1 minute power and Vo2max

[11ring]

Very simple question- to what extent is 1 minute power affected by V02max power, if at all.

I am asking this because I have a very inverted V shaped power curve, and wondering if any of my 5 minute power can or does translate into a 'base' for 1 minute efforts.

Obviously I already plan on doing shorter intervals- and I would infer from the large ratio of 1 minute to 5 minute power that the larger part of 1 minute power is actually anaerobic, and thus largely independent of V02 max.

Any thoughts ?

 

[frenchyge]

There is still a strong anaerobic contribution for a single 5min max effort (ie, it's not truly a VO2max test), which provides the basis for the inverted V profile.

Is your question about VO2max specifically, or about 5min max performance?

 

[11ring]

There is still a strong anaerobic contribution for a single 5min max effort (ie, it's not truly a VO2max test), which provides the basis for the inverted V profile.

Is your question about VO2max specifically, or about 5min max performance?

I suppose the question is - if my 5 minute is improving can i expect the 1 minute power to go up as well.

I figure that the 1 minute power is predominantly aerobic, but with a significant aerobic component. I am assuming that they are additive- as in

1 minute power = P Vo2 max + Anaerobic capacity( 1 min)

Say my pV02max is 400 watts, and I can anaerobically produce an extra 400 watts, this will give me an 800 watt 1 minute power- with all things being equal, if my Pvo2max improves to 420 watts, then it would appear that my 1 minute power will go to 820 watts ?

This is only a very rough hypothesis. If the two components do not add up like this then the effect may be very different.

I think Alex Simmonds produced a paper on the power components of the pursuit, I am wondering if the same concepts can be applied to the Kilo ?

 

[doctorSpoc]

I suppose the question is - if my 5 minute is improving can i expect the 1 minute power to go up as well.

I figure that the 1 minute power is predominantly aerobic, but with a significant aerobic component. I am assuming that they are additive- as in

1 minute power = P Vo2 max + Anaerobic capacity( 1 min)

Say my pV02max is 400 watts, and I can anaerobically produce an extra 400 watts, this will give me an 800 watt 1 minute power- with all things being equal, if my Pvo2max improves to 420 watts, then it would appear that my 1 minute power will go to 820 watts ?

This is only a very rough hypothesis. If the two components do not add up like this then the effect may be very different.

I think Alex Simmonds produced a paper on the power components of the pursuit, I am wondering if the same concepts can be applied to the Kilo ?

doesn't work like that... the thing you have to understand it that at no power are you completely aerobic or anaerobic... it's just a matter of degree. in fact if you improve your threshold you will likely improve 5min power and 1min power, it's just a matter of different degree... improve VO2max and you will increase threshold power, 5min power and degree 1min power.. VO2max is primarily genetically set and all you can do pretty much is to maximize all that you were born with.

 

[11ring]

doesn't work like that... the thing you have to understand it that at no power are you completely aerobic or anaerobic... it's just a matter of degree. in fact if you improve your threshold you will likely improve 5min power and 1min power, it's just a matter of different degree... improve VO2max and you will increase threshold power, 5min power and degree 1min power.. VO2max is primarily genetically set and all you can do pretty much is to maximize all that you were born with.

Did you even read what I wrote- becuase your argument is very similar to my hypothesis.

Note that my whole argument is premised on the concept that 1 minute power has an anaerobic and aerobic component.

Hence my hypothesis that training either component should realize some gains.

You say exactly the same thing when you claim 'improve VO2max and you will increase threshold power, 5min power and degree 1min power'.

Did you misunderstand me or is there some subtle, or perhaps poorly expressed disagreement I am missing ?

BTW I am not having a go at you !

 

[iliveonnitro]

Source: METHODICAL APPROACH TO TRAINING

 

[frenchyge]

I suppose the question is - if my 5 minute is improving can i expect the 1 minute power to go up as well?

I'd say yes, because there's still an anaerobic link between 5min and 1min power.

The chart here shows that level 5 and even level 4 training can improve anaerobic capacity through greater ATP stores and more "lactate tolerance."
Tempo Training | FasCat Coaching :: Cycling Coach for all Cyclists

 

[11ring]

Source: METHODICAL APPROACH TO TRAINING

Thanks for that, from this graph it appears that 1 minute effort is 1/3 aerobic. 2/3 anaerobic.

 

[doctorSpoc]

Did you even read what I wrote- becuase your argument is very similar to my hypothesis.

Note that my whole argument is premised on the concept that 1 minute power has an anaerobic and aerobic component.

Hence my hypothesis that training either component should realize some gains.

You say exactly the same thing when you claim 'improve VO2max and you will increase threshold power, 5min power and degree 1min power'.

Did you misunderstand me or is there some subtle, or perhaps poorly expressed disagreement I am missing ?

BTW I am not having a go at you !

it's hard to answer your question because you ask a question and then your throw in all these things that are wrong and the odd thing that is right periferally...

1) to your 1st question in your original post... yes an increase in 5min or VO2max power (which are two different things) will likely affect 1 min power

2) it seems that you think that VO2max power is purely aerobic... it isn't and either is 1min power purely anaerobic...

3) 5min power has a large anaerobic component so for sure an improvement to 5min power would likely see an improvement in 1 min power which is largely but not completely anaerobic

4) 5min power and VO2max are not some how equivalent.. it's just that intervals of 5mins in length help to adapt VO2max.. i.e. you can't infer anything necessarily about your VO2max or your VO2max power from your 5min power

5) when i was saying it doesn't work like that i was mostly referring to your idea about adding pVO2max to 1min power... power at VO2max already has an anaerobic component in it so if you added that to your 1min power you will be adding in some portion of your anaerobic capacity twice (not sure how literal you were being here?)

6) if you could somehow separate out the anaerobic (not equal to 1min power) and aerobic (not equal to VO2max or 5min power) contribution to your power over 1min you might be able to add them together, but i'm not sure how one would do that...

as i said it's hard to answer your question because you seem to not have a good grasp of the concepts in your hypothesis...

 

[frost]

1 minute power = P Vo2 max + Anaerobic capacity( 1 min)

[/QUOTE ]

From monod/critical power model:

x minute power = Critical Power + Anaerobic capacity / (x * 60)

However it has been stated that the power/duration is not linear and the equation above is not very reliable especially in short durations.

Say my pV02max is 400 watts, and I can anaerobically produce an extra 400 watts, this will give me an 800 watt 1 minute power- with all things being equal, if my Pvo2max improves to 420 watts, then it would appear that my 1 minute power will go to 820 watts ?

Any p VO2Max contains significant portion of AWC, that's why there isn't just one p VO2Max.

But at the end of the day: more aerobic power --> better 1 minute power and on the other hand more AWC --> better 5 minute. Ratio of aerobic and anaerobic is dependend on your AWC which I think can vary roughly in range of 15000-45000 J (I am not any kind of physiology specialist so take with grain of salt, the numbers are just to give the picture of how variable it is and what kind of range we are talking about)

 

[frost]

VO2max is primarily genetically set and all you can do pretty much is to maximize all that you were born with.

Doesn't that apply to everything ?

 

[11ring]

6) if you could somehow separate out the anaerobic (not equal to 1min power) and aerobic (not equal to VO2max or 5min power) contribution to your power over 1min you might be able to add them together, but i'm not sure how one would do that...

as i said it's hard to answer your question because you seem to not have a good grasp of the concepts in your hypothesis...[/QUOTE]

Okay, I have garbled 5 min and Vo2max power. This is because I have very good reason to believe that my (in comparison to other ****-weak power outputs) relatively high 5 min power is from a high pVo2max/ P(lactic threshold) ratio, as opposed to a high AWC. This is partly a guess from a low 1 min/5 min ratio and high 5 min/60 min ratio, and partly from direct medical testing.

To clarify, the what I am trying to do is exactly what you describe in your point 6 above. So to rephrase the question:

If 5 minute power is high, or increases due to an increase in the aerobic component,(as in through training specifically designed to train aerobic capacity or V02max, and as opposed to an increase in anaerobic capacity) will this mean that the aerobic component of the 1 minute power will be high, or grow. If so, by how much ?

Or to state it in different terms, is it possible to significantly increase 1 minute power independently of improvements in AWC ( i.e through a significant increase in the aerobic component of 1 min power)?

 

[frost]

To clarify, the what I am trying to do is exactly what you describe in your point 6 above. So to rephrase the question:

If 5 minute power is high, or increases due to an increase in the aerobic component,(as in through training specifically designed to train aerobic capacity or V02max, and as opposed to an increase in anaerobic capacity) will this mean that the aerobic component of the 1 minute power will be high, or grow. If so, by how much ?

Or to state it in different terms, is it possible to significantly increase 1 minute power independently of improvements in AWC ( i.e through a significant increase in the aerobic component of 1 min power)?

I suggest you google and/or search the forum for monod or critical power model. Here's a link to very short and simple presentation of the topic http://velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf

 

[11ring]

I suggest you google and/or search the forum for monod or critical power model. Here's a link to very short and simple presentation of the topic http://velo-fit.com/articles/critical-power.pdf

I am familiar with that concept and method, but in my case it gives a massive overestimation of short term power output. This is becuase its assumes a somewhat linear power curve, and cannot model inverted V power profiles. It assumes that all of the increase in say, 5 minute power, over 20 minute power, is from an increase in the anaerobic component, rather than0 the power difference between the aerobic component at near maximal (Vo2max) aerobic capacity and the aerobic component at sustainable (LT) aerobic capacity.

I would imagine that this formula would also not work for riders like, say Wiggins, who apparently produced his pursuit power with a very large aerobic component- as in it would predict a high AWC and a big 1 minute power which in Wiggins case would be illusory as he could not get a start in for a Kilo.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Thanks for that, from this graph it appears that 1 minute effort is 1/3 aerobic. 2/3 anaerobic.

I think it's more like 50:50 or 60:40 (anaerobic : aerobic) but there's a lot of leeway at this duration.

I prefer this one from one of Andy Coggan's presentations (it's probably in a couple but I think this was from the one about the specfic demands and prep for Individual Pursuit), which can be found on the Fixed Gear Fever forum:

 

[doctorSpoc]

Doesn't that apply to everything ?

yes and no, and again it a matter of degree...

VO2max is dictated mostly by physical attributes i.e. size of heart, surface area of lungs, diameter of aorta etc.. most of these things that most affect VO2max are not going to change at all from training... where as something like sustainable power which is dependent partially dependent on VO2max but also very much dependent on metabolic capacity etc.. is very trainable month to month and year over year... you see a guy like former world TT champ Abraham Olano who has a very low VO2max by pro standards having very high sustainable power... so VO2max isn't the end all and be all it's made out to be..

 

[doctorSpoc]

6) if you could somehow separate out the anaerobic (not equal to 1min power) and aerobic (not equal to VO2max or 5min power) contribution to your power over 1min you might be able to add them together, but i'm not sure how one would do that...

as i said it's hard to answer your question because you seem to not have a good grasp of the concepts in your hypothesis...

Okay, I have garbled 5 min and Vo2max power. This is because I have very good reason to believe that my (in comparison to other ****-weak power outputs) relatively high 5 min power is from a high pVo2max/ P(lactic threshold) ratio, as opposed to a high AWC. This is partly a guess from a low 1 min/5 min ratio and high 5 min/60 min ratio, and partly from direct medical testing.

To clarify, the what I am trying to do is exactly what you describe in your point 6 above. So to rephrase the question:

If 5 minute power is high, or increases due to an increase in the aerobic component,(as in through training specifically designed to train aerobic capacity or V02max, and as opposed to an increase in anaerobic capacity) will this mean that the aerobic component of the 1 minute power will be high, or grow. If so, by how much ?

Or to state it in different terms, is it possible to significantly increase 1 minute power independently of improvements in AWC ( i.e through a significant increase in the aerobic component of 1 min power)?

what is your procedure for getting at your 1min power? if you are getting it from mass start racing data, you don't know your 1min power. from my experience 1min power max from racing data underestimates your real 1min power... you need to do dedicated testing for 1min power when you are motivated and rested to get your real 1min power

 

[frost]

yes and no, and again it a matter of degree...

VO2max is dictated mostly by physical attributes i.e. size of heart, surface area of lungs, diameter of aorta etc.. most of these things that most affect VO2max are not going to change at all from training... where as something like sustainable power which is dependent partially dependent on VO2max but also very much dependent on metabolic capacity etc.. is very trainable month to month and year over year... you see a guy like former world TT champ Abraham Olano who has a very low VO2max by pro standards having very high sustainable power... so VO2max isn't the end all and be all it's made out to be..

Not trying to start an argument here but the determinants and VO2Max respond to training. Heart (especially the left ventricular) grows (both dilatation and wall hypertrophy), blood volume (and total hemoglobin volume) increase very quickly after starting training. These are early adaptations and stall also very early meaning that a trained athlete sees very little improvement but it is wrong to say that VO2max does not respond to training.

In addition I don't think that the magnitude of change or time span for improvements means that it is more or less determined by genetics than say eg. (infamous) efficiency or even LT. (Olano must have - in addition to high LT - had phenomenal efficiency)

But at the end of the day you are right that VO2max isn't the end all and be all it's made out to be..

 

[doctorSpoc]

Not trying to start an argument here but the determinants and VO2Max respond to training. Heart (especially the left ventricular) grows (both dilatation and wall hypertrophy), blood volume (and total hemoglobin volume) increase very quickly after starting training. These are early adaptations and stall also very early meaning that a trained athlete sees very little improvement but it is wrong to say that VO2max does not respond to training.

In addition I don't think that the magnitude of change or time span for improvements means that it is more or less determined by genetics than say eg. (infamous) efficiency or even LT. (Olano must have - in addition to high LT - had phenomenal efficiency)

But at the end of the day you are right that VO2max isn't the end all and be all it's made out to be..

except for the LT comments I pretty much agree with what you've written (LT is a myth..just doesn't exist, can't exist). why I mention no year over year change etc. trained athelete does 3-4 weeks with some VO2max training and you max out your VO2max... small but significant addapation very, very quickly.

 

[frost]

except for the LT comments I pretty much agree with what you've written (LT is a myth..just doesn't exist, can't exist). why I mention no year over year change etc. trained athelete does 3-4 weeks with some VO2max training and you max out your VO2max... small but significant addapation very, very quickly.

LT above just short for cellular metabolism not as "Threshold". We agree to agree