10 reasons to hate lance

[limerickman]

Originally posted by DiabloScott
I shall rephrase - I contend (strike "know") that you dislike (strike "hate") Lance Armstrong, despite your statement to the contrary.

Others on this board have conjectured your anti-Americanism, not I. Just making that clear.

Your criticism is not objective, it's demagoguery and ignores the overwhelming body of exculpatory evidence. This is not a personal attack on you but an attack on your rhetoric and logic which are pathetic.

I call on you to admit your prejudice.

I'm afraid that your semantic play on words, in your last message,
doesn't quantify a retraction of your original contention that I hate
Lance Armstrong.

You have, for whatever reason, decided to publicly attribute words to messages which I posted on this thread.
I asked you to retract the malicious and slanderous allegations that you put to my earlier messages.
You chose not withdraw these false charges.

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by birdman23
You're welcome. I pay compliments when compliments are due. So you say you want to believe but you can't...
...what will make it believable for you?

What will make it believable for me is for me to completely disregard 1992-1996 and to disregard his illness.
But I cannot look at his achievements since 1998, without thinking about his career and his illness prior to 1998.

Objectively, if you look at post 1998 without looking at pre-1998,
you see a career of great, great achievement and considerable
sacrifice.
If you look at pre-1998, you see two years of cancer treatment
and wins in one day races.
Objectively, the gap from pre-1998 to post 1998, is massive.
Emotionally, I would like to believe that yes, here was someone
who defeated very great odds and did the impossible.
But what he achieved since 1998 is impossible when you take in to account everything that happened prior to 1998.
I feel that it is really matter of faith to accept what we've seen
post 1998.
I simply don't have that level of faith.

 

[DiabloScott]

Originally posted by limerickman
I'm afraid that your semantic play on words, in your last message,
doesn't quantify a retraction of your original contention that I hate
Lance Armstrong.

You have, for whatever reason, decided to publicly attribute words to messages which I posted on this thread.
I asked you to retract the malicious and slanderous allegations that you put to my earlier messages.
You chose not withdraw these false charges.

Well, I see my lack of subtlety wasn't lost on you. I sought only to remove any idea that I was attacking your character - your laughable argument is my only target.

I'll refrain from repeating the list of questions you haven't answered yet.

 

[bktx1]

I am from Dallas, and I witnessed Lance as a kid destroy a field of professional triathletes. He is a phenomenal athlete. He could be world class in any number of aerobic sports. I think that Lance pre 96 was still relatively young to the world of professional cycling. I think the cancer thing and the weight loss thing taught him something about enduring pain and suffering, and then he just matured as a cyclist. I would agree with a number of posters that he would have been outed a long time ago if he were using sports-enhancing drugs. The guy is just an animal . Europeans have just grown soft in their pillow-cushioned welfare states, and have forgotten what sacrifice, commitment, and dedication are all about. (of course, the same charge could be thrown at the U.S.) LOL!

 

[bktx1]

Birdman,

I salute your wife, for overcoming lymphoma, and I salute you for sticking by her.

My wife has severe MS, and having to take care of her prevents me from doing the training and racing that I would like to.

But you and I have our priorities straight. It is a blessing to understand that.

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by bktx1
Europeans have just grown soft in their pillow-cushioned welfare states, and have forgotten what sacrifice, commitment, and dedication are all about. (of course, the same charge could be thrown at the U.S.) LOL!

bktx1 :
A bit of a generalisation on your part concerning your statement
about us Europeans - don't you think ?
Sacrifice, commitment and dedication is the lot of professional cyclists regardless of whether they're European, American or Australian.

 

[less'go]

Europeans, Americans, Chinese,cwhatever, everybody has sacrifices to make and wherever you go there are hardworking, dedicated people, and there are slackers. But Im sure you all already knew that.

Of course, this thread is flaming, so go ahead and sling it around... Flaming is a 21st century art form ;-)

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by less'go
Europeans, Americans, Chinese,cwhatever, everybody has sacrifices to make and wherever you go there are hardworking, dedicated people, and there are slackers. But Im sure you all already knew that.

Of course, this thread is flaming, so go ahead and sling it around... Flaming is a 21st century art form ;-)

I agree - but certain people posting to this thread are intent on
trying to reduce the subject matter, of this thread, in to a bar room brawl.
They've let their emotions carry them away and they simply refuse
to countenance any view that conflicts with their ideology.

Less emotion and more analysis is what's needed : not cheap shots for over emotive fans.

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by butcher2000
people, aren't you tired of lance? don't you have that deja-vu feeling for the last years, mainly in july ...? don't you get sick of that feeling? personally, i'm on the verge of beginning to hate him, and it'll be a celebration that day when his era will end. ok, it's admirable to recover from cancer, and all that, but, on the other side, i don't think that he really deserves all the admiration he receives. and, especially, i don't think he deserves to be but near the "monsters" of cycling. so...give me 10 reasons for not liking lance.

Because no matter how hard I try, I'll never be able to ride like Lance. He's too young, too strong, too amazing and too driven for me to ever get close.

 

[birdman23]

Originally posted by bktx1
Birdman,

I salute your wife, for overcoming lymphoma, and I salute you for sticking by her.

My wife has severe MS, and having to take care of her prevents me from doing the training and racing that I would like to.

But you and I have our priorities straight. It is a blessing to understand that.

BKTX1,

Thank you but really don't salute me. You can do a double salute for my wife! She is truly amazing. I don't know how she endured it all but I am sure glad she did. I am truly a blessed man.

Sorry to hear about your wife's MS. Hang in there and never give up cause I know how difficult it can be. Granted we haven't had to deal with MS but I believe dealing with any serious health problem is principally the same. It's a battle I'm sure but one that is well worth the fight.

My wife has been cancer free for 10 years now but she still has numerous other health problems (as a result of the cancer) that we deal with on a near daily basis. Consequently my riding has been severely limited as well but that's OK. I love to ride but I love her more so it's worth the sacrifice. And I know that as time goes on I will be able to ride more because she does better with each passing year and continues to get healthier.

In fact, I think I have her talked into getting a tandem so she can start to experience our wonderful sport first hand. Obviously she knows how to ride a bike but she hasn't ridden one since she was a child. I have her completely obsessed with the TDF now as well. When we first met she thought I was crazy because I had shaved legs and liked to wear spandex. Not the usual image for a guy who is 6'4" and 205 lbs. However after I started explaining all of the intricacies and strategy that goes into cycling she became more interested. Life is good, what can I say.

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by mjolnir2k
Let's see:
1. He trains harder than his competitors EVERY YEAR
2. He has proven that he has the heart of a champion in the 2003 tour
3. He provides motivation and inspration to a multitude of bikers and cancer patients
4. He represents the Tour with class and dignity
5. He goes out of his way to absorb the French culture to make them feel like they are a part of their own national race
6. He has assembled and manages an unbelievable team, where each rider will give any sacrafice for him in the pursuit of the win (Which must be a demonstartion of his personality)
7. He spares no expense (physically or mentally) to better himself every year
8. He gives of his time whenever possible to provide support for many cancer related foundations and causes
9. He does not WHINE when things don't go his way (Something David Millar could learn)
10. He is a sportsman who understands the importance and history of the Tour and does evertything he can to be a true champion of the sport and yet even as a 5 time champion of Le Tour, is not above giving his support to his teammates in other races during the season.

Yeah, I can see why you hate him.....

ps. If Jan had been more committed to training and fitness over the last 5 years (instead of off season parties and trying to "ride himself into shape" over the first week of the Tour), maybe you would have seen a different champion, but the fact remains...he wasn't !

Maybe you should be a better student of the sport before you spout off with hateful invectives!

GO LANCE...#6

Well said! I'll second that.

(Nice wheels by the way. Love mine)

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by limerickman
I wish I could be convinced that what we have seen from Lance Armstrong since 1999, has been the result of hardwork.
I am not convinced that what we have seen is solely the result of hardwork.

...What pisses me off about Armstrong is that if he is clean - and I know he hasn't failed a drug test - how come he can cycle the
TDF faster than his so-called compatriots who in the 1990's were
up to the eyeballs in EPO-HGH drugs ?...
One other point, 1989 TDF covered approximately the same distance as the 2003 TDF.
If you compare Lance's average speed to Greg LeMond's average speed : lance went 3.1 Kilometres per hour, faster for every kilometre of this years TDF route, than Greg did in 1989.

Perhaps he can do it because he's stronger, has a freakish VO2 Max, is more driven mentally than just about any cyclist in history and trains all year long rather than 3 to 6 months like most of the others.

Notice Richard Virenque, who was doping in 1998 with the rest of the Festina team managed to take another polka-dot jersey in 2003 without the use of drugs.

As for riding 3 k/mph faster than Lemond for every kilometer, Ullrich wasn't far behind Lance and Vinokourov wasn't that far behind Ullrich. Does that mean that they're both doping too?

Sorry, but I've got to believe that it's the motivation, the hard work, and the genetics. Most cyclists could never be in the Tour no matter how hard we try because genetics does play a major role when you start talking about the elite of the elite. Lance was dealt some fine strands of cycling DNA and he didn't waste them.

 

[limerickman]

I am currently awaiting delivery of some statistical analysis of for the 1989
GregLeMond TDF route and a comparison to 2003 Armstrong TDF route.
While awaiting this data, a colleague has kindly reminded me of the
excellent site www.cyclinghalloffame.com.

For all the overly emotive Armstrong fans, this site provides some more objective analysis regarding their hero and illustrates the dearth in his palmares and his lack of cycling pedigree.

This site applies a rating to all the major cycling races in the cycling calendar.
Applying an equal rating each year to the placement of cyclists,
this site calculates that Eddy Merckx has a rating 21,730 points.
Way, way ahead of Hinault, Anquetil and Indurain etc.
Our Texan friend has a rating of 6930 points and is rated at position 10 on the alltime list, as weighted on the selection of race results in the cycling calendar.
With 1200 points weighted for a TDF victory - 6000 points accumulated in the TDF, account for 86% of his overall rating.
Factor in his (one day) victory in the World Championships (weighted at 400 points)
and you have a total contribution to his palmares of 92.3%.
The other 530 points come from the rest of his, er, impressive palmares.
WWW.Cyclinghalloffame.com shows, in statistically terms, what I have said all
along : 1992-1996 casts a long shadow over the Texan’s career from 1998- onwards.
From his debut in 1992, he managed to contribute only 530 points to his all time rating.

Jan Ullrich, by comparison, is listed at 19 place on the all time list : at 5300 points.
His quality palmares contains victories in the TDF, Vuelta, his 5 second place placements in the TDF, Olympic Road Race title.
In addition, if you analysis his palmares, his results are consistent from his debut in 1996.

For me this is the crux of this whole discussion on this thread.
Something changed in Lance Armstrong between 1996-1998.
His fans advocate that his brush with death, training,weighing food etc can adequately explain his form since 1998.
I don’t happen to believe this – and statistically, it’s been proven that he’s not
even in the same universe as regards performance comparisons (1992-1996 compared to 1998-to now).
His pedigree (or rather his lack of pedigree) casts this shadow of doubt.
His fans maintain that he was a great talent from day 1.
He may well have been – but statistically, it’s been shown that he never delivered on that talent, from day 1.
His explanations concerning this apparent improvement, simply don’t ring true.
He was a very ambitious professional from day one and he was trying his damndest in those years to try to win (1992 onwards)
(read David Walsh’s book Inside the Tour DeFrance published in 1994)

It’s up to everyone to judge Armstrong’s career on it’s merits

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by limerickman
...(snip) His pedigree (or rather his lack of pedigree) casts this shadow of doubt.
His fans maintain that he was a great talent from day 1.
He may well have been – but statistically, it’s been shown that he never delivered on that talent, from day 1.
His explanations concerning this apparent improvement, simply don’t ring true.
He was a very ambitious professional from day one and he was trying his damndest in those years to try to win (1992 onwards)
(read David Walsh’s book Inside the Tour DeFrance published in 1994)

It’s up to everyone to judge Armstrong’s career on it’s merits

I've known for a long, long time that Lance abandoned 3 of his first four Tours de France. He adamitted after abandoning in 1996 that he wasn't capable of winning the Tour de France but he thought maybe he could win the Olympics. He lost many races to being a brash, young, know-it-all and failing to listen to managers and coaches. It cost him races.

He's has five consecutive Tour de France wins. It doesn't matter greatly to me whether he rides any other race all year long. And I'm all but positive that if I knew him personally, I'd have a marked dislike for him as a person. That doesn't change the way Ullrich can ride away from the most talented racers in cycling today or the fact that Lance can dance away from Ullrich.

"And when he goes, we wonder. Because Lance just opens up a gap and makes Ullrich look like a club-cyclist." - Phil Liggit (2001)

We're all cyclists and we all have our heros and villains. The important part is that we're all cyclists. Keep spinning.

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by Beastt
I've known for a long, long time that Lance abandoned 3 of his first four Tours de France. He adamitted after abandoning in 1996 that he wasn't capable of winning the Tour de France but he thought maybe he could win the Olympics. He lost many races to being a brash, young, know-it-all and failing to listen to managers and coaches. It cost him races.

He's has five consecutive Tour de France wins. It doesn't matter greatly to me whether he rides any other race all year long. And I'm all but positive that if I knew him personally, I'd have a marked dislike for him as a person. That doesn't change the way Ullrich can ride away from the most talented racers in cycling today or the fact that Lance can dance away from Ullrich.

"And when he goes, we wonder. Because Lance just opens up a gap and makes Ullrich look like a club-cyclist." - Phil Liggit (2001)

We're all cyclists and we all have our heros and villains. The important part is that we're all cyclists. Keep spinning.

And if I even had 1% of either Ullrichs or Armstrongs or any of the pros ability, I'd be more than happy !

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by limerickman
And if I even had 1% of either Ullrichs or Armstrongs or any of the pros ability, I'd be more than happy !

I think that's about right. I've probably got about 1% of the ability of any of the pros.

Lance can hold 30mph (48kph) on flat terrain for 2 hours. I can hit 30 on flat terrain, (for a few seconds). That's as close as I get to being able to compare my ability to his.

Why do I get the distinct feeling that I'd be sucking limerickman's slipstream?

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by Beastt
I think that's about right. I've probably got about 1% of the ability of any of the pros.

Lance can hold 30mph (48kph) on flat terrain for 2 hours. I can hit 30 on flat terrain, (for a few seconds). That's as close as I get to being able to compare my ability to his.

Why do I get the distinct feeling that I'd be sucking limerickman's slipstream?

I think I'd have to be driving my car to hold 30mph for more than
30 seconds !!

30mph on the flat for two hours : not that I doubt it but it is
something else what these pros can do - and they do it day after day as well.
It's beyond.

 

[ChrisC]

It makes me happy that there is an athlete like Lance to start a thread like this. So many athletes today are a flash in the pan. That isn't a bad thing! Each one of those flashes raise the bar for everyone else. Sometims not for long, but that is still that particular athlete's moment in the sun. And that is what the apex of being an athlete is - having that moment where no one else in the world is better than you. So many times you hear people say that they are just running their own race or riding within themselves... But they are still beating the other competitors! We will forever compare who is the best and forever debate things like, why Lance is so good or why Brett Favre can throw so many touchdowns or why Schumaker just wins everything... That is great! Was it the team around them or was it the person? You can complie enough numbers and then manipulate those numbers to say whatever you want - ranking all time cyclists in a list if you want. The great thing I get out of Lance performing the way he does is that he drives non-cyclists to turn on the tv or log on to OLN and catch a TDF update. Sure most of these people have no idea what an aero bar is, but they are tuning in and helping the sport. That is good period. Whether you can't stand Lance or whether you worship his career, you can't deny that he has been a HUGE boost to the sport of cycling in America. Yes, I get people asking me if Lance is my idol - no, he is not. I respect him tremendously and sometimes I take a longer way home because I ask myself if Lance would go home. Is it alright to hate him? Sure - you know you are adding to his fire, though... The more you add to his fire, the more he will want to win the TDF - which is where the best cyclists in the world go to race. Please re-read that - the best cyclists in the world. He has beat them all for five straight years. Compare numbers all you want, Lance is in the company of four other humans EVER to see the world as he sees it and only one other to win five times in a row.

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by limerickman
I think I'd have to be driving my car to hold 30mph for more than
30 seconds !!

30mph on the flat for two hours : not that I doubt it but it is
something else what these pros can do - and they do it day after day as well.
It's beyond.

Unfortunately, I double-checked my source after I completed my post and find I must retract that statement. He can hold 32 mph for 1 hour, rather than 30 mph for 2 as I had stated. Sorry, sometimes my memory is the only thing weaker than my legs.

Still, this is an amazing feat! According to the same source the average college male can hold that pace comfortably for about 10 seconds. At 20 seconds "they think they're going to die" and after 40 seconds they throw up.

Apparently, 26 year old (as of Dec, 2002), Dale Purinton of the New York Rangers heard that Lance can hold 2,700 RPM on a Cybex bike for an hour and thought, being a professional athlete himself, that he'd give it a try. "I kept it up for 2 minutes; then I had to quit. I was totally exhausted. My whole body was aching. The man is not human."

Now granted, hockey is very much different from cycling and calls on a somewhat different type of athleticism. Still, it tells you something about the kind of ability Armstrong possesses.

To compare him to other cyclists; does anyone remember the first year Lance rode with Heras and Rubiera on the USPS Tour de France Team? Remember that despite the prior performance of these riders, they seemed less than impressive, starting the race with knees wrapped and the like?

The story behind that, as team manager Johan Bruyneel relates it is that he let his two best climbers train with Lance. By the start of the Tour, they were both tired and worn out. After that, Bruyneel restricted the other riders to only riding with Lance for two out of three training days. The other day Lance is on his own.

In reading an occasional article about Lance, perhaps it is possible to get a peek into who the man is. Arrogant? Perhaps; but how many people make it to the top without a bit of arrogance? Try taking a look into the psyche of top fighter pilots or Grand Prix motorcycle racers. Arrogance gives them an edge, the ability to think of themselves as being able to beat the best in the pack. If you don't believe you're good enough to do that, your chances of doing it diminish.

Lance jumps off a 50-foot cliff over-looking a Lake known as "Dead Man's Hole" for the rush, answers about 300 pieces of mail from cancer patients every week, has a resting heart rate of 32 and weighed 15 pounds less at 31 than he did at 21 while producing 6% more power.

Like him or hate him, the man is interesting. Perhaps that's why those people who list him among their friends include Robin Williams, Bono, Jerry Seinfeld and Tiger Woods.

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by Beastt
Unfortunately, I double-checked my source after I completed my post and find I must retract that statement. He can hold 32 mph for 1 hour, rather than 30 mph for 2 as I had stated. Sorry, sometimes my memory is the only thing weaker than my legs.

Still, this is an amazing feat! According to the same source the average college male can hold that pace comfortably for about 10 seconds. At 20 seconds "they think they're going to die" and after 40 seconds they throw up.

Apparently, 26 year old (as of Dec, 2002), Dale Purinton of the New York Rangers heard that Lance can hold 2,700 RPM on a Cybex bike for an hour and thought, being a professional athlete himself, that he'd give it a try. "I kept it up for 2 minutes; then I had to quit. I was totally exhausted. My whole body was aching. The man is not human."

Now granted, hockey is very much different from cycling and calls on a somewhat different type of athleticism. Still, it tells you something about the kind of ability Armstrong possesses.

To compare him to other cyclists; does anyone remember the first year Lance rode with Heras and Rubiera on the USPS Tour de France Team? Remember that despite the prior performance of these riders, they seemed less than impressive, starting the race with knees wrapped and the like?

The story behind that, as team manager Johan Bruyneel relates it is that he let his two best climbers train with Lance. By the start of the Tour, they were both tired and worn out. After that, Bruyneel restricted the other riders to only riding with Lance for two out of three training days. The other day Lance is on his own.

In reading an occasional article about Lance, perhaps it is possible to get a peek into who the man is. Arrogant? Perhaps; but how many people make it to the top without a bit of arrogance? Try taking a look into the psyche of top fighter pilots or Grand Prix motorcycle racers. Arrogance gives them an edge, the ability to think of themselves as being able to beat the best in the pack. If you don't believe you're good enough to do that, your chances of doing it diminish.

Lance jumps off a 50-foot cliff over-looking a Lake known as "Dead Man's Hole" for the rush, answers about 300 pieces of mail from cancer patients every week, has a resting heart rate of 32 and weighed 15 pounds less at 31 than he did at 21 while producing 6% more power.

Like him or hate him, the man is interesting. Perhaps that's why those people who list him among their friends include Robin Williams, Bono, Jerry Seinfeld and Tiger Woods.

On a personal level I find Jan Ullrich a much more interesting character than Armstrong.
I've read Armstrong's book but I've also been reading Ullrich's history and his upbringing in East Germany.
At this point, I realise that a lot of people have their suspicions about the East German sports systems but let's face they were
as corrupt as the Soviets and the Americans (failed drugs tests
at Los Angeles 1984 and look at how they covered up track and field in the USA too).
Ullrich was an exceptional performer throughout his days as a junior.
(Always a sign of talent - look at the great pros who were world amateur cycling champions : Merckx, Hinault and Ullrich !!).
His gloroius debut as a pro is up there with Merckx and Hinault.
Unfortunately, he has come up against a very driven man in
Armstrong who will do anything to win the most important race in the cycling calendar.
Given that Ullrich is prone to being too human at times, I think that he's a more interesting person.
Armstrong's strength is also his weakness : his obsession with the TDF has cost a price both in terms of splitting our sport and perhaps also in his personal life too.