£45 - the value of a cyclist's life

[wafflycat]

"Alistair Gunn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Pyromancer twisted the electrons to say:
>> This particular incident was indeed tragic, but to expect every driver
>> to creep about at a speed which would enable them to stop perfectly
>> regardless of the conditions, even if they encounter a sheet of black
>> ice on an adverse bend or slope, is to live in cloud cuckoo land.
>
> ... and yet rule 206 of the Highway Code includes the following :-
>
> 206 Drive extremely carefully when the roads are icy.
> Drive particularly slowly on bends when skids are more likely.
>
> IMHO given that the driver was (apparently) going at the same sort of
> speed you'd expect for a dry summer afternoon, he was hardly inline with
> rule 206.

And

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#104

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/12.htm#124

But apparently none of that matters :-(

 

[Adam Lea]

"Dave Larrington" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, who-cares-
> [email protected] says...
>> David Hansen came up with the following;:
>>
>> > Incorrect. The consequences of driving a motor car into a group of
>> > cyclists are perfectly foreseeable.
>>
>> The car wasn't driven into any cyclists, it was out of control.
>
> And it it been driven with due care and attention, at a speed
> appropriate to the prevailing conditions, it wouldn't have been.
>

I once hit ice and slid travelling at less than walking pace as I was
approaching a T junction. If the road was sloping down instead of up then I
would probably have slid right into the A29 with nasty consequences. A slide
can happen no matter how carefully you drive. The only way to guarentee not
to slide is to take the day off work every time there is a ground frost.

 

[Paul Weaver]

Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> Paul Weaver wrote:
> > Dave Larrington wrote:
> >> And it it been driven with due care and attention, at a speed
> >> appropriate to the prevailing conditions, it wouldn't have been.
> >
> > Either the CPS or court, who have a lot more information than us, have
> > decided that he was driving with due care and attention, at a speed
> > appropriate to the prevailing conditions, otherwise he would be facing
> > a jail sentance for driving without due care and attention, and
> > killing people in the process.
>
> Not necessarily true. All the CPS have decided is that there is insufficient
> evidence for them to be able to secure a decision from (a) selected
> member(s) of the general public that he was driving without due care and
> attention.
>
> That's quite a long way short of deciding he was applying due care and
> attention.

He's completely innocent of wrong doing until proven guilty in a court
of law. If there's not enough evidence then he's innocent, that's how
our justice system works. If it didn't work like that, the
ramifications would be much more serious than a few dead people.

 

[Ian Smith]

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 00:17:37 +0100, Adam Lea <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Dave Larrington" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > And it it been driven with due care and attention, at a speed
> > appropriate to the prevailing conditions, it wouldn't have been.
> >
>
> I once hit ice and slid travelling at less than walking pace as I was
> approaching a T junction. If the road was sloping down instead of up then I
> would probably have slid right into the A29 with nasty consequences. A slide
> can happen no matter how carefully you drive. The only way to guarentee not
> to slide is to take the day off work every time there is a ground frost.

The issue is not a slow slide - the issue is sliding with sufficient
force to kill four cyclists (throwing some of them a considerable
distance) and seriously injure several more.

As was stated, if the car had been driven at a speed appropriate to
the conditions, the terrible outcome would not have occurred.

regards, Ian SMith
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[Ian Smith]

On 5 Aug 2006 01:51:49 -0700, Paul Weaver <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> >
> > That's quite a long way short of deciding he was applying due care and
> > attention.
>
> He's completely innocent of wrong doing until proven guilty in a court
> of law.

Don't be stupid.

He's guilty of wrong doing as soon as he does wrong - teh courts are
not arbiters of wrong. Lying is wrong - the fact that 99% of lies
never get to a court of law doen't mean that it's right to lie.

He's innocent of a criminal offence until proven guilty in a court of
law (for most, but not all offences), but that's a very different
thing.

regards, Ian SMith
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[Colin McKenzie]

Adam Lea wrote:

> I once hit ice and slid travelling at less than walking pace as I was
> approaching a T junction. If the road was sloping down instead of up then I
> would probably have slid right into the A29 with nasty consequences. A slide
> can happen no matter how carefully you drive. The only way to guarentee not
> to slide is to take the day off work every time there is a ground frost.

Yebbut the key word in your statement is 'slowly'. I've done something
similar, at similar speed. I slid into a kerb and bent a wheel.

In icy conditions, you slow down more than usual for corners. That's
appropriate driving for the conditions.

WRT this driver, would he have slid at 30? Would he have slid as far?
Would some of the cyclists have had time to get out of the way? Would
those hit have died?

Let's say a significant number, 5 or more, cars passed the same spot,
without sliding across the road, before the collision and after the
surface froze. In that case, even by the low standards of other UK
drivers, this one was driving more recklessly, and a prosecution for
careless driving, at least, should succeed. The policeman's words
after the collision might be what made that impossible.

Colin McKenzie

--
On average in Britain, you're more likely to get a head injury walking
a mile than cycling it.
So why aren't we all exhorted to wear walking helmets?

 

[Gareth A.]

On 03 Aug 2006 21:26:07 GMT, Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 3 Aug 2006, [email protected] <> wrote:
>
>> All that having been said - the facts are still, that on the awful day
>> in question it would not have mattered one jot if he had just driven
>> away from NTS with a full set of new rubber all round - Any car at
>> normal road speed would still have gone out of control when all four
>> wheels suddenly encountered ice from a dry surface because of the
>> natural consequences of rural drainage flowing across a country road on
>> an icy morning.
>
>Oh. I hadn't realised every single car going round the bend that
>morning had crossed the road, bounced up the bank, ricocheted across
>the wall and wedged into the opposite verge. Funny the news reports
>hadn't included that, and only saw fit to mention that some other
>vehicles had been heard to skid a bit.

err...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4596500.stm

"Police wanted crash road gritted
....
North Wales Police Chief Inspector Martyn Schlangen said there had
been a minor accident at the same spot about an hour before the fatal
collision and that the police had made a request for the council to
re-grit the road.
....
It was gritted at approximately 6.20 on Saturday evening and had been
the subject of similar treatment on the three days prior to Saturday."

 

[Ian Smith]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006, Gareth A <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 03 Aug 2006 21:26:07 GMT, Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On 3 Aug 2006, [email protected] <> wrote:
> >
> >> All that having been said - the facts are still, that on the awful day
> >> in question it would not have mattered one jot if he had just driven
> >> away from NTS with a full set of new rubber all round - Any car at
> >> normal road speed would still have gone out of control when all four
> >> wheels suddenly encountered ice from a dry surface because of the
> >> natural consequences of rural drainage flowing across a country road on
> >> an icy morning.
> >
> >Oh. I hadn't realised every single car going round the bend that
> >morning had crossed the road, bounced up the bank, ricocheted across
> >the wall and wedged into the opposite verge. Funny the news reports
> >hadn't included that, and only saw fit to mention that some other
> >vehicles had been heard to skid a bit.
>
> err...
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4596500.stm
>
> "Police wanted crash road gritted
> ...
> North Wales Police Chief Inspector Martyn Schlangen said there had
> been a minor accident at the same spot about an hour before the fatal
> collision and that the police had made a request for the council to
> re-grit the road.
> ...
> It was gritted at approximately 6.20 on Saturday evening and had been
> the subject of similar treatment on the three days prior to Saturday."


Exactly - a few other cars had skidded a bit. Just as I said.

Jimmygee maintains it must have been physically impossible for any
vehicle to drive round the corner without catastrophically losing
control and ricocheting back and forth across the road.

One wonders why since, as he (and apparently you) believes, the road
was completely impassable to vehicles, the police didn't close it.
Can you explain?

regards, Ian SMith
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