2004 Chorus single pivot brake setup

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Gareth Beale, Aug 10, 2004.

  1. Gareth Beale

    Gareth Beale Guest

    I have a set of 2004 Chorus brakes I installed on a new bike I built up. I have a
    question regarding the setup of the rear brake, which is single pivot. The instructions
    call for installing and tightening the bolt, then using a 15mm wrench to centre the
    brake. So far so good. However, even tightened down, the calipers rock slightly from
    side to side. It is possible to push from one side and cause the pad on that side to
    stay in place and rub against the rim. In the workstand, it appeared that applying the
    brake caused the calipers to centre them selves again, so I didn't worry about it.

    On the road however, I discovered that the calipers did not remain centred. The rear brake
    was rubbing on one side. If I adjust them out far enough it doesn't happen, but of course
    there's more travel required in the brake lever. I don't typically set the rear brake as
    close as the front one in any case, but this is further out than usual for me.

    Is this rocking of the calipers normal for the single pivot brake?

    Any advice is appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Gareth Beale
     
    Tags:


  2. richard

    richard Guest

    1. Check the torque specs for that nut

    2. Borrow a torque wrence & hex bit

    My single pivot Record have never wavered off-center.

    Gareth Beale wrote:
    > I have a set of 2004 Chorus brakes I installed on a new bike I built up. I have a
    > question regarding the setup of the rear brake, which is single pivot. The instructions
    > call for installing and tightening the bolt, then using a 15mm wrench to centre the
    > brake. So far so good. However, even tightened down, the calipers rock slightly from
    > side to side. It is possible to push from one side and cause the pad on that side to
    > stay in place and rub against the rim. In the workstand, it appeared that applying the
    > brake caused the calipers to centre them selves again, so I didn't worry about it.
    >
    > On the road however, I discovered that the calipers did not remain centred. The rear brake
    > was rubbing on one side. If I adjust them out far enough it doesn't happen, but of course
    > there's more travel required in the brake lever. I don't typically set the rear brake as
    > close as the front one in any case, but this is further out than usual for me.
    >
    > Is this rocking of the calipers normal for the single pivot brake?
    >
    > Any advice is appreciated.
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Gareth Beale
     
  3. Mark

    Mark Guest

    [email protected] (Gareth Beale) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > I have a set of 2004 Chorus brakes I installed on a new bike I built up. I have a
    > question regarding the setup of the rear brake, which is single pivot. The instructions
    > call for installing and tightening the bolt, then using a 15mm wrench to centre the
    > brake. So far so good. However, even tightened down, the calipers rock slightly from
    > side to side. It is possible to push from one side and cause the pad on that side to
    > stay in place and rub against the rim. In the workstand, it appeared that applying the
    > brake caused the calipers to centre them selves again, so I didn't worry about it.
    >
    > On the road however, I discovered that the calipers did not remain centred. The rear brake
    > was rubbing on one side. If I adjust them out far enough it doesn't happen, but of course
    > there's more travel required in the brake lever. I don't typically set the rear brake as
    > close as the front one in any case, but this is further out than usual for me.
    >
    > Is this rocking of the calipers normal for the single pivot brake?
    >
    > Any advice is appreciated.
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Gareth Beale


    Hi Gareth, I'm currently in the middle of a build up with all 2004
    Campy Record Components, and I have noticed the exact same crap with
    the rear Record Caliper. I honestly hate this set-up they designed,
    and Campy seems to have touted this "Differential" baloney, like it's
    the greatest thing since sliced bread. It really isn't IMO.

    Here, all they actually did to cut weight, and reduce braking effiency
    at the rear wheel, was to go back in time 20 years, and back to
    ancient technology (And then charge you through the nose for it to
    boot). These are the exact same nasty problems of the calipers of old.

    I would've honestly much preferred the Dual Pivot Design by far, and
    in fact, I so much dislike this design, that I have considered
    retrograding the brakes to Veloce/Centaur, and sell the new Record
    Units. I also learned this the hard way, and had I known this was the
    arrangement with Record/Chorus, I would've never bought them. The
    Veloce Calipers I have on my Bianchi will work better IMO than Record,
    and doesn't exhibit these shortcomings

    I see no real advantage, at least not during dry weather riding, a
    user can easily manipulate braking force with thier own hands,and the
    weight savings is really not going to make one bit of difference to
    anyone.
    Mark D.
     
  4. Mark

    Mark Guest

    In Fact, While we're on this subject, I'd like to ask if anyone here
    knows of any dealers that sell Pre-Differential Record Calipers?

    Regardless of Campy's so called tests, what Campy says, or whatever
    anyone else says, I think the new differential's (Rear) are shit, and
    I want them off this bike. I ain't going to deal with the exact same
    problems you describe Gareth, at least not on this particular bike
    build up. Any help pointing me in the right direction would be
    appreciated.
    Your right, I've seen Huffy Calipers work better than these rear
    Record units.
    What the hell good are they, if they hang, and drag while riding? Mark
     
  5. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    Mark wrote:

    > In Fact, While we're on this subject, I'd like to ask if anyone here
    > knows of any dealers that sell Pre-Differential Record Calipers?
    >
    > Regardless of Campy's so called tests, what Campy says, or whatever
    > anyone else says, I think the new differential's (Rear) are shit, and
    > I want them off this bike. I ain't going to deal with the exact same
    > problems you describe Gareth, at least not on this particular bike
    > build up. Any help pointing me in the right direction would be
    > appreciated.
    > Your right, I've seen Huffy Calipers work better than these rear
    > Record units.
    > What the hell good are they, if they hang, and drag while riding? Mark


    That's not my experience but you're entitled to your
    opinion. I think that's just a sloppy setup.

    LBS sell Record brakes in silver finish in any combination (
    two SP, two DP or one of each) so you can indulge your
    beliefs. We can't buy the black ones in splits AFAIK.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  6. Tuschinski

    Tuschinski New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2003
    Messages:
    227
    Likes Received:
    0

    Hogwash. Something must be wrong (maybe the hole in the rearframe isn't true?). The Chorus non-dual pivot brakes are very very efficient and are easy to set up right. I add that the 2004 range of Campa brakes are the best I ever used. Stiff and responsive. And even after 3k (flat road, no hills!) miles I haven't needed to tighten the cable (!!!).
     
  7. Bob Wheeler

    Bob Wheeler Guest

    This is an old problem and the old solution is to tap the brake pivot
    into line after it is tightened. Use a wooden dowel and a hammer. Tap on
    the arm at the bolt to rotate it slightly about the pivot. The problem
    is that you have tightened down while the arms are slightly off center,
    and tapping in this way will correct the problem.

    Mark wrote:
    > [email protected] (Gareth Beale) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    >>I have a set of 2004 Chorus brakes I installed on a new bike I built up. I have a
    >>question regarding the setup of the rear brake, which is single pivot. The instructions
    >>call for installing and tightening the bolt, then using a 15mm wrench to centre the
    >>brake. So far so good. However, even tightened down, the calipers rock slightly from
    >>side to side. It is possible to push from one side and cause the pad on that side to
    >>stay in place and rub against the rim. In the workstand, it appeared that applying the
    >>brake caused the calipers to centre them selves again, so I didn't worry about it.
    >>
    >>On the road however, I discovered that the calipers did not remain centred. The rear brake
    >>was rubbing on one side. If I adjust them out far enough it doesn't happen, but of course
    >>there's more travel required in the brake lever. I don't typically set the rear brake as
    >>close as the front one in any case, but this is further out than usual for me.
    >>
    >>Is this rocking of the calipers normal for the single pivot brake?
    >>
    >>Any advice is appreciated.
    >>
    >>Thanks,
    >>
    >>Gareth Beale

    >



    --
    Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/
    ECHIP, Inc. ---
    Randomness comes in bunches.
     
  8. Appkiller

    Appkiller Guest

    Mark,

    Sounds like someone should spend a little more time with the manual.

    Either that or you have a defective brakeset.

    Based on your wild rant, I would guess the prior. Relax a little,
    read the install/adjustment instructions (all of them), have a beer,
    read the instructions again. Then install/adjust them PROPERLY.

    I have no problems with my differentials; plenty of braking power and
    they always return to the proper rest position. Is your pivot bolt
    too tight? Could be a manufacturing defect. Have you adjusted the
    spring tension properly?

    App, who really does like these brakes.
     
  9. Appkiller

    Appkiller Guest

    Mark,

    Sounds like someone should spend a little more time with the manual.

    Either that or you have a defective brakeset.

    Based on your wild rant, I would guess the prior. Relax a little,
    read the install/adjustment instructions (all of them), have a beer,
    read the instructions again. Then install/adjust them PROPERLY.

    I have no problems with my differentials; plenty of braking power and
    they always return to the proper rest position. Is your pivot bolt
    too tight? Could be a manufacturing defect. Have you adjusted the
    spring tension properly?

    App, who really does like these brakes.
     
  10. gfb-<< However, even tightened down, the calipers rock slightly from
    side to side. >><BR><BR>

    Normal. When centered with a 15mm-they will stay centered.

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  11. apoman-<< Regardless of Campy's so called tests, what Campy says, or whatever
    anyone else says, I think the new differential's (Rear) are shit, and
    I want them off this bike. >><BR><BR>

    YMMV I guess. I have 'em and they work fine.



    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  12. Gareth Beale

    Gareth Beale Guest

    Not really. It's near impossible to tighten down and keep the arms centred. That's
    why there is a centre bolt with flats to fit a 15mm wrench, as I described. That is
    how you are supposed to centre the arms. I try to avoid using a hammer on my bike
    if I can help it.


    In article <[email protected]>,
    Bob Wheeler <[email protected]> writes:
    |> This is an old problem and the old solution is to tap the brake pivot
    |> into line after it is tightened. Use a wooden dowel and a hammer. Tap on
    |> the arm at the bolt to rotate it slightly about the pivot. The problem
    |> is that you have tightened down while the arms are slightly off center,
    |> and tapping in this way will correct the problem.
    |>
    |> Mark wrote:
    |> > [email protected] (Gareth Beale) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    |> >
    |> >>I have a set of 2004 Chorus brakes I installed on a new bike I built up. I have a
    |> >>question regarding the setup of the rear brake, which is single pivot. The instructions
    |> >>call for installing and tightening the bolt, then using a 15mm wrench to centre the
    |> >>brake. So far so good. However, even tightened down, the calipers rock slightly from
    |> >>side to side. It is possible to push from one side and cause the pad on that side to
    |> >>stay in place and rub against the rim. In the workstand, it appeared that applying the
    |> >>brake caused the calipers to centre them selves again, so I didn't worry about it.
    |> >>
    |> >>On the road however, I discovered that the calipers did not remain centred. The rear brake
    |> >>was rubbing on one side. If I adjust them out far enough it doesn't happen, but of course
    |> >>there's more travel required in the brake lever. I don't typically set the rear brake as
    |> >>close as the front one in any case, but this is further out than usual for me.
    |> >>
    |> >>Is this rocking of the calipers normal for the single pivot brake?
    |> >>
    |> >>Any advice is appreciated.
    |> >>
    |> >>Thanks,
    |> >>
    |> >>Gareth Beale
    |> >
    |>
    |>
    |> --
    |> Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/
    |> ECHIP, Inc. ---
    |> Randomness comes in bunches.
    |>
     
  13. Steve Knight

    Steve Knight Guest


    >I would've honestly much preferred the Dual Pivot Design by far, and
    >in fact, I so much dislike this design, that I have considered
    >retrograding the brakes to Veloce/Centaur,


    those are the brakes I chose and they work great and no centering problems at
    all. Plus I found them new for 50.00

    --
    Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
    Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
    See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
     
  14. Mark

    Mark Guest

    Tuschinski <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > Hogwash. Something must be wrong (maybe the hole in the rearframe isn't
    > true?). The Chorus non-dual pivot brakes are very very efficient and are
    > easy to set up right. I add that the 2004 range of Campa brakes are the
    > best I ever used. Stiff and responsive. And even after 3k (flat road,
    > no hills!) miles I haven't needed to tighten the cable (!!!).


    These are my findings: No, the hole in the frame is perfect, and
    precise, and the frame I'm building is actually a work of art. In
    essence, this frame is a Waterford. I guess this enough said here.

    I'll agree, there will not be a problem with brake actuation, it
    appears crisp, and positive, and they do appear to correctly pull away
    from the rim, but they can be made to rock/move, and could create a
    slight rub condition.

    The very same thing can probably be said about any older style Campy,
    or other Single Pivot Caliper. Clean actuation I think has more to do
    with good cables, proper cable routing, and good lubrication, and
    operation of the Caliper itself.

    What seems to be typical though of this Single Pivot Caliper , is the
    "Rocking" that Gareth describes, and this is exactly what I notice
    also.

    If you were to manually try to rock these single pivot Units they will
    move, versus dual pivots do not. (Provided they are installed
    correctly.)

    As I have found, the Front Record Dual Pivot Caliper is as solid as a
    rock, and does not budge from side, to side and this permits very
    precise centering at each pad/side without deviation. As do my Veloce
    Dual Pivot F+R Calipers on the Bianchi I have.

    I'm sorry to all, if this appears to be a very minor quibble. While
    this slight rocking should not pose a "Dragging" problem that will
    hinder operation the bike, I guess it just a matter of personal
    preference what one prefers.

    I was first initially unaware that this was how the New Campy
    Record/Chorus D Calipers were designed. I know better now, and have
    learned something.

    As for any hopeful future build-ups, I will be looking/buying the
    non-D Calipers. Mark
     
  15. Chalo

    Chalo Guest

    A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > Mark wrote:
    > >
    > > What the hell good are they, if they hang, and drag while riding? Mark

    >
    > That's not my experience but you're entitled to your
    > opinion. I think that's just a sloppy setup.


    Single pivot calipers have always, always had chronic centering issues
    owing to varying lubrication at the points where the springs slide on
    the arms. Only those calipers whose return springs coil around the
    center bolt have been immune to the problem, and those have been the
    rare exception.

    They are also subject to decenter from tiny displacements in the
    actuating cable's housing, which is annoying though it can be
    addressed.

    To top it off, all the weaknesses of caliper brakes-- centering
    issues, stiffness issues, limited braking power, etc., are exaggerated
    in proportion to the brake's reach. For my purposes, that makes
    caliper brakes a useless curiosity akin to spoon brakes: ineffective
    but amusing in their way.

    Campagnolo's reintroduction of single-pivot calipers makes me wonder
    when they are apt to reintroduce plunger-type derailleurs, or cottered
    cranks.

    Chalo Colina
     
  16. Gareth Beale

    Gareth Beale Guest

    As I stated in my original post, the fact that they rock side to side does not
    bother me. The fact that they do _not_ stay centered does.

    I spoke with the workshop at Excel sports where I bought them and they gave me a
    few suggestions to try, most of which boil down to making sure that the bolt is
    tight enough, e.g. ensure the bolt is not bottoming out, and add an extra washer
    if needed. I've also tried adjusting the spring tension to no effect.

    It occurs to me that the problem might be that I have it too tight, which is
    allowing the caliper arms to rock, but perhaps binding them enough to hamper
    the return to center (except when the brake is applied). I was not able to
    ensure the exact setting upon installation as I do not currently
    have a torque wrench small enough to fit this space, or a hex socket
    to fit the wrench, but I was in Sears the other day and they have what I need.
    That will be my next step. In response to the jeers I will receive for not
    doing this in the first place, hands up everyone (especially those who posted replies)
    who always uses a torque wrench to install components on your bike. Except those who
    do it for a living and own all the necessary tools.

    An interesting series of responses to my post. One person experiencing the same
    problem and very unhappy, the rest all posts with variations on: "mine work, so
    yours must too". The one post that is along the lines of my next step was the
    suggestion to check the torque settings, though the poster did not indicate
    whether he thought the problem was over- or under-tightening. It was nice of Peter
    to at least assure me that the rocking of the caliper arms was normal. Nobody else
    mentioned it.

    Perhaps some were responding to Mark's post, but out of all the responses in the
    thread only Richards and (one of) Peter's addressed my question. In my experience,
    this is typical for Usenet. I think we can all do better, and I wish we would.

    Gareth


    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) writes:
    |> gfb-<< However, even tightened down, the calipers rock slightly from
    |> side to side. >><BR><BR>
    |>
    |> Normal. When centered with a 15mm-they will stay centered.
    |>
    |> Peter Chisholm
    |> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    |> 1833 Pearl St.
    |> Boulder, CO, 80302
    |> (303)440-3535
    |> http://www.vecchios.com
    |> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  17. Tom Paterson

    Tom Paterson Guest

    >From: [email protected] (Gareth Beale)

    >they gave me a
    >few suggestions to try, most of which boil down to making sure that the bolt
    >is
    >tight enough, e.g. ensure the bolt is not bottoming out, and add an extra
    >washer
    >if needed.


    Did you lubricate the spring where it fits into ("slides up and down in") the
    caliper boss?
     
  18. scott patton

    scott patton Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Gareth Beale <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Not really. It's near impossible to tighten down and keep the arms centred. That's
    >why there is a centre bolt with flats to fit a 15mm wrench, as I described. That is
    >how you are supposed to centre the arms. I try to avoid using a hammer on my bike
    >if I can help it.


    Funny, I don't have any problem on my bike... It's not as easy to adjust, but setup
    was not a problem.

    Scott
    --
    -*- Scott Patton
    -*- Colorado Springs, CO
    -*- http://www.FixedGearFever.com
    -*- Track Racing Web Services
     
  19. Gareth Beale

    Gareth Beale Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]ospam (Tom Paterson) writes:
    |> >From: [email protected] (Gareth Beale)
    |>
    |> >they gave me a
    |> >few suggestions to try, most of which boil down to making sure that the bolt
    |> >is
    |> >tight enough, e.g. ensure the bolt is not bottoming out, and add an extra
    |> >washer
    |> >if needed.
    |>
    |> Did you lubricate the spring where it fits into ("slides up and down in") the
    |> caliper boss?
    |>
    |>

    No need. These are brand new and there is lots of grease there.

    Thanks for the suggestion though.

    Gareth
     
  20. Tom Paterson

    Tom Paterson Guest

    >From: [email protected] (Gareth Beale)

    >|> Did you lubricate the spring where it fits into ("slides up and down in")
    >the
    >|> caliper boss?


    >No need. These are brand new and there is lots of grease there.
    >
    >Thanks for the suggestion though.


    Since bolt tightening, etc. isn't working, I'd pop the spring out of the boss
    and make sure the area was clean and that there was actually some grease in
    between the spring and the brake body, then wipe the rest of the dirt-catching
    slop off, after making the calipers pivot several times.

    Persisting because that simple cleaning/lubrication maneuver has always worked
    for me, where extra washers (even the Campy serrated!!!) and repeated
    overtightenings never did. I'm using two sets (lucky me) of Campy D's (Chorus,
    thank you) at present, working fine. --TP
     
Loading...
Loading...