2008 Ftp?



kopride said:
Having actually been a participant in a giant pissing contest in my youth, I believe it was at the end of a pub crawl, I can tell you that the FTP Thread is nothing like that contest, which involved filling liter bottles with ****, and then measuring total volume.
You obviously didn't drink enough... ('cause you remembered what happened)
... and where the heck do you get an untold number of liter bottles from at the end of a pub crawl?

Now, if you'd been drinking real pints not American mini-me pints then it may ahve been a different story. :D
 
kopride said:
I thought the whole purpose of determining FTP was to know with some certainty when you started entering "match burning" territory and when you were operating at or right below LT, or exercise intensity at which lactate begins to accumulate in a person's blood. If you are entering races that are only 20 minutes or less, it might not be helpful to know FTP for an hour. But, if you are racing for anything longer than 40 minutes, why wouldn't you want to know whether you are under or over threshold at any given time. I would agree with you that a person with a lower threshold, but better 20 minute power, may very well outperform a rider with a higher threshold and lower 20 minute power, in certain types of races. Ultimately, the guy that crosses the finish line first is the winner. But I could imagine that you could achieve a higher 20 minute power by spending a significant proportion of the time above LT, which might not help you in a 60 minute race where you spent too much time above LT at an unsustainable pace.

Having actually been a participant in a giant pissing contest in my youth, I believe it was at the end of a pub crawl, I can tell you that the FTP Thread is nothing like that contest, which involved filling liter bottles with ****, and then measuring total volume.

from your statement, you don't know what LT is.. no one doing Threshold intervals would do them at LT or lower than LT... what i think you mean is FTP not LT... LT is much lower than FTP...

i said if your thing is 40km TTs (1hr TTs) then determining FTP will be very helpful...

have you ever ridden a race? i'm talking about a mass start race i.e. not a TT? when is that last time in a race you did a 1hr uninterrupted effort or even 20min uninterrupted for that matter... doesn't happen that often... but again if your thing is 1hr solo efforts then by all means calculate you 1hr power...

one would choose a 20min test over 1hr test because of the relatively greater contribution or potential contribution of anaerobic capacity in the 20min number vs the 1hr number.. as YOU say "But I could imagine that you could achieve a higher 20 minute power by spending a significant proportion of the time above LT [i think you mean FTP]"... exactly! AnCap adaptation IS important for mass start racers... a 20min test gives you a much better indication of mix of the adaptations one would need to be successfull in road racing... if you are going to do a single test imo a 20min test is superior... and more convenient since most people actually do 20min intervals ALL the time.

FTP is NOT necessary or even desirable to determine what level to ride your intervals (except for 1hr intervals)... anyone with a power meter, after riding an interval of a particular duration about 2-3 times should know how hard they can ride that interval.. if you're too hard you can't finish the the interval or the set... if you're too slow you have too much left and you go a little harder the next time... it's not rocket science. if you use FTP plus some percentage of FTP based on some fictitious, average joe athlete you are not accounting for your particular strengths and weaknesses... you could end up for example doing you AnCap or VO2max intervals too high or too low as a result...

sure when you are starting out estimated FTP x some percentage might be a good a first best guess, but after a while you know how hard you can ride for a duration... using the percentage after that could actually be doing you a disservice.

FTP is not some wonderful, magical number... it just 1hr power...
 
doctorSpoc said:
FTP is not some wonderful, magical number... it just 1hr power...
There's nothing magical about any of the numbers - unless you're Lance and can churn out 495watts for 30 minutes after a 5 hour stage in the mountains.

For me I just wanted to find a way to be able to subjectively track progress - or lack thereof, as I spend a large percentage of my time on the trainer. From that and other measurements I can more accurately track what's going on.
 
Alex Simmons said:
Which is essentially what I was saying about attempting to get four high quality maximal efforts done for this. They are short but they take it out of you, hence cutting down the number of tests. As long as they are good honest maximal efforts, then two data points can be enough.
What I was kinda eluding too was the effort may have scrambled my braincells causing me miss something too obvious on the Monod spreadsheet.

Funnily enough there's not an ache, pain or even stiffness from yesterdays ride. I still have some greif from having a dozen 6 year olds jump on me in a bounce house but apart from that it's all good. I actually feel better than I've done in a long time....

... so, 5 to 6 minutes at ~330watts is tommorrow nights prime time training. If at 6 minutes I haven't gone 'pop' then I'll hang on and see how long it'll go. To be honest I actually have no idea what'll happen but if I last 20 minutes the PowerTap is going back to Saris's techsupport as it'll be deliving false hope. :D
 
swampy1970 said:
There's nothing magical about any of the numbers - unless you're Lance and can churn out 495watts for 30 minutes after a 5 hour stage in the mountains.

For me I just wanted to find a way to be able to subjectively track progress - or lack thereof, as I spend a large percentage of my time on the trainer. From that and other measurements I can more accurately track what's going on.

but unless you perform 1hr long intervals all the time why would anyone choose to use FTP as their primary metric to track progress... and if you are doing 1hr long "intervals" why are you doing that? that's WAY too long for an "interval"... i wouldn't even refer to it as an interval as it's so long it doesn't give you the advantage that interval training is supposed to give you any more... add 15min of recovery periods into your workout and the total magnitude of the business end of your training sessions will be of much more higher quality and more productive.. that's why we do interval training rather than just riding around at the same intensity for the whole ride in the 1st place..

if you do 20min intervals all the time and it's just as good as 1hr power as a metric for progress (i think even better in some ways) and certainly more convenient than 1hr power... why use one hr power as your metric?

and why would someone go to the trouble of taking their 20min power, plug that into an excel spreadsheet estimating 1hr power, just to use 1hr power as their primary metric... seems kind of nonsensical to me... unless you have a 40k TT coming up... why bother? just use your 20min power or 30min power or whatever you do the most...

any way you slice it, it just doesn't make any kind of practical sense for training or even for tracking progress.. only use that makes sense is for the pissing contest..

edit - i do agree with you that looking at a bunch of numbers is useful but just looking at FTP is not really that useful...
 
liversedge said:
FTP is vital for setting training zones, that's all.

And yes, NP and IF and TSS that flow from it are useful to tell you what you did and when to rest.

no it's not... using FTP to set your training zones in not vital... it's not even desirable... the values you get from doing this are meant only as a ball park figure base on some generic, average user... you should set your training zones based on what YOU can do for those durations not what generic, average joe, paint by numbers training guy sets for his values...
 
This was just the first of two relatively casual intervals, and in fact the so-called 20 min MMP contains an extra couple of minutes of light warm up, so I was surprised to find that I beat my best. The intervals are working! (Calculated on 0.93 * 20 min MMP).

KP....................275W.......49kg.......5.61W/kg 4th place finisher womens olympic MTB
Squint...............332W.......63.5 kg...5.22 W/kg
Markster............352W.......69kg......5.10 W/kg (69min TT @ 347W (5ºC)) (105min TT @ 330W)
BullGod...............340W (KK)69kg......4.9W/Kg (elite, Benelux)
Piotr..................267W.......55kg......4.85W/kg (M35+, Cat III, Utah)
PSUcycling..........322W.......67kg......4.80w/kg (26,cat 1,Tx)
MintID................370W.......77.5kg....4.78W/kg (Beginner Class)
rmur(Mar.08).......410W.......86kg......4.77 W/kg (M45-49, PT Pro, from long L4 intervals)
Midbunchlurker....290w........61.5kg....4.72W/Kg (35-39, Cape Town, SA)
PaulMD...............317w.......67.5kg....4.71w/kg (recreational rider, training for La Marmotte)
pledac................312W.......67.5kg....4.62W/kg (39, PT Pro, from 0.93*20MMP)
esammuli............302W.......66.4kg.....4.55 W/kg (22, Cat III, SoCal)
rmur(Feb.08).......395W.......87kg......4.54 W/kg (M45-49, PT Pro, from long L4 intervals)
doctorSpoc.........250W.......55kg......4.5W/kg (M1/MB Ontario)
iliveonnitro...........290W........67kg.....4.33W/kg (21, cat3, IL)
tehpr3chr............315W......73kg.......4.3W/Kg (Cat III, GA)
Tyson.................315W......73kg.......4.3W/Kg (Sillyoldtwit)
strader...............285W.......66.5kg....4.28W/kg (Cat V, Sport MTB)
bbrauer..............290W.......68kg.......4.26W/kg
waterrockets.......345W.......80.9kg....4.26W/kg (M35+ road, Austin (Cat III))
Hammertoe.........256W.......61.2kg....4.18W/kg (middle aged, well marbled, hill climber)
Ade Merckx.........300W (KK)72kg.......4.16W/Kg (UK 3rd cat)
tonyzackery........365W.......88kg.......4.15W/kg (Cat4, 1hr+ L4 climbs on trainer)
grahamspringett.....268W.....65kg.......4.12W/kg (Masters 2, looking forward to 32km mountain climb in stage race)
Miscreant............260W.......63.5kg....4.09W/kg (Cat 5,new to racing)
Sgrundy..............263W.......64.3kg......4.09W/kg (Cat 4, NYC, 20'MMP * 0.95)
Rob Powell............305W......74.8kg....4.08W/kg (Welsh 2nd Cat, 20.04 for 10m TT)
bigwillie013........290W.....72kg......4.03W/kg beginner in racing loosing some fitness and gaining weight
redface.gif
wrong way, eh?
bigbadwoulfe.......293W.......72.0kg....4.02W/kg (Over estimated my FTP. 320 down to this level. 3x20 @305 W used monod sheet)
ctgt...................270W.......70kg.......3.94W/kg (M2 Ontario, previously S4, mostly Citizen MTB)
Betulla ...............269W.......70kg......3.85W/kg (Cat V, Ohio, training for the 2008 Etape)
mikeyp123...........260W.......67.5kg.....3.85W/kg (Cat 5, SoCal, 32, racer noob, 230 -> 260 so far this season)
No1kung1............294W.......77kg.......3.82W/kg (Cat 3, NYC)
otb4evr...............375W.......99kg......3.79w/kg (Cat3, 40+, 40k @ 56:51 - 348 AP on TT bike)
Simone...............226W.......60,7kg... 3.72 W/kg (Simone@Italy, 30, rides for fun)
artemidorus.........322W.......86kg.......3.71 W/kg (commuter, rides for fun, "races" friends, 38)
ruleof72..............272W.......74kg.......3.67W/kg (almost 44, former bad crit racer, likes to climb)
Millzebub.............310W.......86kg......3.6W/kg (Cat 5, new racer, 36, oakland, ca)
catlike.................232W.......65kg......3.57W/kg (2nd year of training, M32)
kopride................283W.......79.5kg...3.55 W/kg (Weekend Warrior, Philly)
dkrenik................260W......78.9kg.....3.3W/kg (4erver4, M45+, Colorado)
RJBTrek...............243W.......85kg.......2.86W/kg (Cat 5, Chicago, 47, new to racing)
Fergie.................241W.......91kg.......2.64W/kg (37yrs, M1 NZ, fat rider, underweight coach, MAP 367W)
Swampy..............233W.......88.5Kg....2.63W/kg (Numpty)
Alex Simmons.......240W.......92kg.......2.61W/kg (MAP 355W, 10-mile TT 248W, SRM, M40+ track enduro, acquired LBK amputee in 2007)
Felt_Rider...........190W.........78kg......2.43W/kg (club rider)
 
doctorSpoc said:
no it's not... using FTP to set your training zones in not vital... it's not even desirable... the values you get from doing this are meant only as a ball park figure base on some generic, average user... you should set your training zones based on what YOU can do for those durations not what generic, average joe, paint by numbers training guy sets for his values...
ok then, explain how you set your training zones without using percentages of your MMP, FTP or CP.
 
liversedge said:
ok then, explain how you set your training zones without using percentages of your MMP, FTP or CP.

He's already said that he would set training zones based on what he can achieve for that duration. Make a lot of sense and in reality this is what tends to happen: for example if a given ride is set at say Z2 on the flat and Z4 on hills, those are pretty broad ranges. <numbers made up off top of head> If Z4 is 300-380w, then I come to a 15min climb I'll probably climb it at around 300, but a 2min climb I'll go up at 380. If I aimed for 340 on both then I'd die halfway up the first one, and be unstressed by the top of the second.

CP60 is a good metric because it's what TSS (and thus CTL, ATL, TSB...) are based on, so it's very useful in plotting fatigue and training load, and looking at the 'whole forest'. But you need to look at the individual trees as well as the whole forest. For me, at my fittest in May I was putting out 360w for a 20min TT, then NP=340w for an hour's crit - that's CP20=1.06CP60; by October (after 4months reduced training due to working away), I was NP=310w for a similar crit, but could do 345w for 20mins, that's 1.11CP60. If I was setting 20min levels based on FTP then I'd be about 20w less than I can actually do.
 
liversedge said:
ok then, explain how you set your training zones without using percentages of your MMP, FTP or CP.
You can develop a training system based on a wide range of arbitrary baselines. Ric Sterns for instance sets his training levels based on MAP not FTP. But you can use 20 minute MMP or 30 minute MMP or just about any reference point that reflects metabolic fitness. Andy has structured his system on FTP, a lot of us use it but there's nothing wrong with a system based on another reference point.

FWIW, I track FTP in part because it feeds the IF, TSS, CTL, and ATL algorithms as mentioned above and in part because I race several 40K TTs each season. But in terms of weekly training I pay a lot more attention to my 5, 10, 20, an 30 minute MMP. As DocSpoc points out those are easier to keep tabs on because you do them all the time and are more closely associated with the demands of general road racing than 60 minute MMP. How often do you climb an hour long hill in a road race? A lot of races have a 10 to 20 minute make or break climb.

In terms of setting training levels, those mid length intervals are pretty much self regulating. Try to do them too hard and you'll have to back off. When they start feeling too easy most competitive folks will bump up the intensity in hopes of higher AP for their efforts. You don't need a chart or calculator to figure out how to do 2x20s for instance, just try to hold the power relatively steady from start to finish and see what you can handle.

Good luck,
-Dave
 
Hi Dave,

I understand that. DoctorSpok's point was that using %age of FTP (or I assume any datapoint such as CP, MAP, OBLA etc) was not helpful and reflected the 'Average Joe'. I fail to see how you would set zones any other way, hence the question....
 
rob of the og said:
He's already said that he would set training zones based on what he can achieve for that duration.
My bad. I missed that. I wonder what arbitary duration is used for Tempo as opposed to say Endurance. 3hrs? 5hrs? 8hrs?
 
doctorSpoc said:
no it's not... using FTP to set your training zones in not vital... it's not even desirable... the values you get from doing this are meant only as a ball park figure base on some generic, average user... you should set your training zones based on what YOU can do for those durations not what generic, average joe, paint by numbers training guy sets for his values...
hi Ds. I have no problem with different points of view - even though I disagree with some of your points re FTP . as expressed. However I do have a problem with using this thread for 'discussion'. Please start a new one "The Perils of FTP" sounds like a good name :D .
 
rmur17 said:
hi Ds. I have no problem with different points of view - even though I disagree with some of your points re FTP . as expressed. However I do have a problem with using this thread for 'discussion'. Please start a new one "The Perils of FTP" sounds like a good name :D .

sorry.. for the hijack..
 
Alex Simmons said:
Well it's a close race, too early to call.

The early favourite is Swampy with all the hormones that flow from his status as a power virgin. With his magic weapon at his side, those trusty light sabre cranks, the force is strong with him.

Fergie has sprung to the lead but his record as a stayer over last couple of years has been questionable. Can he go the distance?

Alex has prior form but recent troublesome injuries might slow him down. He needs a fast track to perform. Secret indoor trainer methods guided by head trainer Stern, one can never discount a horse from the successful RST stables.

Sorry - it's Melbourne Cup Day here tomorrow :p
Swampy, with manboobs swaying in the wind, senses a tought effort ahead and puts his head down and makes a dash mid-race, golden cranks shining like Jason's golden fleece. Looking like a picture of perfect dysfunction, gut spilling over the top of his shorts whilst coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic donkey, he realises that he's not even at the half way point... did he start his final effort too early? Will the Aussie track riders use their pacing skills to perfection and catch the floundering Brit....

That was effing hard. Thank God this aint going to me a monthly affair now that I've blown the cobwebs out of the lungs (more about that in a minute) and got the 'get lots of power quick' period over and done with. Didn't feel great during the warm up and got a 'cramp' in my lower right ribcage at 5.05 - was trying for somewhere between 5 and 6 minutes and until then it was going to be 6. Some blood in the tissue during my post-ride "clearing of the lungs" although that was only present for about 10 minutes - whether this was due to the 'cramp' I couldn't say. I think I'll have a chat to the doc about that.

So. The scoop.

5 min - 326 watts. (just as hard as the 318 at the end of the 306watt ride)
20 min - 306 watts. (could have gone harder or longer - but not both)

CP - 3.5 Weight 87.3 and by some skullduggery ( and if FTP doesn't equal CP*weight then let me know, otherwise.. ) FTP = 305watts.


KP....................275W.......49kg.......5.61W/kg 4th place finisher womens olympic MTB
Squint...............332W.......63.5 kg...5.22 W/kg
Markster............352W.......69kg......5.10 W/kg (69min TT @ 347W (5ºC)) (105min TT @ 330W)
BullGod...............340W (KK)69kg......4.9W/Kg (elite, Benelux)
Piotr..................267W.......55kg......4.85W/kg (M35+, Cat III, Utah)
PSUcycling..........322W.......67kg......4.80w/kg (26,cat 1,Tx)
MintID................370W.......77.5kg....4.78W/kg (Beginner Class)
rmur(Mar.08).......410W.......86kg......4.77 W/kg (M45-49, PT Pro, from long L4 intervals)
Midbunchlurker....290w........61.5kg....4.72W/Kg (35-39, Cape Town, SA)
PaulMD...............317w.......67.5kg....4.71w/kg (recreational rider, training for La Marmotte)
pledac................312W.......67.5kg....4.62W/kg (39, PT Pro, from 0.93*20MMP)
esammuli............302W.......66.4kg.....4.55 W/kg (22, Cat III, SoCal)
rmur(Feb.08).......395W.......87kg.......4.54 W/kg (M45-49, PT Pro, from long L4 intervals)
doctorSpoc.........250W.......55kg.......4.5W/kg (M1/MB Ontario)
iliveonnitro...........290W........67kg.....4.33W/kg (21, cat3, IL)
tehpr3chr............315W......73kg.......4.3W/Kg (Cat III, GA)
Tyson.................315W......73kg.......4.3W/Kg (Sillyoldtwit)
strader...............285W.......66.5kg....4.28W/kg (Cat V, Sport MTB)
bbrauer..............290W.......68kg.......4.26W/kg
waterrockets.......345W.......80.9kg....4.26W/kg (M35+ road, Austin (Cat III))
Hammertoe.........256W.......61.2kg....4.18W/kg (middle aged, well marbled, hill climber)
Ade Merckx.........300W (KK)72kg.......4.16W/Kg (UK 3rd cat)
tonyzackery........365W.......88kg.......4.15W/kg (Cat4, 1hr+ L4 climbs on trainer)
grahamspringett.....268W.....65kg.......4.12W/kg (Masters 2, looking forward to 32km mountain climb in stage race)
Miscreant............260W.......63.5kg....4.09W/kg (Cat 5,new to racing)
Sgrundy..............263W.......64.3kg....4.09W/kg (Cat 4, NYC, 20'MMP * 0.95)
Rob Powell............305W......74.8kg....4.08W/kg (Welsh 2nd Cat, 20.04 for 10m TT)
bigwillie013...........290W.......72kg......4.03W/kg beginner in racing loosing some fitness and gaining weight wrong way, eh?
bigbadwoulfe.......293W.......72.0kg.....4.02W/kg (Over estimated my FTP. 320 down to this level. 3x20 @305 W used monod sheet)
ctgt...................270W.......70kg.......3.94W/kg (M2 Ontario, previously S4, mostly Citizen MTB)
Betulla ...............269W.......70kg.......3.85W/kg (Cat V, Ohio, training for the 2008 Etape)
mikeyp123...........260W.......67.5kg.....3.85W/kg (Cat 5, SoCal, 32, racer noob, 230 -> 260 so far this season)
No1kung1............294W.......77kg.......3.82W/kg (Cat 3, NYC)
otb4evr...............375W.......99kg.......3.79w/kg (Cat3, 40+, 40k @ 56:51 - 348 AP on TT bike)
Simone...............226W.......60,7kg.... 3.72 W/kg (Simone@Italy, 30, rides for fun)
artemidorus.........322W.......86kg.......3.71 W/kg (commuter, rides for fun, "races" friends, 38)
ruleof72..............272W.......74kg.......3.67W/kg (almost 44, former bad crit racer, likes to climb)
Millzebub.............310W.......86kg.......3.6W/kg (Cat 5, new racer, 36, oakland, ca)
catlike.................232W.......65kg......3.57W/kg (2nd year of training, M32)
kopride................283W.......79.5kg....3.55 W/kg (Weekend Warrior, Philly)
Swampy.............305W......87.3Kg...3.50W/kg (Kicked in the Monads)
dkrenik................260W......78.9kg.....3.3W/kg (4erver4, M45+, Colorado)
RJBTrek...............243W.......85kg.......2.86W/kg (Cat 5, Chicago, 47, new to racing)
Fergie.................241W.......91kg.......2.64W/kg (37yrs, M1 NZ, fat rider, underweight coach, MAP 367W)
Alex Simmons.......240W.......92kg.......2.61W/kg (MAP 355W, 10-mile TT 248W, SRM, M40+ track enduro, acquired LBK amputee in 2007)
Felt_Rider...........190W.........78kg......2.43W/kg (club rider)
 
Aussies?

That's the worst thing you can do a Kiwi is confuse them as an Aussie:mad:
 
fergie said:
Aussies?

That's the worst thing you can do a Kiwi is confuse them as an Aussie:mad:
Whoops.

:p

... oh, and thanks for the "oh, I hope you don't keep coughing blood up" and "good improvement"

Rolf Harris will be heading over to give you your honorary citizenship to Skippydom.
 
swampy1970 said:
Swampy.............305W......87.3Kg...3.50W/kg (Kicked in the Monads)
Holy Monads, nice work!

Although using 20-min/306W, 5-min/326W and 87.3kg I get a CP of 3.43 W/kg = 299W which I always round to nearest 5W, so say 300W.

The favourite has put in an early surge.... that sure is a big gap to close, even for a Kiwi:p
 
Alex Simmons said:
Holy Monads, nice work!

Although using 20-min/306W, 5-min/326W and 87.3kg I get a CP of 3.43 W/kg = 299W which I always round to nearest 5W, so say 300W.

The favourite has put in an early surge.... that sure is a big gap to close, even for a Kiwi:p
Thanks.

Hmmm.... The spreadsheet that I'm using (the one that you gave me the link too) says CP 3.50. I'm intregued as to what the difference may be.

What's kinda funny is that I already got one part of my goals for 2009. :D Maybe I should go see a man with a knife and a vaccum cleaner and take care of 20lbs and get most of the way down to the other goal.... ;)
 

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