2,5 min VO2max intervals

[numminummi]

My coach have told me to do 4-5 2,5 min intervals with 2,5 min rest to target VO2max. From what i've read in books this duration is however too short to target VO2max. To quote Coggan "if there is another "no man's land", I'd put it at whatever intensity you can maintain for ~2 to ~3 min. Unless you really kill it just a couple of times, it is hard to go hard enough to really stress anaerobic capacity, yet such intervals are too short to really put adequate emphasis on VO2max (unless you use really short rest intervals, of course)."


What are your thoughts - any point in doing these intervals?

 

[RapDaddyo]

From what you have said, it's hard to tell because you don't state your planned intensity for the intervals. But, the gold standard for VO2MAX efforts is 120%FTP for approximately 5mins with a minimum 5min rest duration. Not everybody can do 120%FTP for 5mins because it depends on your specific power/duration profile. You can easily test this by getting warmed up and then riding at 120%FTP until you can no longer maintain the power. The reason for the 5min rest durations rather than your plan of 2.5mins is because of the recovery half-life of anaerobic work capacity. The recovery half-life is 30secs, so after 2.5 mins you are only about 97% recovered whereas after 5mins you are 99.9% recovered. If the primary training objective is VO2MAX, why would you not want to be fully recovered? If you do them with a shortened recovery duration, you will see a progressive decline in the power or duration or both of the VO2MAX efforts. Now, don't be surprised to see your power or duration or both drop a bit anyway, due to the fact that part of your AWC has a long recovery half-life. For this reason, I tend to do them at 120%FTP but for only about 90% of my max duration when fresh. So, if my max duration is 5mins when fresh, I will do my VO2MAX training efforts at about 4.5mins. Hope this helps.

 

[numminummi]

The intensity is all out. For me that is well above 120% FTP - my 5 min max is 121% FTP. If i understand what you say this means that i should make the intervals longer 4-5 min.

But why is it important that the anaerobic system is recovered when the goal is aerobic development?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Yes, if I were you I would do them at about 4.5 mins. As to why achieve full recovery between efforts, that's the purpose of your efforts. If your primary objective is aerobic, then do the standard L4s or high L3s. If your primary objective is VO2MAX, then do the efforts at an intensity and duration designed to achieve the targeted adaptation, but recover fully between efforts. Let's look at the consequence of not fully recovering between efforts. Each effort will decline in intensity or duration or both. So, you're diminishing the amount of quality time spent on your primary training objective. Why?

 

[bgoetz]

So how would you classify my workout this morning? I did as many 3x3 intervals as I could do till I totally crumbled. I started at 420 AP and slowly declined till by number 8 I was as low as 340AP. Long Lactate tollerance, plain stupid, lol? Guess I need to do longer intervals with longer recovery though, 120% of my FTP is a max 5min effort though, which is why I was only doing 3min, but yeah after about the 3rd interval my power drops significantly.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .

So how would you classify my workout this morning? I did as many 3x3 intervals as I could do till I totally crumbled. I started at 420 AP and slowly declined till I was as low as 340AP. Long Lactate tollerance, plain stupid, lol? Guess I need to do longer intervals with longer recovery though, 120% of my FTP is a max 5min effort though, which is why I was only doing 3min, but yeah after about the 3rd interval my power drops significantly.

It was an AWC workout (L6). And, yes, if you ride each L6 to your limit, you will experience a progressive drop in power or duration or both. This is unavoidable and explains why a rider can stay with you during an anaerobic push early in a race or hard training ride but who gets dropped later. Each push drains his AWC tank a little bit and eventually he maxes out before you do. If you have a high AWC, you can use that to your advantage by throwing in repeated surges. Don't worry if most guys can stay with you for the first or second or third push. I'm reminded of the great line in the movie, Force 10 from Navaronne. Edward Fox plays the role of Miller, the explosives expert whose job it is to blow a huge bridge. After the explosion, his colleague points out that nothing is happening. Miller says something like, "Give it time, mate, give it time." Sure enough, in a few minutes the bridge begins to come apart due to the water pressure and the fissures. So, when you're trying to drop guys with your AWC, just keep throwing in the reps and give it time.

 

[bgoetz]

Didn't we decide that I need to do more VO2 intervals vs AWC? So I guess I am missing the boat and need to try some 5x5s

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .

Didn't we decide that I need to do more VO2 intervals vs AWC? So I guess I am missing the boat and need to try some 5x5s

I would say do some of each, with perhaps a slightly larger percentage of L6s. With your FTP where it is, I don't think you're going to get dropped due to an inadequate FTP. So, that turns the question to what you want to develop to be able to winnow down the field. Increasing your AWC with L6s is (in my view) your most likely way to create a competitive weapon. Not only can you shake some guys loose during the ride, but you can launch a long sprint and beat some guys that may have a slightly higher max 5s power than you. Now, why do I say a slightly larger percentage of L6s? Because of the ripple effect, especially from left to right on the power/duration curve. L6s will bleed over to benefit VO2MAX more than the reverse. In fact, some studies suggest that riders increased their FTPs substantially with a training diet of only L6s!

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by numminummi .

My coach have told me to do 4-5 2,5 min intervals with 2,5 min rest to target VO2max. From what i've read in books this duration is however too short to target VO2max. To quote Coggan "if there is another "no man's land", I'd put it at whatever intensity you can maintain for ~2 to ~3 min. Unless you really kill it just a couple of times, it is hard to go hard enough to really stress anaerobic capacity, yet such intervals are too short to really put adequate emphasis on VO2max (unless you use really short rest intervals, of course)."


What are your thoughts - any point in doing these intervals?

You have a coach and don't want to follow his instruction? Part ways with the coach.

 

[numminummi]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .


You have a coach and don't want to follow his instruction? Part ways with the coach.

Or not.. I've had great results with him and this is the only little thing I find hard to make sense of. The reason for this post was to see if I was wrong or I really should ask him critical questions on these intervals

 

[bgoetz]

Or not.. I've had great results with him and this is the only little thing I find hard to make sense of. The reason for this post was to see if I was wrong or I really should ask him critical questions on these intervals

Don't feel the need to respond to AOG, he is the forum . Responding to him just causes him to spew inaccurate, stupid statements, followed by a lame fictional story of his fantasy life, that further supports the fact that he is a total .

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by numminummi .


Or not.. I've had great results with him and this is the only little thing I find hard to make sense of. The reason for this post was to see if I was wrong or I really should ask him critical questions on these intervals

The purpose of VO2max intervals is to place your heart rate in a range where you will get some positive response. Power is only used as a guide to get you to the range, keep you in the range, and then to let you recover. Three different power profiles.

Longer intervals are useful only if you are able to keep your heart rate in the desired range for the length of the interval.

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If I were doing VO2max intervals I would use 150%FTP for 45 seconds to get to my desired heart range, 100%FPT for how ever long I could maintain my heart rate in the desired range, and then 0-50% FTP until my heart rate fell to revovery level.

That would give me 2-2.5 minutes (recovery and ramping up my heart rate) between efforts. I might be able to do 2-3 minute efforts.

I can see your coach being right.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by An old Guy .

The purpose of VO2max intervals is to place your heart rate in a range where you will get some positive response. Power is only used as a guide to get you to the range, keep you in the range, and then to let you recover. Three different power profiles.

Longer intervals are useful only if you are able to keep your heart rate in the desired range for the length of the interval.

If I were doing VO2max intervals I would use 150%FTP for 45 seconds to get to my desired heart range, 100%FPT for how ever long I could maintain my heart rate in the desired range, and then 0-50% FTP until my heart rate fell to revovery level.

This post is so revealing. Now I get it, AOG manages his intensity based on HR. Maybe AOG owns a power meter (I'm still not convinced), but he has no idea how to use it.

 

[bgoetz]

Didn't take me long to prove my point