12-25 and 12-27 9spd.

[John Dacey]

"Non qui parum habet, sed qui plus cupit, pauper est". - Seneca

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:44:45 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> It's misplaced to criticize Shimano for failing to comromise their premier racing components just
>> so some geezers and wheezers who need lower gearing than what is normally required for road
>> racing will have it.

>OK, I can accept (but generally find distasteful) that you refer to me as "some geezer and wheezer"

I meant no disrespect and certainly not to you individually - I would never refer to a group of
which I am so conspicuously a member in a pejorative way. After all, geezerhood has status that must
be earned, not merely bought (except maybe at Rivendell).

> but you'd also have to put Roberto Heras in that camp... he used a 30 front/25 rear *triple* on
> the Angrilu stage of the Veulta last year. Oh yeah, he also won it going away.

You partly make my case for me. If such gearing were not outside the norm (even by Grand Tour
standards), Heras' Angliru win using the 7703 setup wouldn't still be regarded as notable. Now, if
he'd also raced _the other 20 days_ of that Vuelta with the triple installed, I might be more easily
persuaded that it represents no compromise compared to the double.

>Campy has also seen the wisdom of offering lower gearing on their "ensemble for elite racing
>applications" with a 29 tooth rear cassette.

Yes, but to do so engendered the complexity of having a second rear derailleur option to accommodate
it (plus yet a third rear derailleur option if the 29 is part of a triple setup).

>I would also suggest that it's the "geezer and wheezer" crowd that subsidizes the racers, by buying
>in much larger quantities than the racers
>do. Oh yeah, and they also pay retail for it. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

There's already more than enough sentiment expressed here on rbt about the venality of component
makers' decisions and designs and how they're influenced by their marketing departments. If it
develops that a ten-speed, Dura-Ace level triple is offered in the future, I'd hope its existence
can be justified by more than "we thought we could make a few bucks" else Shimano invite further
criticism of its merchandising programs.

-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida http://www.businesscycles.com Now in our twenty-first
year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------

 

[Jeff Starr]

"onefred" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > ideal, when I go to the 30-39-53. But, seeing as I'm not aware of a Shimano 24 tooth sprocket,
> > the 13-23 will do.
>
> Hey, I ride a 13-23! I think it's the only component on my bike that is NOT Dura-Ace! So there.

OK, you don't ride Dura-Ace, so that you can brag to your golfing buddies, do you? As far as 24t
goes, I spoke without double checking. I just looked at my 2003 Shimano catalog and there is indeed
a 24t listed as part of a 12-27 Dura-Ace cassette. and then I reread the thread and Sheldon already
offered to build a cassette for someone, with a 24t sprocket. I have a 39-52 with a 6 speed 14-28 on
my old bike and here where I ride, I can get away with that, but if I had more than 6, I would want
a 32 or 34 with the double crank. I like the triple though, I usually use it once or twice, on my
usual routes. With a 10 speed cassette and the 30-39-53, then I'd be happy with a
12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,21,24. But realistically on my budget 10 speed components are out of the
question. Anyway going from 6 [12-speed] to a 9 [27-speed] has been a big and wonderful step
forward. One thing no one has mentioned, is that we should see some good prices on the outdated
9-speed components. Places like Nashbar, and Cambria should eventually have some decent deals. Well,
I'm hoping;-) My friends told me, no biking gear for Christmas. They think I have everything that I
need. Boy, I hope they're kidding;-) Life is Good! Jeff

Sometimes a 12t is nice, though.
>
> About that 24t, I think that you mint be able to find one in a Deore LX cassette. I'd be
> surprised if you couldn't. I know it was available in the 8s era. But isn't there a 24t in the
> 12-27 105 (HG-70) 9s cassette, Jeff? I tell ya, a 13-27 is a nice combo, too, and a 12-27 10s
> would be even better.
>
> Dave

 

[David Damerell]

Tim McTeague <[email protected]> wrote:
>Me, well I'm waiting for someone to make an affordable 50/34 crank.

Sugino's 110/74 BCD cranks are affordable and would admit of this arrangement on a short BB spindle.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!

 

[Onefred]

> OK, you don't ride Dura-Ace, so that you can brag to your golfing buddies, do you?

I avoid Golf like a disease. The last thing I need is another hobby sucking my pockets of every last
penny to my name.

> One thing no one has mentioned, is that we should see some good prices on the outdated 9-speed
> components.

I would hope so, but...

That depends on how strongly we embrace the new 10s. Even though I can concede that it's possibly
better, I can continue with my 9s for quite a while. And finally, if everyone is looking for
bargains on 9s because 10s is out then I doubt it will come to be.

Dave

 

[Mike Jacoubowsk]

> There's already more than enough sentiment expressed here on rbt about the venality of component
> makers' decisions and designs and how they're influenced by their marketing departments. If it
> develops that a ten-speed, Dura-Ace level triple is offered in the future, I'd hope its existence
> can be justified by more than "we thought we could make a few bucks" else Shimano invite further
> criticism of its merchandising programs.

The best reason for Shimano to come out with a 10-speed triple is because people want and expect it.
It's a marketing *failure*, not success, for Shimano to not recognize the perceived need. There is
little justification for having less-sophisticated or functional (not that that's actually the case,
but that's how it's perceived) for the paying public than for the racers... once it's proven itself,
of course. However, I don't give all that much credit to the idea that racers test or prove that
equipment works, as it's been quite some time since I've seen road racers on new Shimano equipment
that was changed in response to their input.

> You partly make my case for me. If such gearing were not outside the norm (even by Grand Tour
> standards), Heras' Angliru win using the 7703 setup wouldn't still be regarded as notable. Now, if
> he'd also raced _the other 20 days_ of that Vuelta with the triple installed, I might be more
> easily persuaded that it represents no compromise compared to the double.

But the point is that the triple did enable him to ride the stage better. That Heras has a sponsor
whose budget allows him to install a triple and remove it at will is irrelevant; the important issue
is that, for many, that triple makes a lot of sense and would stay on the bike.

The Angrilu wasn't the only race where a triple has been used by the pros; there apparently were a
number of them at the SF Gran Prix. Ironically, I don't think that was a course that's a wise choice
on, because triples work best when you've got a longer hill and you're going to be spending some
quality time on that inner chainring (as opposed to constantly shifting onto and off of it).

Everything on our bikes represents some sort of compromise. Are you riding Conti Supersonics,
because you believe they're the fastest tire out there or do you ride something a bit heavier and
more durable? A triple crank weighs more and makes front derailleur adjustments pickier, no
question. But it also makes the bike a lot more friendly when the going gets *really* tough, and
gives its owner something to dream about if they don't have anything locally that will require such
lower gearing.

> Yes, but to do so engendered the complexity of having a second rear derailleur option to
> accommodate it (plus yet a third rear derailleur option if the 29 is part of a triple setup).

I don't rate that terribly high on the scale of difficulty, and doubt that it's taking engineering
resources away from more worthy endeavors. For Shimano, in particular, it should not be a very big
deal (with their vast inexperience from mountain bike equipment). The irony is that Campy doesn't
have such a history, and yet they're providing the options.

> I meant no disrespect and certainly not to you individually - I would never refer to a group of
> which I am so conspicuously a member in a pejorative way. After all, geezerhood has status that
> must be earned, not merely bought (except maybe at Rivendell).

You should see some of the "geezers" in our area... just way too darned fast! Sad thing about it is
that it means you can't use age as an excuse for getting slower. Darn. Bit the Rivendell thing is
about a subset of geezerhood, not mainstream. It's also not quite the case that "retro" and "geezer"
go together. Lots of younger guys who like retro, and lots of older guys who like the new stuff!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"John Dacey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Non qui parum habet, sed qui plus cupit, pauper est". - Seneca
>
> On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:44:45 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> It's misplaced to criticize Shimano for failing to comromise their premier racing components
> >> just so some geezers and wheezers who need lower gearing than what is normally required for
> >> road racing will have it.
>
> >OK, I can accept (but generally find distasteful) that you refer to me as "some geezer and
> >wheezer"
>
> I meant no disrespect and certainly not to you individually - I would never refer to a group of
> which I am so conspicuously a member in a pejorative way. After all, geezerhood has status that
> must be earned, not merely bought (except maybe at Rivendell).
>
> > but you'd also have to put Roberto Heras in that camp... he used a 30 front/25 rear *triple* on
> > the Angrilu stage of the Veulta last year. Oh yeah, he also won it going away.
>
> You partly make my case for me. If such gearing were not outside the norm (even by Grand Tour
> standards), Heras' Angliru win using the 7703 setup wouldn't still be regarded as notable. Now, if
> he'd also raced _the other 20 days_ of that Vuelta with the triple installed, I might be more
> easily persuaded that it represents no compromise compared to the double.
>
> >Campy has also seen the wisdom of offering lower gearing on their
"ensemble
> >for elite racing applications" with a 29 tooth rear cassette.
>
> Yes, but to do so engendered the complexity of having a second rear derailleur option to
> accommodate it (plus yet a third rear derailleur option if the 29 is part of a triple setup).
>
> >I would also suggest that it's the "geezer and wheezer" crowd that subsidizes the racers, by
> >buying in much larger quantities than the
racers
> >do. Oh yeah, and they also pay retail for it. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> > http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
> There's already more than enough sentiment expressed here on rbt about the venality of component
> makers' decisions and designs and how they're influenced by their marketing departments. If it
> develops that a ten-speed, Dura-Ace level triple is offered in the future, I'd hope its existence
> can be justified by more than "we thought we could make a few bucks" else Shimano invite further
> criticism of its merchandising programs.
>
> -------------------------------
> John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida http://www.businesscycles.com Now in our twenty-first
> year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
> -------------------------------

 

[Andrew Lee]

"Tim McTeague" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> Doh, make that SAVE finish.
>
> Tim
> >
> > When has Dura-Ace EVER been the same as one of the lower level groups safe finish?

How about the current brake levers?

 

[Rick Onanian]

On 14 Sep 2003 08:20:17 -0700, Jeff Starr <[email protected]> wrote: <snippage>

Jeff, you really ought to put some whitespace in your posts. A two-page-long paragraph is difficult
to read and I did not have the patience to read it.

> don't understand is why a number of the regular posters, so resent people wanting the best
> available. Compared to many other interests,

It's not that they resent you wanting the best available. They just resent you wanting to use or try
something that isn't what they prefer for you.

To their credit, many of them think they're helping; and in some situations, they probably
are. Mostly, such people just repeat what they want to repeat, and think that one sizing chart
fits all...
--
Rick Onanian

 

[Jeff Starr]

Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 14 Sep 2003 08:20:17 -0700, Jeff Starr <[email protected]> wrote: <snippage>
>
> Jeff, you really ought to put some whitespace in your posts. A two-page-long paragraph is
> difficult to read and I did not have the patience to read it.

If my post took up two pages, you are either using a very small screen or need to adjust your
resolution. You didn't have the paitence to read it, yet you found the time to reply, interesting.
It's funny, I never figured you for a slow reader, your posts are usually intelligent and often say
or ask what I am thinking;-)

>
> > don't understand is why a number of the regular posters, so resent people wanting the best
> > available. Compared to many other interests,
>
> It's not that they resent you wanting the best available. They just resent you wanting to use or
> try something that isn't what they prefer for you.

I don't think they resent "me" at all. It is the elusive yuppie scum
that owns a bike for all the wrong reasons, that they seem to resent.

>
> To their credit, many of them think they're helping; and in some situations, they probably
> are. Mostly, such people just repeat what they want to repeat, and think that one sizing chart
> fits all...

Many are helping, I've learned a lot on this forum. It doesn't take long to figure out who is
helpful and who is just overly opinionated. Anyway, I'll work on my posting style, although I seldom
write such long dissertations. Life is Good! Jeff

 

[Tim McTeague]

Andrew Lee wrote:
> "Tim McTeague" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Doh, make that SAVE finish.
>>
>> Tim
>>>
>>> When has Dura-Ace EVER been the same as one of the lower level groups safe finish?
>
> How about the current brake levers?

?? Brifters? Calipers? Neither are the same as the lower level groups.

Tim

 

[Rick Onanian]

On 15 Sep 2003 21:11:19 -0700, Jeff Starr <[email protected]> wrote:
> If my post took up two pages, you are either using a very small screen or need to adjust your
> resolution. You didn't have the paitence to

45 lines without a single blank line. It does get tough; I'm using a 17" monitor at 800x600 (not my
computer; that's a 17" @ 1280 . I use Opera as my newsreader (not the best choice, but quick &
easy), and am not sure what font point size it displays in...it appears to be 10 or 12.

At lower resolutions, the print is larger and the lines are easier to track, but of course, it takes
many page downs to see the whole thing; and when you page-down, it's hard to keep track of what line
you were on.

At higher resolutions, the print gets smaller, and you no longer need to scroll; but with small
print, it's hard for the eyes to word-wrap.

> read it, yet you found the time to reply, interesting. It's funny, I

I have a short attention span. Short paragraphs make it easy to divide my attention; but just the
readability, even with good eyesight, makes a difference.

If I was using tin on unix, I'd have no problem; console fonts always seem more readable for me,
even if I have them up to 80 or 132 lines.

> never figured you for a slow reader, your posts are usually intelligent and often say or ask what
> I am thinking;-)

I'm no slow reader, just impatient. I'm glad to hear somebody appreciates my posts, I usually expect
that everybody wants me to just shut the hell up already.

> I don't think they resent "me" at all. It is the elusive yuppie scum that owns a bike for all the
> wrong reasons, that they seem to resent.

Er, anybody who owns a better bike than me for all the wrong reasons, well, I suppose I'd resent
them too.

If they own an unimpressive bike, then I can't see resenting them, but to each his own.

> Many are helping, I've learned a lot on this forum. It doesn't take long to figure out who is
> helpful and who is just overly opinionated.

True. Many are very helpful, even if they are overly opinionated. Others are very helpful and
non-opinionated. Then there are a few who aren't even helpful. Yet, even they sometimes have
something worthwhile to say.

> Anyway, I'll work on my posting style, although I seldom write such long dissertations.

I've been working on my posting style; it was quite the antithesis to yours. I've noticed that my
posts were a bit unpleasant to read because my lines were too short and I used a single sentence per
paragraph. I now make a concious effort to use longer lines (I measured to 60 characters on my
screen and try to go about that far), and longer paragraphs, to try to complete an idea in one
paragraph.

I do still prefer my bulleted-list style for many small points, but will use my new longer lines.

> Life is Good!

Yes indeed.

> Jeff
--
Rick "Usenet Format Nazi" Onanian

 

[Gwhite]

Tim McTeague wrote:
>
> Me, well I'm waiting for someone to make an affordable 50/34 crank. I understand FSA is going to
> make an aluminum version of their carbon crank in the near future. The idea of $300+ cranks kind
> of puts me off as the weight savings is not really that important.

You'll probably need to buy the 50 since most won't come with exactly what you want anyway. Sheldon
gave you a link to a nice priced 110 double. The Sugino double that Rivendell sells comes with a
46-34, IIRC.

The Riv site is down at the moment -- but they did *add* a Sugino double after the earlier retailing
of the similar triple. (The triple will be going up in price shortly, so get it now if you want to
save $35.)

 

[prestonjb]

I'll give my 2 cents on the DuraAce triple flame-wars.

WHAT DID THEY USE IN LAST YEAR'S VELTA?

I think that says it all... If you think not using a triple is something a racer does (or someting an old geezer does) then you may now go nurse your ego because you are wrong. Racers use triples all of the time so I'm sure Shimano will introduce a triple 10-speed DA when they are ready (and the RACERS demand it too!)

 

[Rick Onanian]

On 17 Sep 2003 06:59:30 -0700, Jeff Starr <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi, I read and post from Google rec. website. I have never learned about or how to join and use
> newsgroups. Are they easier to follow? I

Yeah, it's easier with what I use; it's even better with a proper newsreader. Sometimes it's still
useful to use groups.google.com to get a better feel for the history of the thread, or to reference
something in specific, or to search; so a combination of a newsreader for daily use and
groups.google.com for special-purpose use works well.

> find when threads get long and people are posting under different previous posts, within the
> thread, it is hard not to miss a post. I

You can sort by date with groups.google.com.

> use Netscape for my email and there is a section for newsgroups. I may have to look into properly
> utilizing newsgroups.

I used to use Netscape for newsfroups, worked fine.

> Take care, Jeff
--
Rick Onanian