2 x 20 or 1 x 40?

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by matt76, Sep 14, 2013.

  1. matt76

    matt76 New Member

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    Most training programs uses 2 x 20 as a typical training session to increase FTP? Is there any reason to why you should do 2x20 instead of for exemple 1x40? Or is it the total time spent in your zone? Can you do 8x5 and get the same result. I find it easier to count down from 20' and motivate yourself for that last few minute. At the same time it is very hard to do the 2nd intervall if you go to hard in the first...
     
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  2. steve

    steve Administrator
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    Great question! I've often wondered the same - 20 vs 40 or 60min intervals.
     
  3. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    On a turbo I find it hard to get past 12 min intervals. when I'm out I find it better to go hard for an hour though. I think its all mental though.

    In regards to the actual intervals demand on you're body AFAIK the longer time spent just below threshold the better because you're body is constantly building and clearing. Rather than building up then needing the release.

    I think of it as a workload that is better taught to youre body as you are taxing it to the limit but not over for as long a duration as possible.

    Isn't that what the time trial skill essentially is. Being able to stay at or just below threshold for longer than the others?

    btw im a complete new guy so none of this should be taken as any kind of correctness. Just my interpretation.
     
  4. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by matt76 .

    Most training programs uses 2 x 20 as a typical training session to increase FTP? Is there any reason to why you should do 2x20 instead of for exemple 1x40?

    Convenience, chance to have a saddle break, but physiologically, no particular reason

    Quote: Originally Posted by matt76 .

    Or is it the total time spent in your zone?

    I would say it's contiguous time at the right level is probably a better way of thinking about it. Besides, such work is pretty specific to long contiguous threshold efforts (e.g. time trials, breakaways, hillclimbs, bridging across, chasing down) so unless you actually train it, who knows what you can really do?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by matt76 .

    Can you do 8x5 and get the same result.

    I find it easier to count down from 20' and motivate yourself for that last few minute. At the same time it is very hard to do the 2nd intervall if you go to hard in the first...
    I sometimes prescribe 5-min efforts at L4 (as opposed to specific L5 work), because I want to increase the overall load on a particular endurance ride day but not make it overly taxing. As much for mental, breaking up a ride, make it more interesting or to introduce someone to that level when they are coming back from a bit of time off or are new to structured riding before we jump straight into longer L4 work.

    I also prescibe shorter L4 at times because some riders can't help themselves and really do L5 work ;-) It's a bit of reverse psychology to help them pace themselves better

    For threshold development, while most riding above recovery levels has some benefit, in general the greater benefits accrue from longer contiguous efforts of at least 10-minutes, although I can't say I can point you to a specific reference on that.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by matt76 .

    I find it easier to count down from 20' and motivate yourself for that last few minute. At the same time it is very hard to do the 2nd intervall if you go to hard in the first...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .
    On a turbo I find it hard to get past 12 min intervals. when I'm out I find it better to go hard for an hour though. I think its all mental though.


    Pacing is key. Be a little conservative in the first effort. You can always lift the effort later, or make it a little longer.
     
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  5. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Alex Simmons .
    Pacing is key. Be a little conservative in the first effort. You can always lift the effort later, or make it a little longer.


    To be honest I try and sit at a set wattage of 219-243 for all the duration of all the efforts. Burns nicely but doesn't get to the point where I feel I have to stop with that. Only my first week or two of intervals with power though so I'm sure mental toughness is a big aspect. I try and keep it strict because my garmin has a spas fit if I'm outside the zones [​IMG].

    My biggest problem is I always start thinking oh I cant do it. But when I work in my zone 4 strictly it gives me that re-assurance that I can do it regardless of how tierd my legs feel.

    I'm going to work on a pattern of increasing the threshold intervals each week of training until the next FTP test. so first week is 3x12 mins. Second week will be 3x20 mins 3rd week will be 2x30 mins and 4th week will be 2x40 mins. I think it will train my body to get used to longer efforts while at the same time they get a little bit easier. Or that's the plan...
     
  6. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS .
    I'm going to work on a pattern of increasing the threshold intervals each week of training until the next FTP test. so first week is 3x12 mins. Second week will be 3x20 mins 3rd week will be 2x30 mins and 4th week will be 2x40 mins. I think it will train my body to get used to longer efforts while at the same time they get a little bit easier. Or that's the plan...


    I'd suggest you give more thought to those weekly jumps. 3x12m is 36 mins of L4. 3x20 is 60 mins - thats doubling the workload in a week so good luck with that! Try something like 3x12, 2x20, 3x15, 3x18 etc and make more achievable jumps, or some other combo that works for you. Theres also quite a difference in 219-243w so you might want to try and be a little more focused if you want to keep different intervals comparable and a steady progression in workload. Thats 10% and could be the difference between working at FTP or top of tempo in a workout.
     
  7. Subliminal-SS

    Subliminal-SS New Member

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    If you look a little closer at the jumps they are smaller after Week 1 but consistently at 60 mins or above.

    My theory which I am testing is that if you cannot perform an interval at just below youre FTP (lower half of Zone 4) in my case 219-243 Watts then youre FTP is set too high.

    219-243 was given as a value as its above tempo and just below actual FTP. Weak days allow a slip down to ~225 good days allow for up to 243w.

    I'm just beginning so as I do each interval it gets allot easier each time (for now anyway).

    The first week is 36 mins. This is half my target Z4 Time per day (1 Hour). The first week is to serve as a compliment to the FTP test and I know that If i score high on the FTP test and am able to complete the intervals then its ok and its not to high or low and it doesnt throw me into a week of 1 hour intervals at a new level. I feel easing into that is more appropriate.

    Following on from this the second week I should be stronger and can introduce Worthwhile interval training i.e. 1 Hour in desired zone at least. This allows me to stay on target for my 5 hours at L4+ for the week. I believe 1 hour at FTP in intervals is perfectly achievable especially with rest intervals. Or else its not my FTP.

    Quote Myself "On a turbo I find it hard to get past 12 min intervals. When I'm out I find it better to go hard for an hour though. I think its all mental though."

    I know the above line sort of contradicts what I say but the first bit of the line is what I'm challenging and the final bit is what I'm theorising [​IMG]
     
  8. joroshiba

    joroshiba New Member

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    There is a small loss in gains perhaps in doing 2x20s versus a 1x40 or a 1x60 for FTP improvements, but mentally it is easier tackle, get out and go do it at power targets. Also far more convenient in terms of finding a road to do them on. I have a little loop I do for my efforts. It used to take a little over 20min now takes a minute or two under, but it is so darn convenient I don't bother changing it.
     
  9. workingguy

    workingguy Member

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    Last race (and ride) I did was Manhattan Beach GP in 2010. FTP was 240 and weight 63kg. After the long break I'm getting on the bike again and weighing 69kg. I can't seem to focus for 20 mins - end up going too hard and giving up or reducing power dramatically. I break the effort into 3 minutes (195W) with 1 minute rest (120W) with the average power at 181 and 176. Eventually I should be able to do the full 20 minute at constant power. Oh these are on Kreilter with Killer headwind fan, so I control the power and interval length.

    upload_2016-10-19_16-40-59.png
     
  10. dkrenik

    dkrenik Member

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    And?
    Sounds like your target wattage isn't reasonable.
    Dredging up a thread that's 3 years old?
     
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