12-25 and 12-27 9spd.

[Saltytri]

I'm a skinny guy (140 lbs) with chicken legs and no great spinner, but I can fairly easily generate
200 to 250 watts (measured) when going downhill at 35 mph on a 50t front and 13t rear. Don't need to
go much faster, thanks.

Get a 110 BCD crank with a 50/34, and you can get all the gears that most recreational riders might
need without going to a triple. I have both Ultegra and DA triples and find them to be clunky
compared with doubles, although this is admittedly a very subjective judgment. With a little
mix-and-match (buy the needed parts from branfordbike.com or Sheldon), you can build up cassettes
ranging from 13/21 to 13/30. I've found that a DA rear der will work with a 30t, though some report
that their setups max out at 28t. Even the 27t that Shimano recommends as the max gets you a pretty
low gear with a 34t front. Might not be low enough for the loaded touring set and might not have
close enough ratios for the crit kids but for me, this is an excellent solution. Especially if your
ego can't cope with the pie-plate rear cogs that you can put on if you go to a MTB rear der

 

[John Dacey]

"Et tu, Brute? " - C. Iulius Caesar

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 05:53:41 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

>How about a 12-29 for the new 10-speed DuraAce coming out? With no 10-speed triple option, I think
>there's going to be quite a market for something that will push the limits of the new system. And
>while I'm at it, let me personally rant about how silly it is that Shimano doesn't extend the range
>for the 10-speed! As if everyone's asking for closer cog spacing... I just want a bit wider range
>for these legs.
>
>Shimano, in my opinion, really could have made a killing with an extended range 10-speed system.
>There are a lot of people who really don't want a triple (some of whom really ought to have them,
>but just can't bring themselves to admitting it), and a couple more teeth on the back would give
>them a couple more years with that double they treasure so highly.

The heritage of the Dura-Ace series has been as an ensemble for elite racing applications. History
suggests that the extra (10th) sprocket, together with derailleurs that will wrap more chain than
the 7800 model, will subsequently be offered in other Shimano groups at lower price points. It's
misplaced to criticize Shimano for failing to comromise their premier racing components just so
some geezers and wheezers who need lower gearing than what is normally required for road racing
will have it.

-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida http://www.businesscycles.com Now in our twenty-first
year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------

 

[Pete Biggs]

Suzy Jackson wrote:

>> Good idea. I also wish Campagnolo made 13-24 and 13-27 with 21, 24, 27 at the end. I have to make
>> my own!
>
> How ever do you do that?

[9-speed] By using a Veloce 9sp 13-26 with the two largest sprockets swapped for Marchisio ones (as
described in another reply to this thread: please see that for possible disadvantages*). And see
http://anysystem.de - Is that a handy system or what! Saves a few grams as well (when using
Avioteks). The grey 2.9mm spacer (and grey anti-flex spacers) happen to be just right for placing
between Marchisio and Campag 9sp cogs. A 0.5mm spacer is required behind cassette because sprockets
are so thin.

A custom job like this should also be possible with 10sp although there may be complications with
the funny spacers in 10sp cassettes (? I dunno: I don't use them). A whole Marchisio cassette could
be used but they do work out very expensive and shifting may not be as good as Campag (some users
say it's good, some not: I've not tried a whole Marchisio cassette myself).

I'm also using a 9-speed 14-30 cassette on my tourer's Campag 8-speed hub!! That involved a heavy
session with a drill with stone grinding bit (to modify 9sp sprockets) plus a Marchisio 30T cog.

> I just ordered a 13-26 and 13-28 Campy loose cog 9 speed cassette, with the hope of putting the
> 28 on the last position of the 13-26, so I have a cassette that goes 13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-28,
> for an upcoming 150km ride I'm doing that features a 2.6km 10% climb after about 70km.
>
> But I worry that I'll be able to do it, as I'm using a short cage rear derailleur. The only reason
> I'm even going to try is that I use a 49 tooth big chainring on the front, limiting the total
> difference in chain wrap.

Might work ok if lucky. Perhaps even a certain amount of jockey wheel rubbing might be acceptable
when you're desparate for the bottom gear.

> So a 21-23-27 on the end would be truly wonderful (or perhaps even a 21-24-28), but where do you
> get the 24 and 27 tooth cogs?

Direct from http://anysystem.de - although there may be complications with payment....

...Or www.parker-international.co.uk/components.htm or www.sdeals.com or www.oldhamcyclecentre.co.uk

Not very expensive for just a couple of cogs so I'm sure it'll be worth getting them shipped to Oz.
Could always sell or pass them on if they didn't work for you.

* The back-pedalling derailing (on to smaller sprocket) problems were happening on a bike with short
chainstays and a triple chainset. It was definitely nothing to do with the mech as I could clearly
watch the chain derail at the TOP of the sprocket. Cures include using an _extra_ spacer behind
cassette, offsetting inner ring inwards, filing the teeth! Note. I do not have this problem at all
on the tourer - probably because of the improved chainline due to longer chain stays, and I've
never heard of anyone else having this trouble with them either. In any case, it's only usually a
real problem in practice when come to a stop and wind the crank back a bit; and simply changing up
a gear then sorts the chain out.

~PB

 

[Pete Biggs]

> [9-speed] By using a Veloce 9sp 13-26 with the two largest sprockets swapped for Marchisio ones
> (as described in another reply to this thread: please see that for possible disadvantages*). And
> see http://anysystem.de - Is that a handy system or what! Saves a few grams as well (when using
> Avioteks). The grey 2.9mm spacer (and grey anti-flex spacers) happen to be just right for placing
> between Marchisio and Campag 9sp cogs. A .5mm spacer is required behind cassette because sprockets
> are so thin.

Note. Each sprocket requires an adaptor, not one adaptor per hub. (Websites don't make this clear).

~PB

 

[Onefred]

> It's misplaced to criticize Shimano for failing to comromise their premier racing components just
> so some geezers and wheezers who need lower gearing than what is normally required for road racing
> will have it.

But John, haven't Shimano already done this with their Dura-Ace Triple?

Dave

 

[Matt O'Toole]

"onefred" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> > It's misplaced to criticize Shimano for failing to comromise their premier racing components
> > just so some geezers and wheezers who need lower gearing than what is normally required for road
> > racing will have it.
>
> But John, haven't Shimano already done this with their Dura-Ace Triple?

I don't see how such a system is "compromised" by extra gearing options -- except in an
image-consciousness, "brand management," etc. They probably think it takes away from Dura-Ace's
racer image. But technically/engineering-wise, no way. It's all just a bunch of marketing BS.

Matt O.

 

[John Dacey]

"Non omnes possumus omnia". - Vergil

When I wrote:

>> > It's misplaced to criticize Shimano for failing to comromise their premier racing components
>> > just so some geezers and wheezers who need lower gearing than what is normally required for
>> > road racing will have it.

"onefred" <[email protected]> replied:

>> But John, haven't Shimano already done this with their Dura-Ace Triple?

Arguably yes, and to what end? The nine-speed Dura-Ace triple has certainly not been regarded as an
unalloyed success. I'd like to think that Shimano can learn from past and keep their ten-speed
Dura-Ace group focused on its core purpose and not dilute its performance by trying to be all things
to all people. It takes no clairvoyance to predict that there will subsequently come Ultegra, then
105 and perhaps even other ten-speed options which will offer a broader scope of gearing options
than required for Dura-Ace.

And then "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I don't see how such a system is "compromised" by extra gearing options -- except in an
>image-consciousness, "brand management," etc. They probably think it takes away from Dura-Ace's
>racer image. But technically/engineering-wise, no way. It's all just a bunch of marketing BS.

I don't share your readiness to floccinaucinihilipilify the technical complexities of wide range
gearing, particularly if it includes fitting triples to modern road racing frames with short,
oversize chainstays. If it could all be dismissed as "marketing BS", there wouldn't be need in the
world for rear derailleur cages of different lengths and front changers with cage plates of various
lengths and contours. Also, it's entirely possible that Shimano simply decided that there wouldn't
be enough people willing to pay the premium price for Dura-Ace grade ten-speed cassettes that went
to 29 (or more, what is "enough"?) teeth to justify making them. With up to four ti sprockets, the
7800 clusters aren't cheap.
-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida Now in our twenty-first year. Our catalog of track
equipment: eighth year online. http://www.businesscycles.com

 

[Onefred]

> I don't see how such a system is "compromised" by extra gearing options -- except in an
> image-consciousness, "brand management," etc. They probably think it takes away from Dura-Ace's
> racer image.

Nothing proves your manliness more than a climb to Kaiser Pass using 53/39 and 12-21 gearing.

I just hope that they keep their nine speed triple chainring DA group for a while because it will
mean more parts availability. But I'm not unrealistic. I know that we probably will see ten speed
triple chainring DA in the next six months.

Bye-bye nine speed, it's been nice knowing ya. :-(

Dave

 

[Onefred]

> It takes no clairvoyance to predict that there will subsequently come Ultegra, then 105 and
> perhaps even other ten-speed options which will offer a broader scope of gearing options than
> required for Dura-Ace.

Well, when the 105 ten speed triple is available, expect Shimano to just put a nice polish on the
crank and label it Dura-Ace. This will calm the weekend riders.

Dave

 

[Tim McTeague]

> Well, when the 105 ten speed triple is available, expect Shimano to just put a nice polish on the
> crank and label it Dura-Ace. This will calm the weekend riders.
>
> Dave

When has Dura-Ace EVER been the same as one of the lower level groups safe finish?

Tim McTeague

 

[Tim McTeague]

Doh, make that SAVE finish.

Tim

>
> When has Dura-Ace EVER been the same as one of the lower level groups safe finish?
>
> Tim McTeague

 

[Onefred]

Tim, that misspelling dis throw me but, due to their proximity, common sense told me that you had
accidentally hit the 'f' instead of the 'v'. Please don't think I was being pedantic for not
responding to your previous post. )

> Doh, make that SAVE finish.
>
> Tim
>
> >
> > When has Dura-Ace EVER been the same as one of the lower level groups safe finish?

Well..., never. I made that comment because I think it's cheezy of Shimano to have a triple
chainring Dura-Ace group. Really, Ultegra is just as good, but I know the baby-boomers that are
fueling development of products like these want the best so they have something to talk about with
their golfing buddies.

Dura-Ace - JUST LIKE LANCE!

Dave

 

[Mike Jacoubowsk]

> The heritage of the Dura-Ace series has been as an ensemble for elite racing applications. History
> suggests that the extra (10th) sprocket, together with derailleurs that will wrap more chain than
> the 7800 model, will subsequently be offered in other Shimano groups at lower price points. It's
> misplaced to criticize Shimano for failing to comromise their premier racing components just so
> some geezers and wheezers who need lower gearing than what is normally required for road racing
> will have it. John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida http://www.businesscycles.com

OK, I can accept (but generally find distasteful) that you refer to me as "some geezer and wheezer"
but you'd also have to put Roberto Heras in that camp... he used a 30 front/25 rear *triple* on the
Angrilu stage of the Veulta last year. Oh yeah, he also won it going away.

Campy has also seen the wisdom of offering lower gearing on their "ensemble for elite racing
applications" with a 29 tooth rear cassette.

I would also suggest that it's the "geezer and wheezer" crowd that subsidizes the racers, by buying
in much larger quantities than the racers
do. Oh yeah, and they also pay retail for it.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[Tim McTeague]

Me, well I'm waiting for someone to make an affordable 50/34 crank. I understand FSA is going to
make an aluminum version of their carbon crank in the near future. The idea of $300+ cranks kind of
puts me off as the weight savings is not really that important. I don't understand why Shimano will
not produce this sort of thing. Hmm, I guess they want to sell another set of brifters and
derailleurs with the triple ringer. For my hilly, but not too steep terrain, a 50/34 and 12-25 combo
seems like a good match.

Tim McTeague

>
> Well..., never. I made that comment because I think it's cheezy of Shimano to have a triple
> chainring Dura-Ace group. Really, Ultegra is just as good, but I know the baby-boomers that are
> fueling development of products like these want the best so they have something to talk about with
> their golfing buddies.
>
> Dura-Ace - JUST LIKE LANCE!
>
> Dave

 

[Andrew Webster]

"Tim McTeague" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Me, well I'm waiting for someone to make an affordable 50/34 crank.

They do, and have for a long time.

The Stronglight Escapade (and other models) allows this. All chainrings have the same BCD so you can
mix and match.

I have a 52/28 setup on my Brompton folder - very affordable by buying a triple with some double
bolts and "losing" the middle ring.

Not sure this crankset is "high end" enough to appeal to all contributors to this thread though!

Andrew Webster

 

[Jeff Starr]

"onefred" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

>want the best so they have something to talk about with their golfing
buddies.<

Hi, first of all, I don't golf, but more to the point, I have been reading and posting on this forum
for appr four months now. What I don't understand is why a number of the regular posters, so resent
people wanting the best available. Compared to many other interests, hobbies, and pursuits,
bicycling is relatively inexpensive. Good equipment can be had for under a $1000 and great equipment
for less than $5000. The difference in cost of a Dura-Ace crank, compared to an Ultegra, is what
maybe $100. Pursue an interest in high end audio or car restoration, and $100, buys very little. So
for me, my love of music and interest in quality audio equipment, has been a financial challenge.
When I started having problems with my 27 year old French road bike and wanted a new bike, the best
I could afford, was a closeout 2002 LeMond Tourmalet. I love the bike and choose it over others,
same price, better groups, but lesser frames, because I knew the LeMond steel frame was of high
quality. When I can afford it, I want to upgrade the components. I want to replace the Tiagra
crankset, and brifters, with Dura-Ace, components. Not so I can brag to anyone, nobody I know cares.
No I want the best available. The crankset and yes I want a triple, is 30-39-53, all other Shimano
triples come stock with 30-42-52. So not only do I get the best quality, but I get chainrings,
sized, better for my terrain and abilities. I'll go with a 13-23 cassette [Ultegra], which will
replace the 14-25 that I am using now. I seldom used the 13, didn't use the 12, so I replaced the
original 12-25 cassette, with the 14-25, so that I got a 16 and 18, which I use every ride. I gave
it some thought and in a 9spd cassette, I would really like 13,14,15,16,17,18,19,21,24. To me that
would be ideal, when I go to the 30-39-53. But, seeing as I'm not aware of a Shimano 24 tooth
sprocket, the 13-23 will do. Back to my original point, what is wrong with wanting the best that one
can afford? Why the resentment and assumption that it is a yuppie pursuit. I'm no yuppie, just a guy
who appreciates quality. It seems as though, some believe that, if you are not a great rider, you
don't deserve the best. And your motives for wanting the best, are somehow suspect. One benefit of a
good bike, is that you want to ride it. When I look at my old bike, it says "ride me" and I think
yes I'd like to. When I look at my Tourmalet, it screams "RIDE ME!" and I think let me get my gear
on. The point is, as much as I like to ride, I ride even more and further, with the LeMond. I look
forward to the precision of the Dur-Ace shifters, my Tiagras are ok, but they do lack the level of
quality that is Dura-Ace.
>Dura-Ace - JUST LIKE LANCE! > Lance who? That may be someones
reason, but it's not mine. I do appreciate Lance's input on the SPD-SL pedal, though I went with the
Ultegra version. Jeff

>
> Well..., never. I made that comment because I think it's cheezy of Shimano to have a triple
> chainring Dura-Ace group. Really, Ultegra is just as good, but I know the baby-boomers that are
> fueling development of products like these want the best so they have something to talk about with
> their golfing buddies.
>
> Dura-Ace - JUST LIKE LANCE!
>
> Dave

 

[Onefred]

> ideal, when I go to the 30-39-53. But, seeing as I'm not aware of a Shimano 24 tooth sprocket, the
> 13-23 will do.

Hey, I ride a 13-23! I think it's the only component on my bike that is NOT Dura-Ace! So there.
Sometimes a 12t is nice, though.

About that 24t, I think that you mint be able to find one in a Deore LX cassette. I'd be
surprised if you couldn't. I know it was available in the 8s era. But isn't there a 24t in the
12-27 105 (HG-70) 9s cassette, Jeff? I tell ya, a 13-27 is a nice combo, too, and a 12-27 10s
would be even better.

Dave

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Jeff Starr wrote:

> Hi, first of all, I don't golf,

Too bad, see: http://golf.shimano.co.jp/index/

>>baby-boomers that are fueling development of products like these want the best so they have
>>something to talk about with their golfing buddies.
>>
>>Dura-Ace - JUST LIKE LANCE!

No Dura-Ace golf clubs...yet! Maybe they're waiting to see if they can sign up Tiger Woods...

Sheldon "A Good Walk Spoilt" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| How harmful overspecialization is. | It cuts knowledge at a million points and leaves it
| bleeding. | --Isaac Asimov |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Tim McTeague wrote:

> Me, well I'm waiting for someone to make an affordable 50/34 crank.

See:

http://harriscyclery.net/site/page.cfm?PageID=49&SKU=CR2390

Sheldon "One-Ten" Brown +-------------------------------------+
| One can never know what is enough | until one knows what is too much. | --William Blake |
+-------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Matt O'Toole]

"Tim McTeague" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> Me, well I'm waiting for someone to make an affordable 50/34 crank. I understand FSA is going to
> make an aluminum version of their carbon crank in the near future. The idea of $300+ cranks kind
> of puts me off as the weight savings is not really that important. I don't understand why Shimano
> will not produce this sort of thing. Hmm, I guess they want to sell another set of brifters and
> derailleurs with the triple ringer. For my hilly, but not too steep terrain, a 50/34 and 12-25
> combo seems like a good match.

I've seen a bunch of Ritchey and other (Truvativ ?) 34-48 on Ebay for under $100. For me, one of
these plus a 12-32 or 12-34 would be a good way to get the same gearing as a triple, for a lot less
money than the full swap.

Matt O.