10 speed in a 126mm rear spaced frame?

[[email protected]]

Hello

searched through the old threads and the wonderful website of Mr.
Sheldon Brown about frame cold setting, from 126mm to 130mm. Most
people say its not a problem to fit a 8/9 speed wheel in the 126mm rear
space(even Mr Brown personally replied back to my email to him, saying
the 2mm difference on either side is very trivial and not of concern)
but I havent seen anyone trying to fit a10 speed wheel in a 126mm rear
space...is the 10 more or less regulated to 130mm or there are just no
problems to report on doing this, hence no posts on this topic? I don't
want to mess around with cold setting a frame or driving 200 miles
somewhere to my nearest framebuilder to do this.
Thanks.

-Mike

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

[email protected] wrote:
> Hello
>
> searched through the old threads and the wonderful website of Mr.
> Sheldon Brown about frame cold setting, from 126mm to 130mm. Most
> people say its not a problem to fit a 8/9 speed wheel in the 126mm rear
> space(even Mr Brown personally replied back to my email to him, saying
> the 2mm difference on either side is very trivial and not of concern)
> but I havent seen anyone trying to fit a10 speed wheel in a 126mm rear
> space...is the 10 more or less regulated to 130mm


Yes, 10SP is the same spacing as 8/9SP. The trick lies in thinner cogs
and thinner spacers.


> or there are just no
> problems to report on doing this, hence no posts on this topic? I don't
> want to mess around with cold setting a frame or driving 200 miles
> somewhere to my nearest framebuilder to do this.
> Thanks.
>
> -Mike

 

[A Muzi]

[email protected] wrote:
> searched through the old threads and the wonderful website of Mr.
> Sheldon Brown about frame cold setting, from 126mm to 130mm. Most
> people say its not a problem to fit a 8/9 speed wheel in the 126mm rear
> space(even Mr Brown personally replied back to my email to him, saying
> the 2mm difference on either side is very trivial and not of concern)
> but I havent seen anyone trying to fit a10 speed wheel in a 126mm rear
> space...is the 10 more or less regulated to 130mm or there are just no
> problems to report on doing this, hence no posts on this topic? I don't
> want to mess around with cold setting a frame or driving 200 miles
> somewhere to my nearest framebuilder to do this.

This is not serious or complex. Take a look at a spoke,
That's about the distance involved (130 - 126 / 2).
Measure the frame width. Grab both ends in your hands. Pull
them apart and measure again. Stop when you get to 130mm.
With only 2mm of movement you won't upset the centering of
the frame.

I had the opposite conversation with a customer over the
telephone a few days ago as he moved his frame from 126 to
120 for a fixed wheel. Fear not. Bending steel frames to the
extent needed here is almost trivial. "Cold setting" makes
it sound like black magic.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Nate Knutson]

[email protected] wrote:
> Hello
>
> searched through the old threads and the wonderful website of Mr.
> Sheldon Brown about frame cold setting, from 126mm to 130mm. Most
> people say its not a problem to fit a 8/9 speed wheel in the 126mm rear
> space(even Mr Brown personally replied back to my email to him, saying
> the 2mm difference on either side is very trivial and not of concern)
> but I havent seen anyone trying to fit a10 speed wheel in a 126mm rear
> space...is the 10 more or less regulated to 130mm or there are just no
> problems to report on doing this, hence no posts on this topic? I don't
> want to mess around with cold setting a frame or driving 200 miles
> somewhere to my nearest framebuilder to do this.
> Thanks.
>
> -Mike

It's far from something that only a framebuilder can do. Any good shop
can do this, although many would make you sign something that releases
them from liability, even if they didn't normally have such a policy.
The only bike-specific tools that are needed to do this perfectly are
dropout alignment tools and a derailer hanger alignment gauge, both of
which all shops have.

Also, although it's mostly correct that forcing the larger hub in there
is fine, it can be a bit more complicated than that. I don't really
know the math of how much change in dropout and derailer hanger
alignment will result from this, but I think that it could be enough to
cause problems under the right circumstances, like if the frame already
had a certain amount of dropout/hanger misalignment, as many do. I'm
guessing that because I know it's enough misalignment to see when I've
aligned dropouts and hangers after spreading a frame.

Also, 10 speed is naturally more sensitive to hanger alignment than 9
speed (and 9 is more sensitive than 8), so it is a little bit of a
different question in that regard.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

[email protected] wrote:
> Hello
>
> searched through the old threads and the wonderful website of Mr.
> Sheldon Brown about frame cold setting, from 126mm to 130mm. Most
> people say its not a problem to fit a 8/9 speed wheel in the 126mm rear
> space(even Mr Brown personally replied back to my email to him, saying
> the 2mm difference on either side is very trivial and not of concern)
> but I havent seen anyone trying to fit a10 speed wheel in a 126mm rear
> space...is the 10 more or less regulated to 130mm or there are just no
> problems to report on doing this, hence no posts on this topic? I don't
> want to mess around with cold setting a frame or driving 200 miles
> somewhere to my nearest framebuilder to do this.
> Thanks.
>
> -Mike

8s=9s=10s in spacing-all are 130mm.

 

[Donald Gillies]

A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:

>I had the opposite conversation with a customer over the
>telephone a few days ago as he moved his frame from 126 to
>120 for a fixed wheel. Fear not. Bending steel frames to the
>extent needed here is almost trivial. "Cold setting" makes
>it sound like black magic.

I agree with Andrew on this subject, however, I would not cold-set or
bend a steel frameset more than twice. I think that the bent area
becomes somewhat weaker every time its bent, and will be much more
likely to bend spontaneously or experience failure after several
bending cycles.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

Donald Gillies wrote:
> A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> I had the opposite conversation with a customer over the
>> telephone a few days ago as he moved his frame from 126 to
>> 120 for a fixed wheel. Fear not. Bending steel frames to the
>> extent needed here is almost trivial. "Cold setting" makes
>> it sound like black magic.
>
> I agree with Andrew on this subject, however, I would not cold-set or
> bend a steel frameset more than twice. I think that the bent area
> becomes somewhat weaker every time its bent, and will be much more
> likely to bend spontaneously or experience failure after several
> bending cycles.

Numbers? Proof? Any reports of actual failures? I would love to hear more
about failure due specifically to cold-setting a metal frame.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On 14 Feb 2006 11:44:53 -0800, [email protected] (Donald Gillies)
wrote:

>bend spontaneously

What is that?

JT


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[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Donald Gillies wrote:
> A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >I had the opposite conversation with a customer over the
> >telephone a few days ago as he moved his frame from 126 to
> >120 for a fixed wheel. Fear not. Bending steel frames to the
> >extent needed here is almost trivial. "Cold setting" makes
> >it sound like black magic.
>
> I agree with Andrew on this subject, however, I would not cold-set or
> bend a steel frameset more than twice. I think that the bent area
> becomes somewhat weaker every time its bent, and will be much more
> likely to bend spontaneously or experience failure after several
> bending cycles.

The steel alloys used for bicycle frames would generally exhibit work
hardening, so the frame would be LESS likely to bend after being cold
set. However, repeated plastic strain will lead to fracture in only a
few cycles (assuming no heat treatment such as annealing or
normalizing).

--
Tom Sherman

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Hello
> >
> > searched through the old threads and the wonderful website of Mr.
> > Sheldon Brown about frame cold setting, from 126mm to 130mm. Most
> > people say its not a problem to fit a 8/9 speed wheel in the 126mm rear
> > space(even Mr Brown personally replied back to my email to him, saying
> > the 2mm difference on either side is very trivial and not of concern)
> > but I havent seen anyone trying to fit a10 speed wheel in a 126mm rear
> > space...is the 10 more or less regulated to 130mm or there are just no
> > problems to report on doing this, hence no posts on this topic? I don't
> > want to mess around with cold setting a frame or driving 200 miles
> > somewhere to my nearest framebuilder to do this.
> > Thanks.
> >
> > -Mike
>
> 8s=9s=10s in spacing-all are 130mm.

For single-bike "road" hubs.

--
Tom Sherman

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > Hello
> > >
> > > searched through the old threads and the wonderful website of Mr.
> > > Sheldon Brown about frame cold setting, from 126mm to 130mm. Most
> > > people say its not a problem to fit a 8/9 speed wheel in the 126mm rear
> > > space(even Mr Brown personally replied back to my email to him, saying
> > > the 2mm difference on either side is very trivial and not of concern)
> > > but I havent seen anyone trying to fit a10 speed wheel in a 126mm rear
> > > space...is the 10 more or less regulated to 130mm or there are just no
> > > problems to report on doing this, hence no posts on this topic? I don't
> > > want to mess around with cold setting a frame or driving 200 miles
> > > somewhere to my nearest framebuilder to do this.
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > -Mike
> >
> > 8s=9s=10s in spacing-all are 130mm.
>
> For single-bike "road" hubs.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman

Yes, I omitted 'half bike' and mountain bike hubs Tom. I omitted
'bents' as well, since I don't really know what these 'things' use.
Could be anything, depending on each teeny-tiny maker of these things.

But let's assume the OP was talking about a half bike, not a tandem.

 

[Hank Wirtz]

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 14 Feb 2006 11:44:53 -0800, [email protected] (Donald Gillies)
> wrote:
>
>>bend spontaneously
>
> What is that?
>

....a "JRA" problem...

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> > Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > >...
> > > 8s=9s=10s in spacing-all are 130mm.
> >
> > For single-bike "road" hubs.
>
> Yes, I omitted 'half bike' and mountain bike hubs Tom.

What is the typical spacing for unicycle hubs?

> I omitted
> 'bents' as well, since I don't really know what these 'things' use....

Most newer recumbent bicycles use 135-mm rear dropout spacing.

--
Tom Sherman

 

[A Muzi]

>>>A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:
>>>I had the opposite conversation with a customer over the
>>>telephone a few days ago as he moved his frame from 126 to
>>>120 for a fixed wheel. Fear not. Bending steel frames to the
>>>extent needed here is almost trivial. "Cold setting" makes
>>>it sound like black magic.

> Donald Gillies wrote:
>>I agree with Andrew on this subject, however, I would not cold-set or
>>bend a steel frameset more than twice. I think that the bent area
>>becomes somewhat weaker every time its bent, and will be much more
>>likely to bend spontaneously or experience failure after several
>>bending cycles.

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
> Numbers? Proof? Any reports of actual failures? I would love to hear more
> about failure due specifically to cold-setting a metal frame.

You would be surprised at the reslience of steel in some
situations.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/brnn.html

Those photos are over a year old. The bike is ridden hard
daily and I see this bike regularly - no further
difficulties from that wreck/alignment.

I can't recall a case of frame failure from repeated
bending. I believe it is possible, just not usually on 2 or
3 iterations.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

A Muzi wrote:
>>>> A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:
>>>> I had the opposite conversation with a customer over the
>>>> telephone a few days ago as he moved his frame from 126 to
>>>> 120 for a fixed wheel. Fear not. Bending steel frames to the
>>>> extent needed here is almost trivial. "Cold setting" makes
>>>> it sound like black magic.
>
>> Donald Gillies wrote:
>>> I agree with Andrew on this subject, however, I would not cold-set
>>> or bend a steel frameset more than twice. I think that the bent
>>> area becomes somewhat weaker every time its bent, and will be much
>>> more likely to bend spontaneously or experience failure after
>>> several bending cycles.
>
> Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
>> Numbers? Proof? Any reports of actual failures? I would love to
>> hear more about failure due specifically to cold-setting a metal
>> frame.
>
> You would be surprised at the reslience of steel in some
> situations.
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/brnn.html
>
> Those photos are over a year old. The bike is ridden hard
> daily and I see this bike regularly - no further
> difficulties from that wreck/alignment.
>
> I can't recall a case of frame failure from repeated
> bending. I believe it is possible, just not usually on 2 or
> 3 iterations.

Exactly; we're on the same page. I guess my sarcasm in my previous post
wasn't obvious enough.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Bob]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 21:32:07 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
wrote:

>http://www.yellowjersey.org/brnn.html
>
>Those photos are over a year old. The bike is ridden hard
>daily and I see this bike regularly - no further
>difficulties from that wreck/alignment.
>
>I can't recall a case of frame failure from repeated
>bending. I believe it is possible, just not usually on 2 or
>3 iterations.

I managed to create a problem... Older 531x3 frame. I pulled the left
stay by hand just a couple mm in the 70's to fit a ultra-6 (needed
some axle washer space.) A couple years ago I pulled it a little more
to get to 126 to fit a seven speed. I rode it for a while but I didn't
like the way it was aligned after a cluster change so last year I
pulled the right stay a couple mm and then pushed the left stay in.
Unfortunately it went too far in. WHen I pulled it back out, I got a
weak spot(s) below the left side of the brake bridge and on the left
behind/at whatever they call that piece that bridges the lower stays
behind the BB. The lower stay has a depression that you can see easily
as a weak spot. When I studied it, I could also see that the upper
left bend had occurred just below the brake bridge (only). While I
thought I was getting a smooth bend in the steel on each leg each
time, I was actually getting a bend only at those two concentrated
points.

MHE,
Bob

 

[[email protected]]

Andrew Muzi writes:

>>>> I had the opposite conversation with a customer over the
>>>> telephone a few days ago as he moved his frame from 126 to 120
>>>> for a fixed wheel. Fear not. Bending steel frames to the extent
>>>> needed here is almost trivial. "Cold setting" makes it sound
>>>> like black magic.


>>> I agree with Andrew on this subject, however, I would not cold-set
>>> or bend a steel frameset more than twice. I think that the bent
>>> area becomes somewhat weaker every time its bent, and will be much
>>> more likely to bend spontaneously or experience failure after
>>> several bending cycles.

>> Numbers? Proof? Any reports of actual failures? I would love to
>> hear more about failure due specifically to cold-setting a metal
>> frame.

> You would be surprised at the resilience of steel in some situations.

> http://www.yellowjersey.org/brnn.html

> Those photos are over a year old. The bike is ridden hard daily and
> I see this bike regularly - no further difficulties from that
> wreck/alignment.

> I can't recall a case of frame failure from repeated bending. I
> believe it is possible, just not usually on 2 or 3 iterations. --

You didn't say what caused the deformation but it looks like a classic
torque induced bend from a hub brake... or a stick in the wheel. How
did the rear wheel look and how did you straighten the frame? Does
this rider use a back-pedal coaster brake?

Jobst Brandt

 

[A Muzi]

([email protected])
>>You would be surprised at the resilience of steel in some situations.
>>http://www.yellowjersey.org/brnn.html

[email protected] wrote:
>>Those photos are over a year old. The bike is ridden hard daily and
>>I see this bike regularly - no further difficulties from that
>>wreck/alignment.

(am)
>>I can't recall a case of frame failure from repeated bending. I
>>believe it is possible, just not usually on 2 or 3 iterations. --

(jb)
> You didn't say what caused the deformation but it looks like a classic
> torque induced bend from a hub brake... or a stick in the wheel. How
> did the rear wheel look and how did you straighten the frame? Does
> this rider use a back-pedal coaster brake?

Fixed gear bike. I agree a foreign object in the wheel
caused it. As noted on that page, the rider has no memory
of the crash, just awoke next to his bent bike.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971