2x20s how often

[Miscreant]

Hey, i was wondering i did 2x25s tuesday, then wednesday i did 2x25s in the morning and an hour easy spin at the night, and then 2x20s this morning. Is this too much ?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... Is this too much ?

Only if you're having trouble recovering and can't continue the efforts. In general no, 3 days of SST work is pretty typical though the intensity may not be at the top end of SST each day. Think about it, that's a total of 140 minutes of effort in level over 3 days. If you're just starting out or coming back from a lot of time off the bike or are pushing each workout to your maximum intensity then it might be too much but a lot of folks do 3 day blocks of SST and recover just fine.

You're in the best position to guage your recovery. Take a day or two off per week, listen to your body and don't hesitate to back off further when you need to. Tools like the Performance Manger in WKO+ can help you see when you're digging too deep a training hole but you can do a very good job just by tracking your fatigue.

Good work,
Dave

 

[Miscreant]

Thanks dave.


I'm doing fine recovering I just wasn't sure if it was generally considered too much too soon. Worrying about peaking too soon.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... Worrying about peaking too soon.

You can do an awful lot of SST without inducing a peak. This stuff is really aerobic base. About the only time SST will bring about a premature peak is if you stop doing it.... Don't ramp your workload too fast and don't always push the top end of your sustainable intensity(90% of FTP is still really good work but not nearly as brutal as shooting for best efforts every time you train) and you should be able to do this for months on end.

Now when you add in the high end stuff prior to race season, and back off to recover a bit from hard sessions or early racing - that's when early peaks become a concern.

-Dave

 

[Miscreant]

You can do an awful lot of SST without inducing a peak. This stuff is really aerobic base. About the only time SST will bring about a premature peak is if you stop doing it.... Don't ramp your workload too fast and don't always push the top end of your sustainable intensity(90% of FTP is still really good work but not nearly as brutal as shooting for best efforts every time you train) and you should be able to do this for months on end.

Now when you add in the high end stuff prior to race season, and back off to recover a bit from hard sessions or early racing - that's when early peaks become a concern.

-Dave

thanks that makes me feel better.

 

[Frigo's Luggage]

Listen to Dave. He knows his stuff.

If you can, I would actually do the 2x20s (or 3x20s or 1x60) in blocks of 3 consecutive days followed be two or three days rest.

 

[cooljazz]

... don't always push the top end of your sustainable intensity(90% of FTP is still really good work but not nearly as brutal as shooting for best efforts every time you train) and you should be able to do this for months on end.

Hmmm... I guess knowing when you're pushing a bit too much is probably more of an art than anything. I mean, one's FTP is going to rise over a period of time and, unless you're testing FTP on a regular basis, what you think is 90% of FTP may be actually, say, 85%. So is it the case that you just kind of get a feel for where you are in the sweet spot?

I like this advice of targetting 90% because as a triathlete I have to also worry about swim and run training. I have the tendency to want to push the top end of SS and while it's great for building confidence it can be extremely fatiguing at times. 90% seems "easy" enough that I could keep up with 5 bike workouts a week and still get in 60+ km a week running and 3 swims a week.

-richard

 

[cooljazz]

... don't always push the top end of your sustainable intensity(90% of FTP is still really good work but not nearly as brutal as shooting for best efforts every time you train) and you should be able to do this for months on end.

Hmmm... I guess knowing when you're pushing a bit too much is probably more of an art than anything. I mean, one's FTP is going to rise over a period of time and, unless you're testing FTP on a regular basis, what you think is 90% of FTP may be actually, say, 85%. So is it the case that you just kind of get a feel for where you are in the sweet spot?

I like this advice of targetting 90% because as a triathlete I have to also worry about swim and run training. I have the tendency to want to push the top end of SS and while it's great for building confidence it can be extremely fatiguing at times. 90% seems "easy" enough that I could keep up with 5 bike workouts a week and still get in 60+ km a week running and 3 swims a week.

-richard

 

[Miscreant]

This is my current scheduale.. i just started it this week but, im already almost done with it.


Monday: 2x20
Tuesday: 2x25
Wednesday: 2x25 + 60min cardio
Thursday: 2x20
Friday: 3x20
Saturday: 60min cardio
Sunday: Rest


I don't have a power meter, but i have a KK and im getting the power displayer thingermajig for christmas, so im only doing it by perceived effort. But i have a long history of running, doing interval workouts so i know how to pace myself pretty well..


Any thoughts?

 

[Ergoman]

I don't have a power meter, but i have a KK and im getting the power displayer thingermajig for christmas, so im only doing it by perceived effort. But i have a long history of running, doing interval workouts so i know how to pace myself pretty well..


Any thoughts?

Don't rely on the KK with it's power display to give accurate power readings. I've found that when it's cold, power at typical training loads can read as much as 10 to 15% higher than it will when warmed up. This is at a room temp of about 70 degrees F. That's way too much variation to be useful for training by power.

 

[root]

I do them on Tuesday and Saturday, and the rest of the days I do 60 min at upper L3 (89% of FTP) and 40 min in L2 (20 for warmup and 20 for cool down).

 

[Miscreant]

Don't rely on the KK with it's power display to give accurate power readings. I've found that when it's cold, power at typical training loads can read as much as 10 to 15% higher than it will when warmed up. This is at a room temp of about 70 degrees F. That's way too much variation to be useful for training by power.

yeah i've heard things about it, but its better than nothing at all cause i aint dropped alot of money into a power meter until i race for at least a season... any thoughts on the scheduale though?

 

[cooljazz]

... any thoughts on the scheduale though?

Probably too early to tell how well it's going to work for you. I think the thing to observe is how well you can absorb the training day after day, week after week. If you start to feel overworked then back off. If you're feeling good then maybe switch the 25's to 30's...

Personally, I'd break it up into 3 on, 1 off, 2 on 1 off, instead of 5 on, 2 off. I find also that what works for me is to do the shorter stuff on the days I'm running (e.g. cardio) and the longer intervals I do when it's the only workout for the day. The last thing is the location of the 3x20's. I think it was DaveW who suggested doing the higher intensity stuff first, on one of the threads awhile back, and it seemed like good advice to me. You do the higher intensity stuff first then the next days don't seem as bad. Mentally, it's less taxing.

...just my 2 cents for what it's worth. FYI: I'm fairly new at this too so take my advice with a grain of salt.

-richard

 

[AdamW]

Don't rely on the KK with it's power display to give accurate power readings. I've found that when it's cold, power at typical training loads can read as much as 10 to 15% higher than it will when warmed up. This is at a room temp of about 70 degrees F. That's way too much variation to be useful for training by power.

The "power at typical training loads can read as much as 10-15% higher than it will when warmed up" ... is that comparing actual/real power (e.g. SRM) to KK-computed power? or the KK-computed power to actual?

My thought is that if the fluid is colder then the actual resistance of the unit is higher, therefore pedaling is harder, and the KK-computed power based on speed would be lower. But my thoughts are simply theory and what I perceive from garage-based workouts that are conducted between 32F and 50F.

 

[wfrogge]

99% of the time the trainer will warm up properly during your warm up so its not an issue. Really depends on where the trainer is and the air temp reading.

 

[frenchyge]

99% of the time the trainer will warm up properly during your warm up so its not an issue. Really depends on where the trainer is and the air temp reading.

It's been a while since we discussed this, so I thought I'd throw it back out there. There is some good discussion of fluid trainer resistance v. temperature on this thread: http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-380967-15-4.html

And a measurement of the KK Road Machine's power curve v. temperature specifically, here:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/showpost.php?p=3160616&postcount=56

 

[Miscreant]

Considering the thing is only gonna cost me $20 and i've had this trainer forever, I don't really mind any slight fluctuations. Maybe some day i'll get a power tap, but not for a few years at least.

 

[AdamW]

It's been a while since we discussed this, so I thought I'd throw it back out there. There is some good discussion of fluid trainer resistance v. temperature on this thread: http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-380967-15-4.html

And a measurement of the KK Road Machine's power curve v. temperature specifically, here:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/showpost.php?p=3160616&postcount=56

Thanks Frenchyge! That was a great link and great graphs. Answered my questions.

 

[bbrauer]

This is my current scheduale.. i just started it this week but, im already almost done with it.


Monday: 2x20
Tuesday: 2x25
Wednesday: 2x25 + 60min cardio
Thursday: 2x20
Friday: 3x20
Saturday: 60min cardio
Sunday: Rest


I don't have a power meter, but i have a KK and im getting the power displayer thingermajig for christmas, so im only doing it by perceived effort. But i have a long history of running, doing interval workouts so i know how to pace myself pretty well..


Any thoughts?

My thoughts are that you're going to go bonkers and burn out before you reach any peak. Five straight days of 2 byes on the trainer? No. That's too much tedium. Part of successful long term training and maintaining motivation is staying in touch with the aspects of riding that are enjoyable and that you love.

Besides, the focus is too narrow. Yeah, the SSTs on the trainer are great this time of year, but can you ride outdoors? Mix it up. Include some longer rides in the tempo range. Perhaps do one long ride in zone 2 to give yourself a mental break. Where are your sprint workouts?

I did my first 2x20 SST session this Thursday and followed it with about 1:45 outside on my favorite route and tried to keep it in the tempo range. It was challenging...but I didn't feel totally worked afterwards. Off day on Fri, then tested my FTP on a long mountain climb today. Tomorrow something long and hardish, then I've earned another off day.

2x20 SSTs are a piece of the puzzle; they're not the whole shebang.

 

[Miscreant]

I would love to ride outside if i could, but i can't. I thought the idea was to focus on sprinting/vo2max closer towards the season. But yeah, i broke it up into three day sets.