1k hill climb-Manayunk Wall

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by kopride, Nov 20, 2006.

  1. kopride

    kopride Member

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    It got buried in the lifting apologist thread, but I am looking for winter training advice to prepare for a 1k hill climb time trial in June. Steepest grade is 17% and winner averaged 25 mph over the whole course (not all of which is that steep). I am looking to win the over 40 age group. I am generally a good climber, on steep grades. Basically, I have to generate a huge number of watts over 1:30 to do well in this event. As a side note, if I get too specific for training for this event, will I lose some edge on longer flatter rides?
     
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  2. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum New Member

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    I found a result for 2000 where the winner averaged 31.7km/h and completed the course in 1:50. Have the winners got substantially faster or are you guesstimating inaccurately? If you post a climb profile and the winning time in your category/age group I will try to go over it for you.

    I would say so. More on longer rides than flatter rides.
     
  3. cuttr

    cuttr New Member

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  4. Pureshot78

    Pureshot78 New Member

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    Downhill Race
    At midnight, the morning of the International Championship an unsanctioned race down the wall has taken place since 1996. It is known to organizers and participants as "The Downhill." The race was conceived at a local drinking establishment, The Dawson Street Pub. Racers gather at The Pub before the race and then walk in unison to "The Wall." The race starts at Manayunk Avenue and Lyceum Avenue and continues to the bottom of the hill or until where police have the street blocked off. Some of the vehicles used in the race include; BMX bikes, tricycles, shopping carts, wheelchairs, skateboards, bed frames, roller skates. After being promoted on a local radio station in 2003, the event has grown in popularity and in 2006 several thousand spectators attended. Injuries and arrests are common.

    Maybe you should train for this race instead. The training plan... curl a pint in each arm repeatedly. :D
     
  5. gvanwagner

    gvanwagner New Member

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    This TT is probably harder than any other to get right technically. A lot of people underestimate just how long 1.5 min is when you start off at maximal. Also the matter of gearing is very importaqnt as there is no good way to shift on a 17%er but you get bogged down in the big ring and spin too fast in the small ring. I think I spent most of the time on a 42x17? For 1:40 I didn't have a PM but Id guess I was around 480watts at 68kilos. As far as training then it's all about 30s-2min intervals with full rests. Also ride the course at full filt as many times as possible- like dozens if possible.
     
  6. kopride

    kopride Member

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    Good advice. I have been doing a fair share of pyramid intervals 30/45/1m/45/30 with 30 s rest between each on an indoor spin bike (L4). When you say "full rest" what type of rest period are you doing? I then also do a gradual hill interval where I increase the tension on my spin bike in minute increments for about a ten minute piece until I am standing for the last three minutes. Outdoors, I have been doing hill intervals up Diamond Rock Road (the back end off Yellow Springs, if you are a local). The hill is longer and almost as steep but does have a different profile than the wall. I also climb the same hill from different approaches (Country Club, Jug Handle, Clothier Springs). If you are going to do it this year, and are local, PM me and I will try to plan some training sessions.

    I am running a compact crank on my new bike so I was probably going to plan on a 34/15. For training outdoors, I have been trying to stay seated except where the grade is 10% or more, did you stay seated or stand for most of the climb? It is tough for me to get to the wall regularly, but I have been doing all the steepies on the LM side.

    Also, I am starting too early, or am I better with a winter LSD routine and then just step it up in April for hill specific workout?
     
  7. kopride

    kopride Member

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    I have done the downhill, one year on on a razor scooter and another on roller blades. On blades, it is absolutely terrifying. The training is minimal, just maintain friendly relations with your local orthopeadist. For anyone travelling out here in June, this is a good time. Also the real race itself is one of the greatest spots to watch elite cylists up close.
     
  8. kopride

    kopride Member

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  9. kopride

    kopride Member

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    Cuttr did the overall for 40+ which is closer to 1:32. The overall winner was in the 1:20's and the results indicated a 25+ average. It is a brutal very short very fast climb at maximal effort. The topo map isn't that helpful because of the scale. I have to imagine that some of the teams who compete in the US Pro Championships have better profiles but I haven't found one yet. Then again, they are doing it multiple times as part of a long race.
     
  10. bikedude40k

    bikedude40k New Member

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    Cool race! I'd enter, but the problem is that it is too far to travel. I'd have no advice. I have never done a short hill tt like that, but obviously it is an all out sprint (especially if someone got 25mph.) I'd just work on short, explosive power aswell as short climbing. If possible, ride the course repeatedly to see every corner- crucial for something that short. Just do sprint and interval training a lot.Sorry I can't be of more help!
     
  11. gvanwagner

    gvanwagner New Member

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    If your aiming at 1:30 then a 34x15 might be too small. If your very very very confident in your FD not to drop your chain shifting from big to small under heavy torque- The there's a very short plataue after the bottom pretty steep part and the 2nd half which is the 17%+kicker. You could do a 50x15/16 for that half then a quick shift to your 34 with the same back gear. The one year I know a lot of people biffed it on the cobbles but it was raining too.
     
  12. gvanwagner

    gvanwagner New Member

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    Also for this race the torque component is huge- I my cadence was like 80 so the torque is probably a lot higher then even a full out sprint. This is a really specific event in that it's not like any other event on the calendar physiologically. I think that if you put some thought into it then you have a huge immediate advantage because most people go into it totally unprepared for the specific demands and technique.
     
  13. kopride

    kopride Member

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    Thanks for the advice. I am going to try and get out there this weekend to see where I am starting from in terms of time. I have better benchmarks on another steepie in our area which is (Diamond Rock) but I still don't think that the grade at the bend is anywhere near 17%. The downshift from big ring to small is an achilles hill of my FSA compact. I wonder whether I can just spin the lower part in a crossover 34/12 and stay in the small chain ring to the top. If the chain drops, then the race is over.

    The uniqueness of this event is partly why I am doing it. I figure if I train the early part of the season for explosive power in a short event, then I will be set up for shorter crits for the rest of the season. In the fall, I don't race and instead like to do charity rides b/c my kids are involved in fall sports and Pop Warner hell begins in August. If I try and squeeze in a July vacation, my racing window is very tight. It is too easy for me over the winter and early spring to go through the motions and rationalize it as building base miles. Then I have no power when I get on the road.
     
  14. gregkeller

    gregkeller New Member

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    Get a 3rd eye chain watcher, this little gizmo makes it next to impossible to throw the chain past the inner chainring. Weighs next to nothing and will allow you to go from the 50 to the 34.
     
  15. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    In spite of the short duration of this event, I do not think this is a constant power ride. And, there is no such thing as a max power effort for anything longer than 5 secs. So, this is a managed power ride with more power on the steeper sections and less power on the less steep sections. The optimal plan could involve huge changes in power (e.g., 4:1 max:min). Your objective is to exhaust your AWC as you cross the finish line. Can't help you with a detailed plan, but that's the concept.
     
  16. SolarEnergy

    SolarEnergy New Member

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    1:30 all out, that's a very long anaerobic capacity test. Anything you'll do that's aimed at improving your anaerobic capacity will help.

    More specifically though, as gvanwagner pointed out, 1:30 is very very long ac test. It's so long that it even becomes very stressful for the aerobic metabolism as well (which need to operate at a very high rate in order to help coping with the demand).

    So don't neglect the mental component (pain tolerence, lactate tolerence whatever). Don't neglect >60s reps, and even shorter VO2Max reps (2-3min) should pay off in regard to this aspect as well.
     
  17. gvanwagner

    gvanwagner New Member

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    I disagree- I think that this is a fairly evenly paced type of TT. I say that because it's basically accelerate then your immediately at the base of the hill. So there's really only one about 15meter section on the cobbles where there's not a good payoff for a higher power output. I think that the most you can do with a PM would be to go about averaging what you can do for 1.5min. I think that most peoples natural pacing skills work well on this as long they don't overestimate what they can do for 1.5 min.
     
  18. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    If the grade is constant, this would be true. Is the grade constant? My impression is that it is not, but I haven't broken down the course profile in detail (and don't intend to).

    People vary enormously in their ability to pace themselves by feel. Even the pros tend to take it out too fast in TTs. The pacing problem for this ride is most like that of similar duration track events (other than the grade changes). I don't do track events but it's my understanding that the classic error in pacing is to take it out too hard and then die in the 2nd half. A 1.5min event is absolutely long enough to ride a poorly conceived power profile.
     
  19. RipVanCommittee

    RipVanCommittee New Member

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    While I agree with you to an extent, the other factor you have to take into account is the flatness of one's PD curve over this duration. For example, My 1:30 power is right around 500W, and my 30 second power is embassingly close to 500W...so it wouldn't make a lot of sense, IMHO, to 'save up' for the hardest parts--since I probably couldn't go much harder anyway. For someone with high 30 second power, your strategy probably makes sense. If I were doing it, however, I'd gun it the whole way.
     
  20. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    The PD curve and the course grades are exactly what one would use to develop an optimal pacing plan. I have no idea what the best pacing plan is for this course, but grade variances offer the greatest payoff for variable power pacing (as compared with, say, wind speed and direction). Obviously, the straw man for comparison is a constant power effort at one's max power for the estimated duration. Without collecting some data and doing some analysis, I have no idea what the best pacing plan is but I do know that a variable power pacing plan should not be disregarded without any analysis. This race is going to be decided in single digit seconds. I'd want every advantage I could get (short of inhaling a full bottle of helium before the start).
     
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