'40% survive without a car'

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Gawnsoft, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. Gawnsoft

    Gawnsoft Guest

    This article was in yesterday's Edinburgh Herald & Post:
    ================
    Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to a new study.

    The latest Scottish Household Survey also shows that some 20% of households in Scotland have 2 or
    more cars. This figure rises to around 34% in accessible rural areas or the "commuter belt".

    However the study reveals that walking is a popular alternative to wheels.

    An average of 55% of adults said they had made a trip of more than a quarter of a mile by foot in
    the previous week. This figure rose to 69% in Edinburgh.

    ================

    The two things that struck me were:

    No mention of cycles in the means of avoiding a car.

    Setting 400m as the threshold for walking!

    But at least it's not purely a pro-motoring piece, which is itself a break-through for the press!

    Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
     
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  2. Dwb

    Dwb Guest

    "Gawnsoft" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > No mention of cycles in the means of avoiding a car.

    My partner and I don't have a car. We walk and use bicycles.

    However it's extremely difficult to carry certain things on a bicycle and there are times when a car
    really would be useful.

    We can't afford one at the moment, but when we can, we will get one. Stil use the bicycle though :)
     
  3. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    dwb wrote:

    > However it's extremely difficult to carry certain things on a bicycle a=
    nd
    > there are times when a car really would be useful.

    It depends on the cycle to quite an extent. My 8 Freight has enough=20 cargo capacity to pick up a
    new fridge, in its packing, from my local=20 Comet which is about 8km away from my house. I use it
    fairly regularly=20 to get 2 sacks of coal and a couple of bags of kindling sticks up a fair =

    size hill back to my house in one trip, and it takes a trolley full of=20 shopping with ease. There
    are still things where a car, or a van, would be better but for=20 local freight duties a cargo bike
    can carry a *lot* of stuff. The 8=20 cost me =A31150 plus a bit for a dynamo light setup. That's a
    lot for a =

    bike, but think of it in terms of annual tax and insurance costs plus=20 fuel and maintenance costs
    on a car and it soon pays for itself.

    > We can't afford one at the moment, but when we can, we will get one. St=
    il
    > use the bicycle though :)

    The main point of a car for me is getting long distances in a short=20 time, possibly with awkward
    cargo. 5m sea kayaks 100 miles in an=20 evening, for example, ain't going to happen with cycles. But
    for local=20 freight duties you can get a lot of stuff around with the right sort of=20 bike, and
    you can still hire a van for the odd occasions you need=20 serious cargo capacity without having to
    go through such a large capital =

    cost or a reasonably high recurring cost just own a car.

    There's a review of the 8 Freight at=20 http://www.velovision.co.uk/mag/issue9/8freight.pdf

    Of course it's also the case that for rather less money you can buy a=20 good cargo trailer and turn
    your existing bike into a far more capable=20 freight machine than it is in its usual configuration.

    Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics,
    Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  4. Ross

    Ross Guest

    "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    dwb wrote:

    There's a review of the 8 Freight at http://www.velovision.co.uk/mag/issue9/8freight.pdf

    Of course it's also the case that for rather less money you can buy a good cargo trailer and turn
    your existing bike into a far more capable freight machine than it is in its usual configuration.

    I could just imagine reaction from the kids if i said "right you lot hop in here is your transport
    to the football today " . Still looks like it could be pretty useful machine though .

    Ross
     
  5. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Ross wrote:
    >
    > I could just imagine reaction from the kids if i said "right you lot hop in here is your transport
    > to the football today "

    They could have the option of their own bicycles though!

    I've used the 8 to pick a friend up from the station, sort of. The Brompton went in the back in
    "Thunderbird 4" mode (it's even yellow!), when I got to the station it was deployed for my guest and
    her bag went in the back of the 8 and we both rode back to the house.

    Just back from a long weekend in the NL, and in Amsterdam I saw lots of kids being transported by
    cycle, either under their own power or someone else's, but there the locals are enlightened enough
    to regard even non-standard bikes as normal rather than the last resort of underfunded freaks...

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  6. Chillies

    Chillies Guest

    Gawnsoft wrote:
    > This article was in yesterday's Edinburgh Herald & Post:
    > ================
    > Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to a new study.
    >
    > The latest Scottish Household Survey
    <snip>

    "Transport across Scotland in 2001 and 2002: some Scottish Household survey results for part
    of Scotland"

    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00319.pdf 968kB

    Alex
     
  7. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:23:48 -0000 someone who may be "dwb"
    <[email protected]> wrote this:-

    >However it's extremely difficult to carry certain things on a bicycle and there are times when a
    >car really would be useful.

    As has been said, there are specialist cycles and trailers, such as can be seen at
    http://www.twoplustwo.uk.com/. I have heard of groups of people living near each other that club
    together to buy a load carrying bike and then share it.

    >We can't afford one at the moment, but when we can, we will get one. Stil use the bicycle though :)

    An alternative is to hire a motor van for the few occasions that bikes will not transport things.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
    keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
     
  8. Johnb

    Johnb Guest

    dwb wrote:
    >
    > "Gawnsoft" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > No mention of cycles in the means of avoiding a car.
    >
    > My partner and I don't have a car. We walk and use bicycles.

    Same here, and we have four children.

    > However it's extremely difficult to carry certain things on a bicycle

    _Very_ rarely. I use a vitelli trailer that can easily take 60kg and has carried items from chairs
    to a firkin of ale. With the hitch it is unhooked in a matter of seconds and is as much at home on
    teh back of the Brompton as on the Trice.

    > there are times when a car really would be useful.

    Perhaps, but in 17 years without one I am struggling to think of when. When we went 'car-free' we
    did the sums and said that if needed to we could always hire. So far the need has not arisen.

    Occasionally we use a 'man-and-van' service and sometimes taxis. Most large goods can be delivered.
    The biggest benefit is being away from the car-culture and the speed is essential mentality.

    > We can't afford one at the moment, but when we can, we will get one.

    Your choice. Enjoy the stress. I'll wave as I ride past ;-)

    John B
     
  9. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    JohnB wrote:
    > dwb wrote:

    >>there are times when a car really would be useful.

    > Perhaps, but in 17 years without one I am struggling to think of when.

    Easy: you need to get yourself, and quite possibly a small number of others, to a place that's
    inaccessible by bike in the time available and by public transport by virtue of the awkward loads
    you're carrying, the awkward times you want to get here, or the awkward public transport not running
    there at all.

    Plenty of hobbies exist where those are very real issues, and I indulge in several of them. For day
    to day life utility jobs I have no need of a car, but for access to recreation activities I wish to
    follow a car, or at least some sort of share in one, is pretty much vital.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  10. Chillies <[email protected]> wrote:
    ( Gawnsoft wrote:
    ) > This article was in yesterday's Edinburgh Herald & Post:
    ( > ================
    ) > Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to
    ( > a new study.
    ) >
    ( > The latest Scottish Household Survey
    ) <snip>
    (
    ) "Transport across Scotland in 2001 and 2002: some Scottish
    ( Household survey results for part of Scotland"
    )
    ( http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00319.pdf 968kB

    Surely not. That pdf doesn't contain the word "survive". Or was that a value judgement invented
    by the H&P?
     
  11. Arthur Clune

    Arthur Clune Guest

    dwb <[email protected]> wrote:

    : However it's extremely difficult to carry certain things on a bicycle and there are times when a
    : car really would be useful.

    Yup. I have to get my new bike box back from work to home. This would have been tricky, but just
    about possible on a BoB YaK, but I can't use that after the MTB I use to tow it got nicked. Sigh.

    Someone I don't fancy pulling a trailer on 60" fixed. What price knees...

    Arthur

    --
    Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org "Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
    - Paulina Borsook
     
  12. Johnb

    Johnb Guest

    Peter Clinch wrote:
    >
    > JohnB wrote:
    > > dwb wrote:
    >
    > >>there are times when a car really would be useful.
    >
    > > Perhaps, but in 17 years without one I am struggling to think of when.
    >
    > Easy: you need to get yourself, and quite possibly a small number of others, to a place that's
    > inaccessible by bike in the time available and by public transport by virtue of the awkward loads
    > you're carrying, the awkward times you want to get here, or the awkward public transport not
    > running there at all.

    The closest I can think of in the last 17 years when that applied was when I wanted to get all six
    of us with a tandem trike, a tandem and a burley trailer plus our camping equipment to north London
    to join up with the Europen Bike Express. We hired a minibus and driver , so no, it wasn't a problem
    and all the hassles were taken away from us. So, no we didn't need a car then.

    > Plenty of hobbies exist where those are very real issues,

    I'm sure there are if you choose them.

    and I indulge
    > in several of them. For day to day life utility jobs I have no need of a car, but for access to
    > recreation activities I wish to follow a car, or at least some sort of share in one, is pretty
    > much vital.

    Your choice.

    John B
     
  13. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    JohnB wrote:

    > Your choice.

    Indeed, though what particularly appeals to me for my hobbies isn't really a choice, just whether I
    choose to follow what particularly appeals or something that requires less hardware to partake.

    The main difference between car and bike for me compared to many people is the bike is usually my
    default whenever it will do what I want. I think that's highly untypical in the UK.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  14. On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:19:58 +0000, Peter Clinch wrote:

    > JohnB wrote:
    >
    >> Your choice.
    >
    > Indeed, though what particularly appeals to me for my hobbies isn't really a choice, just whether
    > I choose to follow what particularly appeals or something that requires less hardware to partake.
    >
    > The main difference between car and bike for me compared to many people is the bike is usually my
    > default whenever it will do what I want. I think that's highly untypical in the UK.
    >
    > Pete.

    I think your approach is laudable and I agree that it's probably not typical. I'm still not sure why
    you own a car, though. Isn't occasional hire more economic (and more interesting)? I'm sure you've
    done the maths. How did you come to conclude that ownership was best?
    --
    Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He has Van Gogh's ear for music." - Billy Wilder
    www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk
     
  15. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Michael MacClancy wrote:

    > I'm still not sure why you own a car, though.

    I don't! I am on the insurance of Roos's though, so we can share the driving.

    But beyond that the main problem with hire is it requires a degree of planning. One can't get in
    from a day's work in summer, declare it's a bonny day with an East wind that means surf will be up
    at Carnoustie or St. Andrews, hire a car with roofbars at 10 minutes notice, stick the playboats on
    and go surfing for the evening. And so on.

    It's not just a question of economics either. Though I'm not startlingly well paid I don't have any
    dependants or a crushing mortgage, so I can choose to have a car if I want. Even when I have had one
    I've used my bike(s) for far more trips, even back when I just had the old tourer, because it's just
    *nicer* for me as well as doing me good and the environment less harm.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  16. Abg

    Abg Guest

    "Gawnsoft" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:[email protected]...
    > This article was in yesterday's Edinburgh Herald & Post:
    > ================
    > Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to a new study.
    >
    > The latest Scottish Household Survey also shows that some 20% of households in Scotland have 2 or
    > more cars. This figure rises to around 34% in accessible rural areas or the "commuter belt".
    >

    If you live in Scotland and want to find out what your own area is like, then

    http://www.scrol.gov.uk/scrol/analyser/analyser?actionName=choose-topic-and-table

    is a good place to find out.

    e.g. http://tinyurl.com/2nune

    In the 2001 census for example 750,422 households out of the 2,192,246 households in Scotland have
    no car of van (i.e. 34%).

    Edinburgh isn't the council area with the highest proportion of no-car households.

    West Dumbartonshire = 43% Dundee City = 45.5% Glasgow = 56%
     
  17. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Gawnsoft posted ...

    > Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to a new study.

    Good for them.

    > The two things that struck me were:
    >
    > No mention of cycles in the means of avoiding a car.
    >
    > Setting 400m as the threshold for walking!
    >
    > But at least it's not purely a pro-motoring piece, which is itself a break-through for the press!

    Personally, I love cars as well as bikes .. ;)

    --
    Paul
     
  18. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:18:34 +0000, Gawnsoft
    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    <[email protected]>:

    >This article was in yesterday's Edinburgh Herald & Post:
    >================
    >Around 40% of people in Edinburgh survive without a car, according to a new study.

    Does the editor have an email address? I would like to email a letter along the lines of "not al of
    them will be surviving without a car, many of them will be actively enjoying life." My grandparents
    never owned a car, because living in a city (in their case London) made it an unnecessary
    extravagance.

    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  19. James Annan

    James Annan Guest

    Peter Clinch wrote:

    > Michael MacClancy wrote:
    >
    >> I'm still not sure why you own a car, though.
    >

    >
    > It's not just a question of economics either. Though I'm not startlingly well paid I don't have
    > any dependants or a crushing mortgage, so I can choose to have a car if I want.

    I'm in a similar position (or at least I was, in the UK). Absolutely no _need_ for a car, but my
    chosen hobby (mountain biking, including competitions starting at 9am on a sunday in the middle of
    the countryside) would be very impractical without one. At least this meant that I could happily use
    the cheapest crummiest car I could find, and it didn't matter that it spent the odd week in a garage
    getting fixed. It cost less than 10p per passenger-mile overall (and that's with only 2 of us in the
    car!). It was even slighlty subsidised by the profit from occasional business mileage.

    James
     
  20. Gawnsoft

    Gawnsoft Guest

    Oh, I suppose I should have said - me and family are in the 40%.

    I walk, cycle and bus, partner walks and busses. Toddler walks and busses, with the occasional
    leisure trip in a seat on the back of my bike.

    Weekly/fortnightly food shopping arrives at our house in the supermarket's van when I do it, or in a
    taxi with my partner when she does it.

    Mind you, we have hired cars on about 8 occasions in the past three years.

    Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
     
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