40k best time

[frenchyge]

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath for a detailed response either, despite the persistence of the request. More importantly, do we really expect there to be some magical nuggets in a training program which allows one to ride for 51 minutes in the TT position at 268w? (albeit at altitude)

Altitude + windless conditions + an "aerodynamically gifted" rider + mucho time spent refining one's aero position via wind tunnel and field testing = not as much power required to go fast as many would think.

My take on Andy's comment above was that he attributed more to his aero characteristics and the race conditions than his training program (possibly excepting the use of his oxygen tent for altitude acclimation) this year. That excellent run was a product of racing skill rather than training.

 

[DancenMacabre]

i'm with the french gent on this one re: Andrew Coggan's training - it isn't some big secret.

i'll take a swig here at what i would do

1 - get your FTP as high as possible using sound KISS training (SST/L4/L5 work)
2 - use your PM to dial in & optimize your CDA
3 - spend plenty of time training in the position you just figured out in step 2
4 - use your PMC wisely to track fitness/freshness/work load, train hard, be consistent, rinse & repeat
5 - if applicable & racing at higher altitude than home, try to acclimate in advance.
6 - if on a non-flat course then study it & plot it your pacing strategy (harder on hills/climbs, easier on downhills, etc)

sorry if this is some crude oversimplification but it doesnt seem complex. maybe the good Dr. Coggan will correct me & the rest of us can get his feedback but the above is what i think anyhow.

i've been thinking of some newbie commandments & one of the most obvious is:

there are no shortcuts, magic formulas, alchemy, enchantments, or voodoo that will suddenly make you fitter/faster than everyone else (save maybe EPO but lets not go there........) it takes time, effort, consistency, and smarts to progress. do those things and wait - the resulst will come in due time.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...how about a tip for all us amatures. ....why dont you let us all know how you trained in the weeks leading up to your 51:xx tt? ...

So you want to know the blow by blow details of how to prep for an hour at 268 watts?

I'm sure many of the regulars and lurkers here can answer that one for you as there's nothing particularly special about an experienced adult male racer holding 268 watts for an hour but I highly doubt it involved a lot of 1 minute intervals.

It makes a lot more sense to ask about how he got his CdA down near 0.2, but he's posted a fair amount on that subject over the years including his great info on neanderthal positioning: Wattage | Google Groups

-Dave

 

[fergie]

1 - get your FTP as high as possible using sound KISS training (SST/L4/L5 work)
2 - use your PM to dial in & optimize your CDA
3 - spend plenty of time training in the position you just figured out in step 2
4 - use your PMC wisely to track fitness/freshness/work load, train hard, be consistent, rinse & repeat
5 - if applicable & racing at higher altitude than home, try to acclimate in advance.
6 - if on a non-flat course then study it & plot it your pacing strategy (harder on hills/climbs, easier on downhills, etc)

sorry if this is some crude oversimplification but it doesnt seem complex

May be talking myself out of some business but yes, that is pretty much it. Biggest problem I see is people trying to overcomplicate it. But then most of those people are either looking for the "secret" or are selling the "secret". Great post.

 

[DancenMacabre]

May be talking myself out of some business but yes, that is pretty much it. Biggest problem I see is people trying to overcomplicate it. But then most of those people are either looking for the "secret" or are selling the "secret". Great post.

thanks fergie

sadly i gotta agree about the search or sale of the/a secret. true of cycling but also plenty of other things! it is hard to do the work thats necessary for real improvement if you spend too much time doubting and/or looking for shortcuts.

 

[Bike4Him]

One disclaimer is that, if crosswinds are relatively strong and significantly off a riders direction of travel, a slower rider will experience a higher yaw angle than a slower rider. If this yaw angle is high enough to cause wheels, aero frame tubes, etc to stall, that equipment no longer provides an aero benefit.

Most aero gear works by keeping airflow attached (as opposed to punching a smaller hole through the air). High yaw angles (angle of attack) will stall the aero shape just like a high yaw angle will stall a wing/rotor.

Are aero wheels slower than non-aero in a crosswind? I have 303's and felt like a windsurfer when I rode in a "side on" breeze

 

[fergie]

sadly i gotta agree about the search or sale of the/a secret. true of cycling but also plenty of other things! it is hard to do the work thats necessary for real improvement if you spend too much time doubting and/or looking for shortcuts.

In the unarguable truths thread I mention deliberate practice and suspect that despite Andy's access to testing, wind tunnels, aero equipment, an incredible knowledge of physiology and biomechanics the main factor was the dude has done a lot of time trials over the years and you can't help but get good! Either that or he has been secretly doing weight training on the sly

 

[swampy1970]

the main factor was the dude has done a lot of time trials over the years and you can't help but get good! Either that or he has been secretly doing weight training on the sly

Coming from a nation of timetrialists, I can vouch for the fact that riding lots of time trials doesn't really make you good at them just because you ride them lots...

... therefore, by your arguement, Andy does weights.

Batting 0-2. Again...

Shocker.

 

[fergie]

Coming from a nation of timetrialists, I can vouch for the fact that riding lots of time trials doesn't really make you good at them just because you ride them lots...

... therefore, by your arguement, Andy does weights.

Batting 0-2. Again...

Shocker.

Is that the best you have? Lame.

 

[leanman]

we are still waiting!!!!!
you know what i really liked about the bodybuilders of the late 60's early 70's? they trained together. these guys the competed against each other were a very tight group of athletes..the best handful in the world trained together, pushing each other to the failure point. talking training, supplements, diet, exercises, giving tips to each other.
back then arnold was spotting ed corney while doing squats. pushing a guy he would be competing against..dave draper and frank zane were pushing each other to the brink doing pullups. then they competed against each other at the mr. world or mr universe contests.
then back together in the gym training for the mr olympia contest...
nice when athletes give a pointer or helping hand.

 

[frenchyge]

we are still waiting!!!!!

...nice when athletes give a pointer or helping hand.

That's pretty obnoxious. You posted a question on New Year's Day and in 2 days you've complained twice now about not getting a response yet from a particular poster over a holiday weekend.

Now, with your 45 posts here you're going to wax poetic about the good old days when athletes gave pointers to each other? Why don't you search back through Dr. Coggan's 2739 posts here (and probably more than that between the Wattage Google group and Slowtwitch forums) and see if he hasn't thrown out a bone or two over the years before getting up on your high horse?

I'm not his spokesperson, but if you'd been around a while, you might know that Dr. Coggan is resistant to prescribing training despite numerous requests from people seeking his opinions (even entire threads aimed at calling him out on what he does for fitness, as linked above) because he is a scientist and doesn't consider himself to be a coach. There are a couple posts in that other thread garnered over the years from rare glimpses into his personal training that might serve to satisfy your curiosity while you're waiting. In my experience here, I'd say you're unlikely to badger him into posting what you're looking for, so I'd suggest trying another approach.

 

[bobdejonge]

Thanks for the links to the US records, and recent results -- very good stuff.
Geez, Andy Coggan is an old guy like me! I've got no excuse! I've still got hope!
Alright! perfect motivation for winter training -- I may just try a TT in the high desert or something during a vacation this summer, just to try it out. I need to witness that altitude effect first-hand. But, my equipment is no longer legal (Lotus, funny bikes) -- I'll just go after my PR.

 

[gman0482]

That's pretty obnoxious. You posted a question on New Year's Day and in 2 days you've complained twice now about not getting a response yet from a particular poster over a holiday weekend.

+++1 on that one with Frenchy. I've been posting a ton on here myself and I'm as new as they come, but you gotta have tons of respect to all of the guru's on this forum.

Remember Leanman, none of these folks need to answer anything and go out of their way to help us out, but they do it anyways. Please have some patience and courtesy...

 

[leanman]

hey frenchyge
it was a frickin joke pal. but out of it. you his bodyguard??
dont be so frickin uptight. i know he wrote 2xxx posts. i read them, appreciate them and enjoy his knowledge. mellow out a bit..
re: the holiday weeked, he did post a few times on new years eve, and a few times on new years day..
chill!!
dont take everything so damn serious. thats bad for your insides. laugh a bit and play along. your comment should have been." come on andy, how bout a post from you"
not ripping me when i'm making a joke.

 

[frenchyge]

It's not him I'm trying to protect, genius, it's the rest of us who benefit from the time he spends dispensing free information and insight here.

He hasn't posted here since you asked for his training program. If you get an answer, great. If not, now you'll know why and can let it go.