2008 TDF Stage 6 : Aigurande - Super-Besse Sancy



Eldron

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Crankyfeet said:
If you don't want to see wheelsuckers win... go watch triathlon. The winner in RR is the guy who can go the furtherest/fastest on his tank of gas. You go faster wheelsucking as long as possible.

Yes and no. Ironman and the like is draft illegal but the Olympic distance is a wheel suckers wet dream (drafting is legal) - the game plan is: easy swim to finish in the bunch, wheelsuck in the bunch for 40km then smoke them in the run. It's the reason I'm a duathlete - 99% of races are draft illegal meaning the strongest man wins - no wheelsucking allowed.

That and I swim like a rock.
 

Scotttri

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TheDarkLord said:
If he wins the Tour, it won't be any worse than wheelsucker Contador winning the Giro.
Agree to that!! Well put in another context nine out of 10 stage wins by sprinters are due to wheel sucking!!

So if i'm getting this right, being consistently better than everyone else doesn't make you the best rider???

So Valentino Rossi isn't a great motorcycle rider because he's consistently better then the rest. Casey Stoner wasn't the best moto gp rider last year even though he was the most consistent!!

So the best rider in the tour doesn't necessarily win???

I knew Lance wasn't the best rider for those 7 years......thanx for showing me that:rolleyes:
 

Scotttri

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Eldron said:
Yes and no. Ironman and the like is draft illegal but the Olympic distance is a wheel suckers wet dream (drafting is legal) - the game plan is: easy swim to finish in the bunch, wheelsuck in the bunch for 40km then smoke them in the run. It's the reason I'm a duathlete - 99% of races are draft illegal meaning the strongest man wins - no wheelsucking allowed.

That and I swim like a rock.
True true, but once again there is exceptions, I'd guarantee 100% that Emma Snowsill would beat any other female triathlete in the world 95% of the time even if drafting wasn't alowed.

Same could almost be sadi for Javier Gomez....although mens raceing is a little closer
 

Eldron

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Scotttri said:
Agree to that!! Well put in another context nine out of 10 stage wins by sprinters are due to wheel sucking!!

So if i'm getting this right, being consistently better than everyone else doesn't make you the best rider???

So Valentino Rossi isn't a great motorcycle rider because he's consistently better then the rest. Casey Stoner wasn't the best moto gp rider last year even though he was the most consistent!!

So the best rider in the tour doesn't necessarily win???

I knew Lance wasn't the best rider for those 7 years......thanx for showing me that:rolleyes:

Ummm Rossi and Stoner are both Moto GP riders...

The analogy is a bit misplaced though - Rossi and Stoner are both "lead from the front" kinda guys. Evans leads from the back. Rossi (and Stoner to a lesser extent) both have hugely extrovert personalities. Can you see Evans loading up Armstrong and taking him for a victory lap like Rossi did with Nieto?

Don't get me wrong - I think Evans is a hugely talented rider - I just don't like his "wait and see" approach. Like DarkLord pointed out - do you want another Giro result where the winner doesn't take a single stage? Sure the best rider will have won but in the most boring manner possible.

Strategy over entertainment I guess.

Bring back Claudio Chiapucci I say.
 

Bro Deal

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Scotttri said:
So the best rider in the tour doesn't necessarily win???
The best doper wins.

best doper != best rider

The best doper may not even be able to get a top ten in a clean GT--if there were such a thing.
 

Scotttri

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Eldron said:
Ummm Rossi and Stoner are both Moto GP riders...

The analogy is a bit misplaced though - Rossi and Stoner are both "lead from the front" kinda guys. Evans leads from the back. Rossi (and Stoner to a lesser extent) both have hugely extrovert personalities. Can you see Evans loading up Armstrong and taking him for a victory lap like Rossi did with Nieto?

Don't get me wrong - I think Evans is a hugely talented rider - I just don't like his "wait and see" approach. Like DarkLord pointed out - do you want another Giro result where the winner doesn't take a single stage? Sure the best rider will have won but in the most boring manner possible.

Strategy over entertainment I guess.

Bring back Claudio Chiapucci I say.
I see your point!! Maybe i'm biased..........well yeah i'm definately biased but who ever wins deserves to win no matter how flamboyant they are
 

Scotttri

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Bro Deal said:
The best doper wins.

best doper != best rider

The best doper may not even be able to get a top ten in a clean GT--if there were such a thing.
It's been nice not reading about to many dopeing posts lately!!!!
 

TheDarkLord

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Scotttri said:
Agree to that!! Well put in another context nine out of 10 stage wins by sprinters are due to wheel sucking!!
Not a good analogy as that is the way sprints work. The sprinters are led out by teammates and then they fight it out for the victory.

Scotttri said:
So if i'm getting this right, being consistently better than everyone else doesn't make you the best rider???

So Valentino Rossi isn't a great motorcycle rider because he's consistently better then the rest. Casey Stoner wasn't the best moto gp rider last year even though he was the most consistent!!

So the best rider in the tour doesn't necessarily win???

I knew Lance wasn't the best rider for those 7 years......thanx for showing me that:rolleyes:
For the record, I would very much like an aggressive rider to win the race rather than someone who is constantly sucking wheels. I hope there are some nice duels like Chicken vs Contador of last year.
 

Eldron

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Scotttri said:
True true, but once again there is exceptions, I'd guarantee 100% that Emma Snowsill would beat any other female triathlete in the world 95% of the time even if drafting wasn't alowed.

Same could almost be sadi for Javier Gomez....although mens raceing is a little closer

Snowsill maybe but I'm not so sure about Gomez - he is an unbelievable runner - his whole "patented negative run split" thing is mind boggling. Did you see the recent event where he puked in the swim, crashed on the bike and still ran the pants off them? He should be Kenyan!
 

Scotttri

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TheDarkLord said:
Not a good analogy as that is the way sprints work. The sprinters are led out by teammates and then they fight it out for the victory.
.
The same could also be said for the way the GC riders ride to, there teams stay there and support them as long as they can protecting them from the wind, to keep there legs fresh
 

Scotttri

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Eldron said:
Snowsill maybe but I'm not so sure about Gomez - he is an unbelievable runner - his whole "patented negative run split" thing is mind boggling. Did you see the recent event where he puked in the swim, crashed on the bike and still ran the pants off them? He should be Kenyan!
He's so consistent this year. 4 from 4 I think, will be an interesting olympics, he's obviously the favourite. The womens well I think Venessa Fernandes is the favourite, but If Snowsill is fit I dont think Fernandes will have a chance, she'll be left battling for the minor placeings, with Densham, Tucker, Moffat and Tanner
 

TheDarkLord

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Scotttri said:
The same could also be said for the way the GC riders ride to, there teams stay there and support them as long as they can protecting them from the wind, to keep there legs fresh
Normally, teams take their riders up to the difficult part of the race, and then it is up to the contenders to fight it out. The crib is that Evans continues to suck wheels of his competitors instead of attacking and trying to gain time over his rivals. As I mentioned previously, Chicken vs Contador is a good example. Chicken would be led to the base of the final climbs by his teammates, but after that he would attack and distance himself from the others. If Evans would do that, there wouldn't be much complaints.
 

Scotttri

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TheDarkLord said:
Normally, teams take their riders up to the difficult part of the race, and then it is up to the contenders to fight it out. The crib is that Evans continues to suck wheels of his competitors instead of attacking and trying to gain time over his rivals. As I mentioned previously, Chicken vs Contador is a good example. Chicken would be led to the base of the final climbs by his teammates, but after that he would attack and distance himself from the others. If Evans would do that, there wouldn't be much complaints.
I know what your saying, I dont view him as a wheel sucker.

But feel like being a pain in the **** and argueing a loseing battle anyway!!
 

Eldron

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Scotttri said:
He's so consistent this year. 4 from 4 I think, will be an interesting olympics, he's obviously the favourite. The womens well I think Venessa Fernandes is the favourite, but If Snowsill is fit I dont think Fernandes will have a chance, she'll be left battling for the minor placeings, with Densham, Tucker, Moffat and Tanner

The smart money will be Gomez - the woman's race is wide open. Can't argue with this:
1 1 = Gomez, Javier ESP 5124,6
2 2 = Docherty, Bevan NZL 4420,8
3 3 = De Villiers, Hendrik RSA 3253,6 (woohoo!!!)
4 4 = Whitfield, Simon CAN 3163,1
5 5 = Don, Tim GBR 3128,2
6 6 = Kahlefelt, Brad AUS 2964,2
7 7 = Tichelaar, Paul CAN 2574,3
8 8 = Petzold, Maik GER 2551,7
9 9 = Hug, Reto SUI 2453,7
10 10 = Reed, Matthew USA 2408,0

1 1 = Moffat, Emma AUS 4216,4
2 2 = Fernandes, Vanessa POR 4123,8
3 3 = Warriner, Samantha NZL 3652,6
4 4 = Snowsill, Emma AUS 3136,8
5 5 = Tucker, Helen GBR 3072,2
6 6 = Abram, Felicity AUS 3065,1
7 7 = Densham, Erin AUS 2886,4
8 8 = Haskins, Sarah USA 2695,2
9 9 = Norden, Lisa SWE 2654,3
10 10 = Bennett Laura USA 2612,6

Did you know: Fernandes comes from a cycling background - her father won the Tour of Portugal in '84....
 

Scotttri

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Eldron said:
The smart money will be Gomez - the woman's race is wide open. Can't argue with this:
1 1 = Gomez, Javier ESP 5124,6
2 2 = Docherty, Bevan NZL 4420,8
3 3 = De Villiers, Hendrik RSA 3253,6 (woohoo!!!)
4 4 = Whitfield, Simon CAN 3163,1
5 5 = Don, Tim GBR 3128,2
6 6 = Kahlefelt, Brad AUS 2964,2
7 7 = Tichelaar, Paul CAN 2574,3
8 8 = Petzold, Maik GER 2551,7
9 9 = Hug, Reto SUI 2453,7
10 10 = Reed, Matthew USA 2408,0

1 1 = Moffat, Emma AUS 4216,4
2 2 = Fernandes, Vanessa POR 4123,8
3 3 = Warriner, Samantha NZL 3652,6
4 4 = Snowsill, Emma AUS 3136,8
5 5 = Tucker, Helen GBR 3072,2
6 6 = Abram, Felicity AUS 3065,1
7 7 = Densham, Erin AUS 2886,4
8 8 = Haskins, Sarah USA 2695,2
9 9 = Norden, Lisa SWE 2654,3
10 10 = Bennett Laura USA 2612,6

Did you know: Fernandes comes from a cycling background - her father won the Tour of Portugal in '84....
I didn't know that. I dont think the womens race will be open at all, you look at those figures then you look at the amount of races these people have raced in and of the two Snowsill and Fernandes are well in front, then you look at the races where the two raced against each other and with the exception of a few 2 of which snowsill was sick she won. She is far and a bove the best and a big call I know but destined to be the greatest Triathlete in history male or female, the only two things to elude her being the olympics and Hawaian Ironman, Olympics i'm quietly confident she will win, and Kona as she states is the next stage of her career, she will be better than Michellie Jones.
 

Scotttri

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Eldron said:
The smart money will be Gomez - the woman's race is wide open. Can't argue with this:
1 1 = Gomez, Javier ESP 5124,6
2 2 = Docherty, Bevan NZL 4420,8
3 3 = De Villiers, Hendrik RSA 3253,6 (woohoo!!!)
4 4 = Whitfield, Simon CAN 3163,1
5 5 = Don, Tim GBR 3128,2
6 6 = Kahlefelt, Brad AUS 2964,2
7 7 = Tichelaar, Paul CAN 2574,3
8 8 = Petzold, Maik GER 2551,7
9 9 = Hug, Reto SUI 2453,7
10 10 = Reed, Matthew USA 2408,0

1 1 = Moffat, Emma AUS 4216,4
2 2 = Fernandes, Vanessa POR 4123,8
3 3 = Warriner, Samantha NZL 3652,6
4 4 = Snowsill, Emma AUS 3136,8
5 5 = Tucker, Helen GBR 3072,2
6 6 = Abram, Felicity AUS 3065,1
7 7 = Densham, Erin AUS 2886,4
8 8 = Haskins, Sarah USA 2695,2
9 9 = Norden, Lisa SWE 2654,3
10 10 = Bennett Laura USA 2612,6

Did you know: Fernandes comes from a cycling background - her father won the Tour of Portugal in '84....
As for the mens, if it comes to the run Gomez is virtually unbeatable except for a freakish performance From Peter Robertson ( Dont think he's raceing ) Other wise Kalhefelt and maybe Docherty or Gemmel
 

Grater

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Bro Deal said:
Not quite. Lewis Hamilton wins sometimes. :D Evans is the David Coulthard of cycling: Consistent, nothing special, could win the championship if he was on the best team and he had a bad teammate and the stars aligned just right and it was a leap year.
haha