
they issued about a ticket per minute.

A lot of the drivers complained about the method, calling it
entrapment

"I think that's just ridiculous," a deputy said. "The (leprechaun)
didn't force anybody to speed."

Orange County sheriff's deputies said the laser gun enabled the on-
duty "leprechaun" to clock a vehicle long before the driver would see
him.

In the past, Orange County sheriff's deputies have targeted speeding
motorists while dressed as an elf, the Grinch and a man waiting for a
bus.

"We do this sort of thing a lot on holidays," Orange County sheriff's
spokesman Jim Solomons said.

http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=35325

"donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Stuff clipped---

Quoted message said:

True. But I think here in the States is more about collecting money
than actually improving the situation. You know, they --the collection
industry-- only cite you for speed (but you go to a lawyer that drops
the points for a certain fee) or they cite you for DUI, which is a
REAL MONEY MAKER. So other factors (LANE DISCIPLINE or CELL-PHONE use)
are ignored, since they really keep THE ACCIDENT INDUSTRY going (tow
truck, ambulance, more lawyers, medical, body shop, insurance, rental
car, new car, etc, etc).

Here's some novel way in which the collection industry works...

"A lot of the drivers complained about the method, calling it
entrapment"

'Leprechaun' Tickets Speeding Florida Drivers

Speeding and aggressive drivers in Orange County needed more than the
luck of the Irish to avoid a traffic citation on Thursday.

The "leprechaun" also held a sign reading, "Watch your speed or it
will cost you your pot of gold."

Motorcycle units stopped violators and issued the traffic citations
after being informed by the "leprechaun" via radio. Officials said
they issued about a ticket per minute.

A lot of the drivers complained about the method, calling it
entrapment

"I think that's just ridiculous," a deputy said. "The (leprechaun)
didn't force anybody to speed."

Orange County sheriff's deputies said the laser gun enabled the on-
duty "leprechaun" to clock a vehicle long before the driver would see
him.

In the past, Orange County sheriff's deputies have targeted speeding
motorists while dressed as an elf, the Grinch and a man waiting for a
bus.

"We do this sort of thing a lot on holidays," Orange County sheriff's
spokesman Jim Solomons said.

http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=35325

I think this is a great idea. Drivers drive way too high above posted limits
and too aggressively. Whatever law enforcement can do to get drivers to back
off is fine with me. In fact, I think ticketing people who break the law
should generate revenue way above what our law enforcement/judicial system
costs. It should be a profit center instead of a break even or high loss
activity. Let people who want to break laws, any laws, pay for the cost of
enforcement AND the legal and penal systems. Instead, the
enforcement/judicial/penal systems are turned into some kind of bleeding
heart, slap on the wrist, tax wasting enterprise that does nothing to curb
lawlessness.

By trying to pay attention, I haven't had a ticket in 37 years since I was a
stoopid 18 year-old and no at-fault accidents, though I've been clobbered in
my car by idiots on their phone and running red lights.

jb

"donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mar 17, 10:48 am, Eeyore <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

george conklin said:

"Eeyore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> george conklin wrote:

Quoted message said:

>> Death rates per 100 million miles are freely available. When I

first

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> started tracking such rates, they were 10 times higher in Europe.

Quoted message said:

> I rather doubt that.

Quoted message said:

That is because you are ignorant.

No it's because you're an utter [censored].

Here's my figures.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_safety

Where are yours ?

Graham

Quoted message said:

From the above link I went to this other link, surely very interesting

for cyclists...

"With the advent of the motor car, conflict arose between the
increasingly powerful car lobby and the existing population of bicycle
users. By the 1920s and 1930s the UK and German car lobbies initiated
efforts to have cyclists removed from the roads so as to facilitate
motorists and improve the convenience of motoring. In Germany, the
National Socialist regime was committed to promoting the mass use of
private motor cars and viewed the bicycle as an impediment to this
goal. For the National Socialist authorities, the exclusion of cycle
traffic from main routes was viewed as an important pre-requisite to
the attainment of mass-motorisation."

And I see that Nazism is very much alive.
Hail the Fuhrer!

Ok, [censored] like bicycles. According to the EU site, your death rate on a
bicycle is 40 times higher than in a car.

Fred G. Mackey said:

donquijote1954 said:

On Mar 16, 6:20 pm, "george conklin" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Eeyore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sorry to say you are wrong. Dead wrong. Something like 25,000 people
would be saved if we were as safe as Sweden.

Ah, but Sweden is NOT representative of Europe as a whole.

Quoted message said:

And if you prefer
something less exotic, even our best partner in crime, the UK, has a
very safe record.

I guess we need lots of speed cameras, right-hand drive in our cars, and
to switch to driving on the left side of the raod then

Quoted message said:

I can research the stats if you want, but I can advance you that
DRIVING FAST ON THE RIGHT LANE (great danger to cycllists) and TALKING
ON THE PHONE (an even greater danger to cyclists) top the list of MOST
DANGEROUS DRIVING HABITS...

Actually, someone on another group claimed the other day that the top 5
causes for accidents involving injuries (or fatalities) were:

31% Inattention
17% Excessive speed
16% Emerging from minor road/driveway without care
09% Excess alcohol or drugs
07% Turning right without care

I'll see if I can get him to provide a specific cite, but he claimed
those figures came from a 2005 report in the UK.

The discussion was OT for the other group and the thread soon died out,
but I argued that most of those could more properly be classified as
incompetent drivers.

I won't argue the other stuff, but I'd say I endorse your last
statement, only that there's A LOT OF RECKLESS DRIVING, that could be
addressed by enforcement. The day I see the authorities cracking down
on phone use, I'd consider it a serious effort to stop the carnage and
mayhem.

On Mar 19, 6:59 pm, "George Conklin" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"donquijote1954" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mar 17, 10:48 am, Eeyore <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

george conklin wrote:
> "Eeyore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > george conklin wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> Death rates per 100 million miles are freely available. When I

first

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> started tracking such rates, they were 10 times higher in Europe.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > I rather doubt that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> That is because you are ignorant.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No it's because you're an utter [censored].

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's my figures.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_safety

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where are yours ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Graham

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From the above link I went to this other link, surely very interesting

for cyclists...

Quoted message said:

"With the advent of the motor car, conflict arose between the
increasingly powerful car lobby and the existing population of bicycle
users. By the 1920s and 1930s the UK and German car lobbies initiated
efforts to have cyclists removed from the roads so as to facilitate
motorists and improve the convenience of motoring. In Germany, the
National Socialist regime was committed to promoting the mass use of
private motor cars and viewed the bicycle as an impediment to this
goal. For the National Socialist authorities, the exclusion of cycle
traffic from main routes was viewed as an important pre-requisite to
the attainment of mass-motorisation."

Quoted message said:

And I see that Nazism is very much alive.
Hail the Fuhrer!

Ok, [censored] like bicycles. According to the EU site, your death rate on a
bicycle is 40 times higher than in a car.-

Would you care to provide a source, or it comes straight from the
Ministry of Propaganda?

Jim Boyer said:

costs. It should be a profit center instead of a break even or high loss
activity. Let people who want to break laws, any laws, pay for the cost of
enforcement AND the legal and penal systems. Instead, the
enforcement/judicial/penal systems are turned into some kind of bleeding
heart, slap on the wrist, tax wasting enterprise that does nothing to curb
lawlessness.

By trying to pay attention, I haven't had a ticket in 37 years since I was a
stoopid 18 year-old and no at-fault accidents, though I've been clobbered in
my car by idiots on their phone and running red lights.

And don't you think the authorities cracking down on the last two
issues would be needed? At least if there was any serious effort to
make our roads safer and not simply make it profitable, which I'm sure
it is, particularly for lawyers.

On Mar 19, 6:59 pm, "George Conklin" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I see that Nazism is very much alive.
Hail the Fuhrer!

Ok, [censored] like bicycles.

I don't think you read right. The Fuhrer hated bikes because
corporations (just like here) had a big say in policy and because
bicycles weren't good for war. But if you don't like to say that the
exclusion of cycle traffic is Nazism, you must admit that it's a
negation of democracy. A real democracy would promote bicycles, or at
least it would allow those who want to do so do it safely by providing
bicycle facilities.

[censored] though wasn't alone...

"When you think of Ford, you think of baseball and apple pie," said
Miriam Kleinman, a researcher with the Washington law firm of Cohen,
Millstein and Hausfeld, who spent weeks examining records at the
National Archives in an attempt to build a slave labor case against
the Dearborn-based company. "You don't think of [censored] having a
portrait of Henry Ford on his office wall in Munich."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

Curtis L. Russell said:

On 20 Mar 2007 10:09:42 -0700, "donquijote1954"

Quoted message said:

The Fuhrer hated bikes because
corporations (just like here) had a big say in policy and because
bicycles weren't good for war.

Not to intrude in your fantasy life, but the above is simply not true.

Is my fantasy life contaminated by real bicycles in real hostile
traffic? Perhaps. It's also a war, you know, but the enemy is the
idiot sitting pretty in an SUV or whatever.

Look at a casualty of this war...

"What I see as a bicyclist is that cars try to get as close as they
can to us, which puts us in great danger," Melanie said.

Another victim of the all-too-common hit and run, wich, if you care,
you can search at Google news under "hit in a bicycle."

Risk On Two Wheels
MIAMI -- What started as a typical Sunday bicycle ride in south Miami-
Dade County ended in a life-changing turn for Wayne Phelps and his
wife, Melanie.

The couple was riding together on their tandem bike with their bicycle
club when they were hit by a van.

http://www.nbc6.net/news/11264720/detail.html

Quoted message said:

Bicycles were used in war on both sides during WW II. Not that there
is much on [censored]'s attitude, one way or the other, except in a Monty
Python skit which I don't remember well.

Folding bikes and bikes that could arguably be called the early
forerunners of mountain bikes were among those used. I don't know if
they were ever actually used, but they also had paratroopers equipped
with folding bikes.

Well, if it was it only had a minor role. And I'm sure it also does
today, but nothing compared to the big toys like tanks or trucks...

(link above)

"General Motors was far more important to the Nazi war machine than
Switzerland," said Bradford Snell, who has spent two decades
researching a history of the world's largest automaker. "Switzerland
was just a repository of looted funds. GM was an integral part of the
German war effort. The Nazis could have invaded Poland and Russia
without Switzerland. They could not have done so without GM."

donquijote1954 said:

The Fuhrer hated bikes because
corporations (just like here) had a big say in policy and because
bicycles weren't good for war.

Not to intrude in your fantasy life, but the above is simply not true.
Bicycles were used in war on both sides during WW II. Not that there
is much on [censored]'s attitude, one way or the other, except in a Monty
Python skit which I don't remember well.

Folding bikes and bikes that could arguably be called the early
forerunners of mountain bikes were among those used. I don't know if
they were ever actually used, but they also had paratroopers equipped
with folding bikes.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

On Mar 20, 2:22 pm, Timberwoof <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

donquijote1954 said:

Monkey society is DEMOCRATIC, lion society is hierarchal, Nazism in
action, or a negation of democracy if you prefer...

There are many different kinds of monkey societies; they vary greatly
between species. If you compare the behaviors of, say, baboons,
chimpanzees, and bonobos, you'll abandon the notion that they are
democratic.

Well, I admit I'm biased in favor of the Bonobos...

"[Common] Chimpanzees and Bonobos both evolved from the same ancestor
that gave rise to humans, and yet the Bonobo is one of the most
peaceful, unaggressive species of mammals living on the earth today.
They have evolved ways to reduce violence that permeate their entire
society. They show us that the evolutionary dance of violence is not
inexorable".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

Quoted message said:

And no, lion societies are not Nazi: lions haven't a clue about
totalitarian nationalism or fascism, either as a political system or as
an economic system in which big industry collaborates with the
government.

Lions don't know about social systems, but social systems know about
lions, and the wannabe Napoleons out there put lions on their heraldy,
flags and surround themselves by lion statues. Hey, it's not entirely
accurate but most people get the message --and it's quite fun!

--As long as there are the Dutch, there will be bicycles!--

Yep, I totally agree. I think the Dutch are a cause for optimism, and
not China a cause for pessimism.

Well, it depends whether America marches on on the road to autocratic
rule or the road toward toward real democracy Dutch-style. See, China
and America can only march on the road of monopoly and consumption
when real democracy would work with people using TRANSPORTATION
OPTIONS, aka MULTIMODAL TRANSPORTATION.

In other words, it all depends on whether the lion or the monkeys are
in charge. 😉