2009 Campagnolo

[Peter@vecchios]

Well, received 11s shifters, ders, cogsets, chain, etc and began the eval on what works with what and..........it is all intercompatible. 11s levers and 10s ders and vice versa. Also received the zillion dollar chain tool and installed the 11s chain. No big deal, just a little mushrooming of the pin end after install. Nice to see the pin is a one piece unit, not the 2 piece of 10s, so ya can't drop half of it.

Action of the Chorus levers is nice and very similar to 2006 ERGO and Record/Chorus of 2007/8. Downshift to a lower gear/bigger cog is softer but still very positive, very similar in feel to shimano and sram. Upshift is much more positive feeling, almost the same as older levers.

Levers look very 'Mektronic'-esque(ray-gun) but are very comfy in the hand. Good thing cuz they look goofy. Also took the pulleys apart. Ceramic balls and bushings in Super Record. 2 ceramic bushings in Record, brass and steel bushings in Chorus. BIG 11t pulleys made of a hard rubber. Ceramics are gonna be expensive. Pulleys spin very easily.

All in all not as mysterious as it seemed. If ya want to upgrade to 11s, all you need is levers, cogset and chain.

Next thing is to slap a shimano 10s wheel into the 11s system to see how close the spacing is. I'm thinking that like Campag 10s->shimano 9s...Campag 11s->shimano 10s is gonna work pretty well together.

 

[Rochefan]

Well, received 11s shifters, ders, cogsets, chain, etc and began the eval on what works with what and..........it is all intercompatible. 11s levers and 10s ders and vice versa. Also received the zillion dollar chain tool and installed the 11s chain. No big deal, just a little mushrooming of the pin end after install. Nice to see the pin is a one piece unit, not the 2 piece of 10s, so ya can't drop half of it.

Action of the Chorus levers is nice and very similar to 2006 ERGO and Record/Chorus of 2007/8. Downshift to a lower gear/bigger cog is softer but still very positive, very similar in feel to shimano and sram. Upshift is much more positive feeling, almost the same as older levers.

Levers look very 'Mektronic'-esque(ray-gun) but are very comfy in the hand. Good thing cuz they look goofy. Also took the pulleys apart. Ceramic balls and bushings in Super Record. 2 ceramic bushings in Record, brass and steel bushings in Chorus. BIG 11t pulleys made of a hard rubber. Ceramics are gonna be expensive. Pulleys spin very easily.

All in all not as mysterious as it seemed. If ya want to upgrade to 11s, all you need is levers, cogset and chain.

Next thing is to slap a shimano 10s wheel into the 11s system to see how close the spacing is. I'm thinking that like Campag 10s->shimano 9s...Campag 11s->shimano 10s is gonna work pretty well together.

Thanks for that Peter,
Obviously no problem running the chain over the rd and the 10s chainring then. Is there any change in the width of the bb and the cranks for the chain line? Just for info really as I won't upgrade them.
Is it possible to fit the chain without the new tool, my LBS has the tool for fitting the 10s chain or should I buy that too?
Totally agree with you about their look, Shimano's new levers aren't pretty but think they look better than these mutated ones.

 

[Phill P]

How much cable to the record levers pull for shifting 10 gears? Thats the best way to see if the briftors will work with DA or SRAM. Left briftor should be fine, multiple trim on the front is the best design out there. Works with anything!

 

[Peter@vecchios]

Thanks for that Peter,
Obviously no problem running the chain over the rd and the 10s chainring then. Is there any change in the width of the bb and the cranks for the chain line? Just for info really as I won't upgrade them.
Is it possible to fit the chain without the new tool, my LBS has the tool for fitting the 10s chain or should I buy that too?
Totally agree with you about their look, Shimano's new levers aren't pretty but think they look better than these mutated ones.

So called '11s' rings have the big ring offset towards the small a little bit more than 10s. Crank arms are identical to 2006/7/8 models.

The only difference to the chain tool is the ability to mushroom the pin end(outboard) after installing it. If you can use a normal chain tool to do that....

 

[Peter@vecchios]

How much cable to the record levers pull for shifting 10 gears? Thats the best way to see if the briftors will work with DA or SRAM. Left briftor should be fine, multiple trim on the front is the best design out there. Works with anything!

Don't know. Eventually I will try these with a shimano 10s rear wheel to see if it works, like Campag 10s ERGO and RD and shimano 9s cogs. Since Campag 10s ERGO and Sram RD shifts shimano/sram 10s spacing, doubt that a Campag 11s shifters will shift anything now in production, except Campag 11s. Shift disc diameter in the lever determines how far the RD moves. Bigger one for 10s, I assume. Looking at the small parts diagram of 2009 levers, I'm guessing a Centaur/Veloce lever is convertible to 11s.

 

[Ainsie]

Looking at the small parts diagram of 2009 levers, I'm guessing a Centaur/Veloce lever is convertible to 11s.

Looking at the spare parts diagram of Campag 09 it appears that the range from Super Record to Veloce (Right shifter = EC-SR031, Left shifter = EC-SR032) share the same main body (and bearings?) and indeed 10 speed is convertable to 11 and vice versa. Based on these diagrames they are identical which does not match the Campag press machine.

Would appreciate (when you can) if you could advise the actual differences in the range in this area as this is where Campag seem to be trying to differentiate the groups (i.e. bearings V bushings). Does this realy make a difference or again down to the art of marketing V reality?

 

[Peter@vecchios]

Looking at the spare parts diagram of Campag 09 it appears that the range from Super Record to Veloce (Right shifter = EC-SR031, Left shifter = EC-SR032) share the same main body (and bearings?) and indeed 10 speed is convertable to 11 and vice versa. Based on these diagrames they are identical which does not match the Campag press machine.

Would appreciate (when you can) if you could advise the actual differences in the range in this area as this is where Campag seem to be trying to differentiate the groups (i.e. bearings V bushings). Does this realy make a difference or again down to the art of marketing V reality?

Pretty much. If you get Campagnolo 11s, they don't want you to sub a Veloce rear derailleur and crank. The thing I like is that the groups are essentially the same with small differences in materials, not basic design.

 

[Phill P]

Its very expensive for campy to re work their entire range in one year. Think of the tooling they spent for 09.

Shimano on the other hand only had to retool DA. If you want all the latest bells and whistles you have to go top shelf.
2010 they down grade materials and a cheaper crank for Ultegra, year after that 105. OK rumour has it DA will pick up a extra gear or two in the middle of that.

Campagnolo however has thrown out just about all its tooling for Record and Chorus, up specced the bearings and material for super record, new tools for centaur and veloce ergos (ok same tools as the other houses, but more tools to cover the volumes).

I would have bought out super record as the only 11 speed. Given record and chorus the new shifter ergos, keep everything else the same. Next year expand the super record features down through the range. Saves spending so much on tooling all in the same year, and forces buyers to go top shelf to get the latest features.

Maybe campy is feeling the pinch so badly they felt they had to make chorus and record more appealing (even if they down specced the materials to keep prices down).

 

[Peter@vecchios]

Its very expensive for campy to re work their entire range in one year. Think of the tooling they spent for 09.

Shimano on the other hand only had to retool DA. If you want all the latest bells and whistles you have to go top shelf.
2010 they down grade materials and a cheaper crank for Ultegra, year after that 105. OK rumour has it DA will pick up a extra gear or two in the middle of that.

Campagnolo however has thrown out just about all its tooling for Record and Chorus, up specced the bearings and material for super record, new tools for centaur and veloce ergos (ok same tools as the other houses, but more tools to cover the volumes).

I would have bought out super record as the only 11 speed. Given record and chorus the new shifter ergos, keep everything else the same. Next year expand the super record features down through the range. Saves spending so much on tooling all in the same year, and forces buyers to go top shelf to get the latest features.

Maybe campy is feeling the pinch so badly they felt they had to make chorus and record more appealing (even if they down specced the materials to keep prices down).

'Feeling the pinch so badly'???...Campag sales have increased every year since 1991 and they did in 2008 as well. I am SURE you will mention Sram but sram has put the hurts on shimano way more than Campagnolo. Campagnolo does almost NO OEM..where shimano does loads and sram has taken a huge piece outta that. But with Lehman Bros going TU, we'll see what sram does next.

As for Campag 're-emerging as a premium brand'..good for them. That's what they are.

The innard design of ERGO was an almost 2 decade old design, time to change. They learned from the pisspoor 2007/8 Centaur and below innards(xenon) and modified it to the entire line for 2009. Brought back the functionality of the older levers with a increased reliability but retaining the repairability. PLUS the levers are the most comfy out there. better than shimano and light years better than sram.

 

[Powerful Pete]

Peter, I just noticed your comment re: Lehman Brothers (RIP). What does that have to do with SRAM? Is that where their deep pockets for OEM discounts came from?

 

[alienator]

Peter, I just noticed your comment re: Lehman Brothers (RIP). What does that have to do with SRAM? Is that where their deep pockets for OEM discounts came from?

Lehman Brothers are a minority share holder in SRAM.

Campy is publicly traded in Italy, at least, but I couldn't find them listed on the Italian stock exchange. Does anyone know how to find 'em in the stock biz?

 

[Rochefan]

Sweet Jesus, what is up with the price of the chain tool. 300 dollars in US, 112 sterling in UK!!
Does anyone know where to get a cheap one. Can't imagine many bike shops having one for themselves

 

[Powerful Pete]

Lehman Brothers are a minority share holder in SRAM.

Campy is publicly traded in Italy, at least, but I couldn't find them listed on the Italian stock exchange. Does anyone know how to find 'em in the stock biz?

I was not aware that Campagnolo was publicly traded. If this is the case, then it would have to be in Milano. I will have to do some research and see what I can come up.

 

[Peter@vecchios]

Peter, I just noticed your comment re: Lehman Brothers (RIP). What does that have to do with SRAM? Is that where their deep pockets for OEM discounts came from?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2008/features/sram_lehmanbros08

I think the demise of Lehman Bros, regardless of what sram says, will have an impact on sram.

 

[Peter@vecchios]

Sweet Jesus, what is up with the price of the chain tool. 300 dollars in US, 112 sterling in UK!!
Does anyone know where to get a cheap one. Can't imagine many bike shops having one for themselves

We have one but if a place is selling for $300, they are fleecing ya.

At normal margin for us, we would sell it for about $250. OUTRAGEOUS..but not $300.

 

[catlike]

We have one but if a place is selling for $300, they are fleecing ya.

At normal margin for us, we would sell it for about $250. OUTRAGEOUS..but not $300.

I was considering move to campagnolo group (can't decide yet between Campa or Sram). The chain tool for 250$ is something new to me. Therefore my question: do i need exactly that funny priced chain tool for campagnolo chains? Are campy chains so special that they need special tool? What about those 10$ chain tools? They woud't work on campy chains?
Or is it just higer quality tool for profesional mechanics (or some who wants to have tool for 250$) and any other tool will do the job just fine?
Even if i have to buy chain tool for 100$, i would rather skip for other groupset where i can use ordinary chain tool for 10$.

 

[Powerful Pete]

You will find most people get by with their regular chain tool. You just have to be careful. Also, you may consider setting up your Campagnolo group with a third party chain (I have used and been very happy with KMC chains) and you will not even have to worry about having a chain tool at all.

 

[Peter@vecchios]

I was considering move to campagnolo group (can't decide yet between Campa or Sram). The chain tool for 250$ is something new to me. Therefore my question: do i need exactly that funny priced chain tool for campagnolo chains? Are campy chains so special that they need special tool? What about those 10$ chain tools? They woud't work on campy chains?
Or is it just higer quality tool for profesional mechanics (or some who wants to have tool for 250$) and any other tool will do the job just fine?
Even if i have to buy chain tool for 100$, i would rather skip for other groupset where i can use ordinary chain tool for 10$.

The Campagnolo tool is made to not only insert the 'pin' but to also mushroom the end of the pin after inserting. Can a more normal chaintool be cobbled and used? Sure but with $90 chains, I think I'll use the tool and not goon one up. At least until Wipperman or somebody makes a snap link.

Is it a 'consumer' tool? No. But neither is $600 facing tools.

 

[alienator]

The Campagnolo tool is made to not only insert the 'pin' but to also mushroom the end of the pin after inserting. Can a more normal chaintool be cobbled and used? Sure but with $90 chains, I think I'll use the tool and not goon one up. At least until Wipperman or somebody makes a snap link.

Is it a 'consumer' tool? No. But neither is $600 facing tools.

This is an area begging for an aftermarket solution. When I was racing motorcycles, I paid a lot less for a chain tool to break 520 chains and insert and rivet pins. Today the same tool is only $94.

 

[alienator]

Is it a 'consumer' tool? No. But neither is $600 facing tools.

Ice Toolz: pretty darned nice, and does a quality job, all for $175. Several bikes at this year's Interbike and years past have been prepped and ridden with BBs chased and faced with this tool.