10 speed Dura Ace is coming

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Doug, Feb 17, 2003.

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  1. Doug

    Doug Guest

    From Lance's site:

    -----
    2/15 ~ HOT! Let the speculation begin! We're finally allowed to let you know the first official word
    from Shimano on their next generation road group.

    Dura Ace®, will be completely renewed. The new 10-speed system has been developed under the concept
    of Speed, Smooth and Strength and this will be reflected in the product with its super-light weight,
    high durability and high efficiency. There will be no need to modify frame dimensions to accommodate
    New Dura Ace®. Interesting stuff that only answers one question, the number of speeds... we'll keep
    you informed as best we can!
    -----

    Anyone have some inside info? Care to speculate on carbon parts, chain width, cog spacing,
    levers, etc?

    Doug
     
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  2. Doug

    Doug Guest

    >From Lance's site:

    Sorry folks. Only after posting did I wonder why day old news like this was not in the group. I
    checked Dejanews only to find there was already a thread about this, started 2/15, but not yet on
    my server.

    Doug
     
  3. doug-<< Anyone have some inside info? Care to speculate on carbon parts, chain width, cog spacing,
    levers, etc?

    No carbon, very similar to when Campagnolo went to 10s three years ago. New shape lever, chain and
    cogset widths are gonna have to be real close to Campagnolo...not a lot of room to play with.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  4. There are some threads in the Forum section in www.bicycling.com Stan "Doug"
    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:a0515vghl95mjefsaer8nrr54pu09[email protected]...
    > From Lance's site:
    >
    > -----
    > 2/15 ~ HOT! Let the speculation begin! We're finally allowed to let you know the first official
    > word from Shimano on their next generation road group.
    >
    > Dura Ace®, will be completely renewed. The new 10-speed system has been developed under the
    > concept of Speed, Smooth and Strength and this will be reflected in the product with its
    > super-light weight, high durability and high efficiency. There will be no need to modify frame
    > dimensions to accommodate New Dura Ace®. Interesting stuff that only answers one question, the
    > number of speeds... we'll keep you informed as best we can!
    > -----
    >
    > Anyone have some inside info? Care to speculate on carbon parts, chain width, cog spacing,
    > levers, etc?
    >
    > Doug
     
  5. Derk Drukker

    Derk Drukker Guest

    Hi Doug!

    On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:56:50 +0100, Doug wrote:

    > Care to speculate on carbon parts, chain width, cog spacing, levers, etc?
    1 thing is sure: most of us don't need it, since chain and cog prices will be far higher and wear
    will be signifcantly faster.(and it's far more sensitive too).

    Derk
     
  6. Allan Leedy

    Allan Leedy Guest

    With Campag. 10-speed, component cost and wear and system sensitivity really are not issues. "Need"
    is another matter entirely.

    "Derk Drukker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > Hi Doug!
    >
    > On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:56:50 +0100, Doug wrote:
    >
    > > Care to speculate on carbon parts, chain width, cog spacing, levers, etc?
    > 1 thing is sure: most of us don't need it, since chain and cog prices will be far higher and wear
    > will be signifcantly faster.(and it's far more sensitive too).
    >
    > Derk
     
  7. It was written:

    >>1 thing is sure: most of us don't need it, since chain and cog prices will be far higher and wear
    >>will be signifcantly faster.(and it's far more sensitive too).

    They said the same thing in the late '50s when 4-speed freewheels were being replaced by 5-speeds
    that needed skinny 3/32" chains.

    See also what Carapace Completed Umber has to say on this subject:

    http://sheldonbrown.com/carapace.html#thin

    Sheldon "Carapace's Good Twin" Brown +------------------------------------------------+
    | Every normal man must be tempted, at times, | to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, | and
    | begin slitting throats. -- H.L. Mencken |
    +------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  8. Derk Drukker

    Derk Drukker Guest

    Hi Sheldon,

    On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 04:07:27 +0100, Sheldon Brown wrote:

    > They said the same thing in the late '50s when 4-speed freewheels were being replaced by 5-speeds
    > that needed skinny 3/32" chains.
    I am not against development and progress and everybody should buy whatever he/she wants to buy, but
    I live e.g. in a flat country and must do my best to find a climb here. I really couldn't care less
    if I have 10 speed or not. Some of my friends of mine who cycle here, who were doing races, and who
    still are very strong cyclists only use 1 or 2 gears. I myself use 4 different ones here. I take my
    bike often to S-W France and though I have both 8 and 9 speed bikes, I take the 8 speed with me (2
    front blades). There I can do with 39/21 on 99% of all climbs. When they are REALLY steep I use
    39/23. Therefore I don't want/need the more expensive 10 speed system.

    Don't you agree costs are far higher for replacing parts?

    Greets, Derk
     
  9. Derk Drukker wrote:

    > I am not against development and progress and everybody should buy whatever he/she wants to buy,
    > but I live e.g. in a flat country and must do my best to find a climb here. I really couldn't care
    > less if I have 10 speed or not. Some of my friends of mine who cycle here, who were doing races,
    > and who still are very strong cyclists only use 1 or 2 gears. I myself use 4 different ones here.
    > I take my bike often to S-W France and though I have both 8 and 9 speed bikes, I take the 8 speed
    > with me (2 front blades). There I can do with 39/21 on 99% of all climbs. When they are REALLY
    > steep I use 39/23. Therefore I don't want/need the more expensive 10 speed system.
    >
    > Don't you agree costs are far higher for replacing parts?

    First, these systems are not made for flatlanders. For you, I would highly recommend looking into a
    fixed-gear, it sounds to me as if you would enjoy it. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed

    As to the expense, a fundamental reality of life in an industrialized wold is that of the economies
    of scale that result from mass production. While, say, a 4-speed system might be more than adequate
    for your needs, many other cyclists find more gears desirable. If a company were to bring back
    4-speed for the small market segment that might want it, the tooling costs would more than wipe out
    any theoretical changes.

    There is no inherent reason why a system with more sprockets should be more expensive. Yes, you
    have a couple of extra sprockets to buy, but that's it. The chain has just as many pieces, the
    derailers don't differ in any qualitative way, and it costs nothing to put another notch or two in
    the shifter detents.

    In fairness, there is the issue of greater precision being required, but this is probably a Good
    Thing in any case.

    You can complain about the proliferation of gears and gadgets as much as you like, but the fact is
    that Shimano has followed a consistent corporate policy over the last quarter century. In that time,
    they have risen from a minor supplier to a position of world dominance. They would be very foolish
    to alter the policy that has worked so well for them in the past.

    They are in the business of selling bicycle parts. If they could't offer something new every so
    often, their potential customers wouldn't have any reason to replace their old stuff, and the
    company would go the way of Benelux, Chater Lea, Cyclo, Huret, Maillard, Simplex, Williams, Zeus...

    Sheldon "Progress" Brown +------------------------------------------------------------+
    | "Shimano's policy was that ten percent of their work | force must be graduate engineers...By the
    | mid-1970's, | Shimano probably had more people working on research and | development than all of
    | their competitors combined... | the (1985) SIS Dura-Ace was the first computer-optimized | rear
    | derailleur...In 1985, Shimano had about 40 percent of the U.S. market...By 1994, Shimano had more
    | than 90 | percent of the U.S. market." | --Frank Berto: "The Dancing Chain" |
    +------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
    Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
    shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  10. Derk Drukker

    Derk Drukker Guest

    Hi Sheldon!

    On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:41:07 +0100, Sheldon Brown wrote:

    > First, these systems are not made for flatlanders. For you, I would highly recommend looking into
    > a fixed-gear, it sounds to me as if you would enjoy it.
    It's not enough for me: though it's mostly flat here, we have VERY strong winds frequently: I use
    39/15,39/16 then. Normally I'm perfectly happy with a 50/19, 50/18, 50/17 gear. Only with strong
    backwind I use 50/13 or 50/14.Mostly I change the 16,17,18 and 19 sprockets of a cassette 4 times
    before I change the other sprockets. The 21 and 23 are only used in S-W France.

    > While, say, a 4-speed system might be more than adequate for your needs, many other cyclists
    > find more gears desirable.
    Yes, if you need them you should buy them, but what I see happening is that people trade in bikes
    that are good enough to win the Tour the France, just because another fashion is being "pushed",
    like carbon inserts, integrated headsets. Things that are no progress IMHO. BTW:I heard the 10 speed
    Campa is more likely to suffer from chainsuck then the 9 speed system. Of course, people are free to
    do so,but there's no end to it if you want to ride what the pro's are riding. I see here that
    serious cyclists often have older bikes and that most flashy bikes are owned by people who don't
    ride often. But you're right: it's their money.

    Another example: We now see all bikes being sold with a 39/53 combination. I see that most riders
    are not strong enough to use a 53, so the chain is always placed on the innermost sprockets, causing
    excessive chain wear. The first thing I did is install a 50 instead of the 53. I know I have less
    available combinations, but the chain is placed in a more ideal postion now.

    > There is no inherent reason why a system with more sprockets should be more expensive.
    But that's my point: they ARE more expensive. At least here they are: a 10 speed chain is twice as
    expensive as a 9 speed chain. A 10 speed cassette costs over 1.5 times more then a 9 speed cassette.
    On top of that: wear is greater too!

    > They would be very foolish to alter the policy that has worked so well for them in the past.
    So we'll see a 50 speed if we'll live long enough :)

    I just meant to say: it's not anything I can ger very excited over. I haven't seen any *real*
    improvement since the introduction of STI/Ergopower shifting and modern click pedals.

    When I go cycling I have just as much fun on my 12 year old steel 8 speed (just did 60 km on it
    today) as on my new 9 speed Titanium bike. I do an average mean speed of about 31.5 km/h on either
    bike. Makes no difference.

    Greetings, Derk
     
  11. Derk Drukker wrote:

    > I just meant to say: it's not anything I can ger very excited over. I haven't seen any *real*
    > improvement since the introduction of STI/Ergopower shifting and modern click pedals.

    To me, the most important improvement in bicycle technology that has occurred in my lifetime is the
    L.E.D. taillight.

    Sheldon "It All Depends On Your Priorities" Brown
    +-------------------------------------------------+
    | What is good for you is what is good for you. | --Peter Chisholm |
    +-------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  12. Derk Drukker

    Derk Drukker Guest

    On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 19:45:22 +0100, Sheldon Brown wrote:

    > To me, the most important improvement in bicycle technology that has occurred in my lifetime is
    > the L.E.D. taillight.
    :))
     
  13. Richard Ney

    Richard Ney Guest

    Sheldon Brown writes:

    >> I just meant to say: it's not anything I can ger very excited over. I haven't seen any *real*
    >> improvement since the introduction of STI/Ergopower shifting and modern click pedals.
    >
    > To me, the most important improvement in bicycle technology that has occurred in my lifetime is
    > the L.E.D. taillight.

    Consider the Light Man strobe then:

    http://www.emprep.com/lightman%20strobe.html
     
  14. I wonder if the spacing will be close enough to Camay to interchange. Would seem that there is not a
    lot of room to have something with much different spacing- as the number of cogs increase the
    differences between the two company's spacing gets smaller, right? Gary Jacobson

    "Derk Drukker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > Hi Doug!
    >
    > On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:56:50 +0100, Doug wrote:
    >
    > > Care to speculate on carbon parts, chain width, cog spacing, levers, etc?
    > 1 thing is sure: most of us don't need it, since chain and cog prices will be far higher and wear
    > will be signifcantly faster.(and it's far more sensitive too).
    >
    > Derk
     
  15. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:41:07 +0100, Sheldon Brown wrote:
    > > First, these systems are not made for flatlanders. For you, I would highly recommend looking
    > > into a fixed-gear, it sounds to me as if you would enjoy it.

    "Derk Drukker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > It's not enough for me: though it's mostly flat here, we have VERY strong winds frequently: I use
    > 39/15,39/16 then. Normally I'm perfectly happy with a 50/19, 50/18, 50/17 gear. Only with strong
    > backwind I use 50/13 or 50/14.Mostly I change the 16,17,18 and 19 sprockets of a cassette 4 times
    > before I change the other sprockets. The 21 and 23 are only used in S-W France.

    "Sheldon"> > While, say, a 4-speed system might be more than adequate for your
    > > needs, many other cyclists find more gears desirable.

    "Derk"> Yes, if you need them you should buy them, but what I see happening is
    > that people trade in bikes that are good enough to win the Tour the France, just because another
    > fashion is being "pushed", like carbon inserts, integrated headsets. Things that are no progress
    > IMHO. BTW:I heard the 10 speed Campa is more likely to suffer from chainsuck then the 9 speed
    > system. Of course, people are free to do so,but there's no end to it if you want to ride what the
    > pro's are riding. I see here that serious cyclists often have older bikes and that most flashy
    > bikes are owned by people who don't ride often. But you're right: it's their money.
    >
    > Another example: We now see all bikes being sold with a 39/53 combination. I see that most riders
    > are not strong enough to use a 53, so the chain is always placed on the innermost sprockets,
    > causing excessive chain wear. The first thing I did is install a 50 instead of the 53. I know I
    > have less available combinations, but the chain is placed in a more ideal postion now.

    "Sheldon"> > There is no inherent reason why a system with more sprockets should be
    > > more expensive.

    "Derk"> But that's my point: they ARE more expensive. At least here they are: a
    > 10 speed chain is twice as expensive as a 9 speed chain. A 10 speed cassette costs over 1.5 times
    > more then a 9 speed cassette. On top of that: wear is greater too!

    "Sheldon"> > They would be very foolish to alter the policy that has worked so well
    > > for them in the past.

    "Derk"> So we'll see a 50 speed if we'll live long enough :)
    >
    > I just meant to say: it's not anything I can ger very excited over. I haven't seen any *real*
    > improvement since the introduction of
    STI/Ergopower
    > shifting and modern click pedals.
    >
    > When I go cycling I have just as much fun on my 12 year old steel 8 speed (just did 60 km on it
    > today) as on my new 9 speed Titanium bike. I do an average mean speed of about 31.5 km/h on either
    > bike. Makes no difference.

    Regarding prices, you may have selected cases where that is true but it isn't always true.

    I pay $2 more for a Wippermann 10 chain than for a Wippermann 9. I pay $0.20 more for a KMC 10 chain
    ( nice chain, BTW) than their equivalent 9 Campagnolo 10 chains are indeed double their 9, but their
    9 is cheaper than many others and their 10 is above average price. They have a wider price
    differential than any other brand. FWIW Campagnolo's older Record-8 chain costs the same as their
    new 10, but with so many vendors of 8speed chain who buys it?

    As the installed base of Ten systems grows, you'll see more vendors and lower prices, I predict.
    Especially if Shimano's new Ten uses compatible chain. Let's face it, if/when Shimano goes to Ten,
    the volume of 10 chain will go up markedly and the price will fall concomitantly

    I'm otherwise sympathetic to your arguments.
    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  16. Doug <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > From Lance's site:
    >
    > -----
    > 2/15 ~ HOT! Let the speculation begin! We're finally allowed to let you know the first official
    > word from Shimano on their next generation road group.
    >
    > Dura Ace®, will be completely renewed. The new 10-speed system has been developed under the
    > concept of Speed, Smooth and Strength and this will be reflected in the product with its
    > super-light weight, high durability and high efficiency. There will be no need to modify frame
    > dimensions to accommodate New Dura Ace®. Interesting stuff that only answers one question, the
    > number of speeds... we'll keep you informed as best we can!
    > -----
    >
    > Anyone have some inside info? Care to speculate on carbon parts, chain width, cog spacing,
    > levers, etc?
    >
    > Doug

    Of the big advantage to us the user, is that 9spd Dura-Ace will be sold off cheaply.

    Here in the UK, when Campag stuff gets upgraded the older stuff does get sold off at a nice
    discount. Shimano hasnt done this as things havent changed much for a few years.

    I for one am looking forward to Dura-Ace 10 spd. I will be able to purchase maybe a couple of
    complete 9spd groups for a nice price. That should keep me going for years.
     
  17. Derk Drukker

    Derk Drukker Guest

    On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:41:42 +0100, Stuart Stebbings wrote:

    > I for one am looking forward to Dura-Ace 10 spd. I will be able to purchase maybe a couple of
    > complete 9spd groups for a nice price. That should keep me going for years.
    Here the 9 speed exists next to the 10 speed Campa, without any discount....

    Greets, Derk
     
  18. [email protected] (Stuart Stebbings) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > >
    > Of the big advantage to us the user, is that 9spd Dura-Ace will be sold off cheaply.
    >
    > Here in the UK, when Campag stuff gets upgraded the older stuff does get sold off at a nice
    > discount. Shimano hasnt done this as things havent changed much for a few years.
    >

    Not always - Parker International still seem to be charging the full whack for their remaining
    stocks of 8sp. Record Ergopower levers and the like.

    David E. Belcher

    Dept. of Chemistry, University of York
     
  19. Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > They are in the business of selling bicycle parts. If they could't offer something new every
    > so often, their potential customers wouldn't have any reason to replace their old stuff, and
    > the company would go the way of Benelux, Chater Lea, Cyclo, Huret, Maillard, Simplex,
    > Williams, Zeus...

    The demise of Huret has rather a lot to do with the people at SRAM, though, who couldn't be bothered
    with road components once they'd got their hands on the MTB side of the Sachs range. They seem to
    have back-tracked a tiny bit and introduced a couple of Shimano-compatible 9sp. road cassettes, and
    still (inevitably) do suitable chains, but that's about it.

    David E. Belcher

    Dept. of Chemistry, University of York
     
  20. Derk Drukker <[email protected]movethis.planet.nl> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > Another example: We now see all bikes being sold with a 39/53 combination. I see that most riders
    > are not strong enough to use a 53, so the chain is always placed on the innermost sprockets,
    > causing excessive chain wear. The first thing I did is install a 50 instead of the 53. I know I
    > have less available combinations, but the chain is placed in a more ideal postion now.

    I don't see the problem being that road bikes come with 53 tooth large chain rings, I see it as we
    can no longer start clusters with cogs larger than 12 or 13. I remember being able to start clusters
    with a 15 or even 16 tooth gear. A 53-14 is a slightly lower gear than a 50-13. A 14 tooth cog will
    last longer than a 13 because the load is spread among more teeth and a 14 tooth cog has slightly
    better drivetrain efficiency than a 13. We don't need fewer teeth in front, we need more teeth in
    the rear. If you could start your cluster with a sane 14 tooth cog your 53 would be just fine.

    > I just meant to say: it's not anything I can ger very excited over. I haven't seen any *real*
    > improvement since the introduction of STI/Ergopower shifting and modern click pedals.

    There is the law of diminishing returns. I started riding seriously when bikes had 5 cog freewheels.
    The 6th cog was a nice addition, we were able to narrow the gaps between the gears noticibly. 7
    speed made even smaller jumps, often 1 tooth in the high end of the cluster. I was already thinking
    that 8 speeds were not that big a deal when they came out; I really never found myself saying that I
    wish I could fit just one more cog when I had 7. When things went to 9 cogs I remember thinking it
    was sorta' nice that I could run just one cluster for both flat and hilly courses, I no longer had
    to have multiple clusters because I could afford to carry cogs I didn't need. Then again, changing
    clusters isn't that hard so what's the big deal? 10 speeds seems like serious overkill; especially
    since I've read that 10 speed drivetrains have poor durability. Spacing rear wheels for all these
    cogs creates so much disk that it makes it much harder to build durabile rear wheels.

    stop the madness! Bruce
    --
    Bruce Jackson - Sr. Systems Programmer - DMSP, A M/A/R/C Group company
     
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