2008 Tour De France Stage 15 - Sunday, July 20: Embrun - Prato Nevoso, 183km



whiteboytrash

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classic1 said:
Lemonds ADR team in 1989 was worse IMO, but then again Lemond went in to the Tour with no expectations.


The British ANC team in 80's was even worse than that. They didn't even have a team car ! or I think they had one and one of the mechanics drove off with it and sold it mid-race. So the story goes.
 

b1_

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earth_dweller said:
well can't really say it was nice talking to you, but you just lost another one to try and impress with your love of Evans

Just telling it how I see it. Sorry, but I'm not one to mince words. You can tell me to shove off at any time; I don't claim to be an expert.

And it's the love of my countryman. I'm an Aussie; do you expect me to barrack for a Frenchman or something?
 

classic1

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serpico7 said:
Has there ever been a less aggressive winner in Tour history?
I get a bit tired of the 'Evans is a weak as **** wheelsucker' rhetoric. His style is not exciting but he has to race to his strengths. If he started jumping up the road everyone would start saying 'what a ********, his attacks are too slow'. As it is at the moment the bloke is at his absolute friggin limits. He showed that tonight. In his condition he should have lost minutes, not seconds. Plus he is a diesel, not an explosive type rider (as are Vandevelde and Menchov). Evans is trying to win a Tour de France, not please the gallery. He is still an ugly ******* though.:p
 

earth_dweller

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classic1 said:
I get a bit tired of the 'Evans is a weak as **** wheelsucker' rhetoric. His style is not exciting but he has to race to his strengths. If he started jumping up the road everyone would start saying 'what a ********, his attacks are too slow'. As it is at the moment the bloke is at his absolute friggin limits. He showed that tonight. In his condition he should have lost minutes, not seconds. Plus he is a diesel, not an explosive type rider (as are Vandevelde and Menchov). Evans is trying to win a Tour de France, not please the gallery. He is still an ugly ******* though.:p
yep, he did a great job today of minimizing the time gaps.I just think that he won't recover and will crack in the next big mountain stage especially as he really has no team assisting him when the road starts going up.

and his love for his stuff lions is a bit creepy
rolleyes.gif
 

Crankyfeet

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classic1 said:
I get a bit tired of the 'Evans is a weak as **** wheelsucker' rhetoric. His style is not exciting but he has to race to his strengths. If he started jumping up the road everyone would start saying 'what a ********, his attacks are too slow'. As it is at the moment the bloke is at his absolute friggin limits. He showed that tonight. In his condition he should have lost minutes, not seconds. Plus he is a diesel, not an explosive type rider (as are Vandevelde and Menchov). Evans is trying to win a Tour de France, not please the gallery. He is still an ugly ******* though.:p
+1. And he doesn't really have a lot of support ... say compared to Lance...as has been just mentioned. He does the best with what he has.

And as far as the regular citizens of Katherine, Northern Territories go... he's quite good looking...
biggrin.gif
 

fscyclist

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TheDarkLord said:
fsc, you seem to like Tours where there is someone who can dominate the race. I (and PP) like Tours that are relatively open since it makes it exciting. I get your point about a "true champion" though, but definitely don't miss the absence of someone like that in this Tour.
I didn't say that. I like watching champion(s) race. Even in the LA era, he dominated, but he had to compete against great riders such as Ullrich and Pantani. Indurain had to battle Zulle, Rominger, Riis etc... Lemond vs. Fignon and Delgado. Everyone I mentioned was a great rider. I just don't see anyone in this year's tour who strikes me as a great cyclist, with the exception of Valverde at the right moments. The rest can't hold a candle to the names I just mentioned. I do think Contador has the making of a great rider, but alas he isn't in this tour; the same with Basso. Wouldn't it be exciting if those two were also in this thing?
 

Crankyfeet

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fscyclist said:
I didn't say that. I like watching champion(s) race. Even in the LA era, he dominated, but he had to compete against great riders such as Ullrich and Pantani. Indurain had to battle Zulle, Rominger, Riis etc... Lemond vs. Fignon and Delgado. Everyone I mentioned was a great rider. I just don't see anyone in this year's tour who strikes me as a great cyclist, with the exception of Valverde at the right moments. The rest can't hold a candle to the names I just mentioned. I do think Contador has the making of a great rider, but alas he isn't in this tour; the same with Basso. Wouldn't it be exciting if those two were also in this thing?
Problem is... with all those other "greats"... doping wasn't really an issue in our judgment at the time. Even though they were probably doped to the gills. Nowadays if someone does something strong or heroic... or separates themselves from the field... we scream "Doper!!".
 

thunder

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classic1 said:
Deep bruising and abrasions can take a while to get over and effect your performance. Tthe worst of the bruising can take 48 hours to come out, then reduces over time. Ferrari even reckons bruising and abrasion effects VO2 max as the body tries to repair itself. The evil ******* has tested it. Sometimes you can fall, loose a little skin and it has zero effect, then another time you have a similar fall and it knocks the **** out of you. Its just luck. Personally I think the first rest day came just in time for Evans and I think this one has as well.
Ferrari said 10% power loss. For up to 4 days. Then assume there is a declining loss for the next few days.

If Evans suffered when the Saunier boys and Schleck went up the road, the peloton missed an opportunity to deliver a knock out blow.

Perhaps CSC are playing it wrong with Evans, Evans might be better for all the gunning on the flat.

The CSC boys might just be weakening their gun climbers. They might be best to slow and control the pace, til the bottom, then unleash the Triki like accleration at the bottom of Alpe d'Huez, and blow the race to smithereens.
 

thunder

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Crankyfeet said:
Fair enough.

With my limited knowledge.... I thought that last climb would suit Evans... not too long... not too steep. But he was struggling. Fortunate for him that Menchov slipped over and lost a 100m or so.
Evans says he prefers the Pyrenees, shorter, steeper.
 

Bro Deal

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fscyclist said:
I didn't say that. I like watching champion(s) race. Even in the LA era, he dominated, but he had to compete against great riders such as Ullrich and Pantani. Indurain had to battle Zulle, Rominger, Riis etc... Lemond vs. Fignon and Delgado. Everyone I mentioned was a great rider. I just don't see anyone in this year's tour who strikes me as a great cyclist, with the exception of Valverde at the right moments. The rest can't hold a candle to the names I just mentioned. I do think Contador has the making of a great rider, but alas he isn't in this tour; the same with Basso. Wouldn't it be exciting if those two were also in this thing?
FLandis is calling this year the Cat 3 Tour de France. :)

Evans' final TdF time trials are usually not as strong as his first ones. Evans may have a hard time winning unless he has a great day on Wednesday.
 

b1_

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earth_dweller said:
and his love for his stuff lions is a bit creepy

I'm sure his wife is struggling to hold her jealousy in check [grabs rolly and puts it where it belongs] :rolleyes:
 

Crankyfeet

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thunder said:
Ferrari said 10% power loss. For up to 4 days. Then assume there is a declining loss for the next few days.

If Evans suffered when the Saunier boys and Schleck went up the road, the peloton missed an opportunity to deliver a knock out blow.

Perhaps CSC are playing it wrong with Evans, Evans might be better for all the gunning on the flat.

The CSC boys might just be weakening their gun climbers. They might be best to slow and control the pace, til the bottom, then unleash the Triki like accleration at the bottom of Alpe d'Huez, and blow the race to smithereens.
Agreed... Especially if Evans is going to expend the least of the climbers (like Lance did) if the flat pace is high.... given his TT ability (I realise they are drafting in a peloton... but I still believe that he has an advantage)
 

thunder

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Crankyfeet said:
Agreed... Especially if Evans is going to expend the least of the climbers (like Lance did) if the flat pace is high.... given his TT ability (I realise they are drafting in a peloton... but I still believe that he has an advantage)
yep, I should have been less ambiguous, and said "relatively better".

But the gunning on the flat can hurt Evans team.

It also might prompt any jour sans. The intensity on the flat more likely to elicit the bonk or jour sans.

However, Evans seems stronger than his competitors in terms of consistency and robustness. I would slow the pace, and break it open on the bottom slopes. After all the bottom 5km on l'Alpe d'Huez is the steepest.

I think 2003, Triki Beltran may have won the Tour for Armstrong with his poor comprehension of English. Ullrich had his best year courtesy of the blood bags from Fuentes, but he was sick in the first week. When Triki thought his mtn leadout began, he just unleashed an enormous attack which put all the USPS riders in the red, Armstrong asking him to slow, but Ullrich was dropped.

CSC should use this tactic. Keep all their riders, slow the pace, and bring Cancellara, Gustov and Voigt to the bottom, and gun it, and then let Andy Schleck light up the bottom third after those guys pull for 500 metres each before blowing up.
 

thoughtforfood

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earth_dweller said:
and his love for his stuff lions is a bit creepy
rolleyes.gif
He also hates odd microphones. They showed and interview on VS today, and there was a reporter trying to get a microphone in on the side opposite most of the other reporters, and he smacked it away.

For the record, he is going to get beaten mercilessly the next two stages in my opinion. I also think Menchov, had he not fallen, would be in yellow now. He looks to be hard to beat. Cadel does have the fact that he is the better TT rider, and that could make up some time. However, he could also get blown apart on Wednesday.
 

b1_

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Bro Deal said:
FLandis is calling this year the Cat 3 Tour de France. :)

Mmm, and FLandis can STFU. He's a doping cheat more suited to motocycle racing the cycle racing ;)

Bro Deal said:
Evans' final TdF time trials are usually not as strong as his first ones. Evans may have a hard time winning unless he has a great day on Wednesday.

I guess we're gonna find out. I don't think Evans has put in his supreme effort yet.
 

earth_dweller

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thoughtforfood said:
He also hates odd microphones. They showed and interview on VS today, and there was a reporter trying to get a microphone in on the side opposite most of the other reporters, and he smacked it away.

For the record, he is going to get beaten mercilessly the next two stages in my opinion. I also think Menchov, had he not fallen, would be in yellow now. He looks to be hard to beat. Cadel does have the fact that he is the better TT rider, and that could make up some time. However, he could also get blown apart on Wednesday.
yeah I saw that microphone smack, what the heck was that about?
 

fscyclist

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Crankyfeet said:
Problem is... with all those other "greats"... doping wasn't really an issue in our judgment at the time. Even though they were probably doped to the gills. Nowadays if someone does something strong or heroic... or separates themselves from the field... we scream "Doper!!".
Maybe in your judgement. I go into the race assuming they all dope, so it doesn't really matter to me.
 

thoughtforfood

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thunder said:
yep, I should have been less ambiguous, and said "relatively better".

But the gunning on the flat can hurt Evans team.

It also might prompt any jour sans. The intensity on the flat more likely to elicit the bonk or jour sans.

However, Evans seems stronger than his competitors in terms of consistency and robustness. I would slow the pace, and break it open on the bottom slopes. After all the bottom 5km on l'Alpe d'Huez is the steepest.

I think 2003, Triki Beltran may have won the Tour for Armstrong with his poor comprehension of English. Ullrich had his best year courtesy of the blood bags from Fuentes, but he was sick in the first week. When Triki thought his mtn leadout began, he just unleashed an enormous attack which put all the USPS riders in the red, Armstrong asking him to slow, but Ullrich was dropped.

CSC should use this tactic. Keep all their riders, slow the pace, and bring Cancellara, Gustov and Voigt to the bottom, and gun it, and then let Andy Schleck light up the bottom third after those guys pull for 500 metres each before blowing up.
Only problem with that strategy is that if they try to slow it down, others will come to the fore considering the time gaps. CSC can only employ that strategy if everyone else agrees. I do think that is the best way to lose Cadel, because he has to ride a steady pace, there is just little explosiveness exhibited so far, and I don't think it is there. That being said, this spring he did show some, so maybe he is lying low? I think if everyone rides conservative, he has a shot. If not, and there really is no reason to with the standings the way they are, he is going to have a hard time.

I think you also (I actually) have to factor in the fact that EPO fueled romps are probably over for this tour, so conservative may rule the day. In that case, he still has a shot.
 

fscyclist

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Bro Deal said:
FLandis is calling this year the Cat 3 Tour de France. :)

Evans' final TdF time trials are usually not as strong as his first ones. Evans may have a hard time winning unless he has a great day on Wednesday.
That's funny, but Landis isn't one to talk given the "champions" he had to compete against. Evans may pull something besides a coconut out of his ass and do well Tues and Wed, but I doubt it. I really think the day to watch is Tuesday as CSC can probably get 2 or 3 riders ahead of Evans in a split over the final climb then haul ass to the line and put on another 2-3 minutes on the run in.

Menchov looks to be the one CSC has to pay more attention to.