10 min. NP higher than 5 min. NP?

[daveryanwyoming]

Couldn't be as simple as the first 5 minutes were at a steadier Iso-power and the second 5 minutes were more sprint and recover?...

I assume you're saying the second half (sprint and recover) has a higher NP driving the 10 minute NP up. In that case your peak 5 minute NP would be the second half.

But I think you're right in terms of WKO+ reporting a higher longer peak. The best 5 minute, 10 minute, 20 minute, etc. are based on AP and then an NP is reported for efforts of 5 minutes and longer. So even though the second 5 minutes in your scenario represents the peak 5 minute NP the 5 minute peak detection is based on AP which is higher in the first 5 minutes.

If the best efforts were NP based (as Andy pointed out when talking about a custom NP based mean maximal curve oh so many posts ago) instead of AP based I don't think you'd see longer efforts yielding higher NP.

Good insight Jeff,
-Dave

 

[jstock]

But the OP's issue is more likely as Andy pointed out that the stats (including NP) shown are for the max Avg power segment but that does not necessarily coincide with max NP segment for any given duration.

Yes.

Couldn't be as simple as the first 5 minutes were at a steadier Iso-power and the second 5 minutes were more sprint and recover?

I assume you're saying the second half (sprint and recover) has a higher NP driving the 10 minute NP up. In that case your peak 5 minute NP would be the second half.

It was commuting through ice and snow

I guess the first 5 minutes the power was kind of steady and the second 5 minutes going a bit carefully over rough ice and then something like a sprint.

Glad I could give you something to think about for a while...

/J

 

[frenchyge]

If the best efforts were NP based (as Andy pointed out when talking about a custom NP based mean maximal curve oh so many posts ago) instead of AP based I don't think you'd see longer efforts yielding higher NP.

Like this mean max chart of the NP channel for a L5 interval workout?

 

[jetnjeff]

I assume you're saying the second half (sprint and recover) has a higher NP driving the 10 minute NP up. In that case your peak 5 minute NP would be the second half.

But I think you're right in terms of WKO+ reporting a higher longer peak. The best 5 minute, 10 minute, 20 minute, etc. are based on AP and then an NP is reported for efforts of 5 minutes and longer. So even though the second 5 minutes in your scenario represents the peak 5 minute NP the 5 minute peak detection is based on AP which is higher in the first 5 minutes.

If the best efforts were NP based (as Andy pointed out when talking about a custom NP based mean maximal curve oh so many posts ago) instead of AP based I don't think you'd see longer efforts yielding higher NP.

Good insight Jeff,
-Dave

Thanks,

I couldn't let it go and used an app that I think Rap made to try different combos (can't yet do NP in a spread sheet

). For the 1st 5 minutes of attatchment, the AP = 256.2 and NP was 280. The entire 10 minutes AP = 248.6 with an NP of 343( even higher than the OPs 10 min NP with the 10 min AP and 5 min AP-NP)

 

[Alex Simmons]

I'm guessing Alex's computes the rolling average power on a second-by-second basis, which makes a difference (and is more correct).

Yes and you need 30sec of data before you can compute the first rolling 30 sec average, and hence 5min 30 sec of data before you can compute the first "rolling" 5 min NP, which I then computed for each second through to the 10 min (600 second) mark. The max 5min NP value attained this way is less than the 10 min NP.

However - you only need to add 12 seconds at 350W at the end of the second "effort" in order for the 5 min max NP to equal 10min NP and after that 5min NP > 10 min NP. Both rise after the 600 sec mark in this scenario but the 5min NP rises faster than the 10 min NP.

The original 10min NP is of course calculated on the 1/4 power of the average of the 9min30sec of data points for which there is a rolling 30sec average power. I don't know for sure but I'd guess that 10 min NP calcs would typically use the past 10 minutes of rolling average data where that is available. Maybe you can't actually have a 10 min NP unless you have 10min30 sec of data?

BTW - if you do add 30 sec of 350W to the end of the 10 min, 10 min NP max does rise a fraction to 318W. Meanwhile, the 5 min NP max goes up to 323W.

OK, that's a few more minutes of lunchtime eaten up