50 Conditions That Mimic "ADHD"



"Jim Not-From-Here" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "toto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:38:09 GMT, "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >Maybe things have changes but I recall the teachers lounge never being
> > >empty. You do make a good point with the inflexibility of the schedule
> but I
> > >think in the scheme of things that is a minor issue.
> >
> > You come and teach and then tell us that.
> >
> > It is obvious you have never been in a classroom.
> >
>
> In most schools, the lounge is either part of or adjacent to the workroom
> where teachers get copies made, laminate materials, etc. Naturally it is
> full. It is also the only place most teachers can go during the day where
> they are not constantly besieged by students.
>
In addition, in a crowded building, classrooms are often shared. If this is
the case, the teacher doesn't have anywhere to do their planning/prep but in
the lounge/workroom. Last year, we had two music teachers at my school, but
only one classroom. We arranged the schedule as much as possible so that I
was teaching in the band room when she had the music room, but I still ended
up with the choice of doing my preps either in the band room or the
lounge-and the lounge at least had a computer which I could use.


> Jim Wayne
>
>
 
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:08:37 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
wrote:


>In my contract it states that I am being paid for 183 days. No holidays
>factored in. Just 183 days. We jsut finished contract negotiations, so it
>is very fresh in my mind!

Of course. Is there any state in the country where labor day,
christmas, thanksgiving, etc. are school days? Unless they are
potentially workable days, the whole "183 contracted days" line is
more than just a little bit misleading.

>
>
>>
>> >
>> >It is irrelevant how I distribute my income. Do you get paid
>> >monthly? Does that mean you are paid for weekends too?
>>
>> I'm salaried. Yet if there is a holiday during the week, my check for
>> that week is 4/5ths of my base. That's what *I* call not getting paid
>> for holidays.
>
>So you, also, are only paid for the days you work. Your paycheck is just
>issued differently.

No it's not. If you take my yearly contracted amount--it's based on
the assumption of 40 hrs a week every week--with 4 weeks off that I
don't get paid for. If you take the pay that I collect for that 48
weeks and add it up, it's less than the contracted amount--the
difference being the holidays that I didn't work

>
>Do you really have no paid holidays at all? What type of job do you have?

I'm a doctor. And I'll tell you--I put fewer hours in the day when I
was teaching. Not that I'm anti teacher but this whole paid/unpaid
holiday **** is such a piece of ******** argument. Your contracted
number of days factors in days when you *can't* work. It doesn't make
any sense at all to say "I'm contracted for 183 days and that's all
I'm paid for" when, mixed in those 183 days are days where you are not
allowed to work.... Your contracted salary covers those days as
well--or it should.

====================================================
I've read that I flew up the hills and mountains of
France. But you don't fly up a hill. You struggle
slowly and painfully up a hill, and maybe, if you work
very hard, you get to the top ahead of everybody else.

Lance Armstrong
Cyclist and cancer survivor

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
 
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:26:39 -0400, "Jim Not-From-Here"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> If you are like most teachers you have your income from those 183 days
>> dispursed over 9-10 months--vacations included. Functionally, I don't
>> see much of a distinction between that set up and calling it a paid
>> holiday. Yes, I've been a teacher and come from a teaching family.
>>
>Not exactly. An employer who holds an hourly worker's salary beyond a
>"reasonable" period (defined in law) may be obliged to pay interest on the
>pay withheld.

When I was a teacher, I was salaried not hourly

> In NC, a teacher can choose to be paid over 12 months, with
>the state withholding 20 percent of their monthly pay (teachers in NC are
>paid for 200 working days over a 10 month period), but the state keeps the
>interest.
>
>In NC, we are given 5 paid holidays: New Year's, Memorial Day, Independence
>Day (most teachers are NOT paid for this, as our pay period doesn't cover
>July), Thanksgiving, and Christmas.

I'm not arguing that teachers are over paid just commenting on the
level of meaningless debate. If your contracted period includes
mandated holidays and you are working in a salaried position, is
"paid" vs "unpaid" really a distinction without a difference?

====================================================
I've read that I flew up the hills and mountains of
France. But you don't fly up a hill. You struggle
slowly and painfully up a hill, and maybe, if you work
very hard, you get to the top ahead of everybody else.

Lance Armstrong
Cyclist and cancer survivor

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
 
"Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:08:37 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
> >In my contract it states that I am being paid for 183 days. No holidays
> >factored in. Just 183 days. We jsut finished contract negotiations, so
it
> >is very fresh in my mind!
>
> Of course. Is there any state in the country where labor day,
> christmas, thanksgiving, etc. are school days? Unless they are
> potentially workable days, the whole "183 contracted days" line is
> more than just a little bit misleading.

In what way? I am paid for 183 days. That's it.


> >> >It is irrelevant how I distribute my income. Do you get paid
> >> >monthly? Does that mean you are paid for weekends too?
> >>
> >> I'm salaried. Yet if there is a holiday during the week, my check for
> >> that week is 4/5ths of my base. That's what *I* call not getting paid
> >> for holidays.
> >
> >So you, also, are only paid for the days you work. Your paycheck is just
> >issued differently.
>
> No it's not. If you take my yearly contracted amount--it's based on
> the assumption of 40 hrs a week every week--with 4 weeks off that I
> don't get paid for. If you take the pay that I collect for that 48
> weeks and add it up, it's less than the contracted amount--the
> difference being the holidays that I didn't work

But in our district our annual salary is figured for 183 days. Those are
the days we are paid for. If I use up my sick days and miss a day, 1/183 of
my annual pay is deducted. Not 1/190 because there are 7 paid holidays
factored in.

>
> >
> >Do you really have no paid holidays at all? What type of job do you
have?
>
> I'm a doctor. And I'll tell you--I put fewer hours in the day when I
> was teaching. Not that I'm anti teacher but this whole paid/unpaid
> holiday **** is such a piece of ******** argument. Your contracted
> number of days factors in days when you *can't* work. It doesn't make
> any sense at all to say "I'm contracted for 183 days and that's all
> I'm paid for" when, mixed in those 183 days are days where you are not
> allowed to work.... Your contracted salary covers those days as
> well--or it should.

But it doesn't, Mark. It really is only 183 paid days. And I do put in
many, many hours beyond my teaching time. But I'm not complaining. Merely
countering a statement made by another poster that teachers have several
weeks of "paid holidays" per year on top of a long break in the summer.
 
CBI wrote:
>
> "Donna Metler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "K.M. Rowley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > And also keep in mind that "breaks" include visits to the restroom -
> since
> > > teachers are usually required to stay with students, finding time to so
> > something
> > > as basic as take a restroom break is often hard to do.
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > Which is why bladder and kidney problems are very common among teachers.
> It
> > is not at all odd for me to have 4-5 classes in a row with no breaks
> between
> > them. As one class is leaving my room, the next is arriving. And I cannot
> > leave them unsupervised, so unless the teacher who is bringing her class
> to
> > me is willing to wait on me for a few minutes, there is NO time to run to
> > the bathroom-or anything else.
>
> I already agreed with Dorothy that in this regard things are uncommonly
> difficult for teachers. However, it is a different issue than the claim that
> the teachers work many more hours than other educated professionals. Also,
> while I agree that these situations could make live cruel for a teacher with
> a bladder problem (or even a normal person denied the bathroom for hours at
> a time) I doubt it is causing medical illness in large numbers.

Has there been any studies done to determine the percentage of
the occurrence of mental illness by occupation (other than maybe
postal workers).

Martin

> > Similarly, returning phone calls to parents can be a major problem. You
> > can't usually take calls when the children are in the room, so you're
> either
> > stuck returning these on your lunch period, or at home at night.
>
> I know the feeling.
>
> --
> CBI
 
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Mark D Morin wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:26:39 -0400, "Jim Not-From-Here"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >> If you are like most teachers you have your income from those 183 days
> >> dispursed over 9-10 months--vacations included. Functionally, I don't
> >> see much of a distinction between that set up and calling it a paid
> >> holiday. Yes, I've been a teacher and come from a teaching family.
> >>
> >Not exactly. An employer who holds an hourly worker's salary beyond a
> >"reasonable" period (defined in law) may be obliged to pay interest on the
> >pay withheld.
>
> When I was a teacher, I was salaried not hourly
>
> > In NC, a teacher can choose to be paid over 12 months, with
> >the state withholding 20 percent of their monthly pay (teachers in NC are
> >paid for 200 working days over a 10 month period), but the state keeps the
> >interest.
> >
> >In NC, we are given 5 paid holidays: New Year's, Memorial Day, Independence
> >Day (most teachers are NOT paid for this, as our pay period doesn't cover
> >July), Thanksgiving, and Christmas.
>
> I'm not arguing that teachers are over paid just commenting on the
> level of meaningless debate. If your contracted period includes
> mandated holidays and you are working in a salaried position, is
> "paid" vs "unpaid" really a distinction without a difference?

Most teacher contracts are based on a per diem rate.

Ever noticed what happens when a district tries to add days to a
teacher's work year?
 
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Jim Not-From-Here wrote:

> "toto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:38:09 GMT, "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >Maybe things have changes but I recall the teachers lounge never being
> > >empty. You do make a good point with the inflexibility of the schedule
> but I
> > >think in the scheme of things that is a minor issue.
> >
> > You come and teach and then tell us that.
> >
> > It is obvious you have never been in a classroom.
> >
>
> In most schools, the lounge is either part of or adjacent to the workroom
> where teachers get copies made, laminate materials, etc. Naturally it is
> full. It is also the only place most teachers can go during the day where
> they are not constantly besieged by students.
>

Ours does not serve this double duty and any time I've been by there
(on my way to a particular classroom), it has always been empty except
during lunch.
 
CBI wrote:
> "Bob LeChevalier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"CBI" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Even if the hours worked per day comes out to 8-9 that still is not
>>>uncommonly high,
>>
>>It is abusive in the land of the 40 hour workweek to take advantage of
>>labor laws to extract extra time from professional employees for free.
>
>
> Umm ..... 5 x 8 = 40.

But I work more than 8 hours a day. I'm only PAID for 7.5 of the hours
I work though.
>
>
>
>>>especially for someone who considers themselves an educated professional.
>>
>>The difference is that it is pretty continuous throughout the school
>>year; there is no comp time. Normally professionals have peaks and
>>valleys, and after a crunch period get little flak if they want to
>>take a half day to recuperate.
>
>
> I don't know anyone who would consider an 8 hour day "crunch time". It is
> the norm.
>
Uhm, yea... but the norm is also that people have flexibility in that
time. They don't need to BEG for time off to take care of an emergency.

>
>
>
>>>Even if you take the Thanksgiving break, Christmas break,
>>>spring break, etc and treat them as paid vacation time
>>
>>As has been pointed out, teachers don't get paid holidays.
>
>
> By what definition do teachers not get paid hollidays but everyone else
> does? Do you not get a check during the Chrismas break?
>
Depends on where you work. In one place, no, I didn't. I got paid by
the month, and was paid BEFORE Christmas break for the 2 weeks I
worked... and then didn't get paid again until the end of January.
Most places, no... but they do it the same way OTHER professional,
salaried people get their checks: Its
divided by the number of days you're SUPPOSED to work, so that you get
an "even" paycheck each time. I'm paid a caluclated hourly rate for the
216 days I work per year (10.8 months per year). I am not paid during
August depending on how the summer schedule breaks out. This year,
summer session ended August 1, so I was paid in August... once, instead
of the usual twice.

>>They also don't get paid during that time either.
>
>
> Right - they don't get paid during the two months they have totally off. Why
> should they? If they did it would amount to a total of something like 12-14
> weeks vacation per year. During that two months they can either take the
> time or supplement their income.

Its not supplement. Its necessary. This will be the first year that
I've taken a serious part-time job beyond tutoring/working with kids
that I know through parents. I need to, because my 11 month schedule
doesn't allow me to pick up a more lucrative summer position.
I don't live high on the hog, either: I have an average apartment with
an average cost for my area ($874 which includes my parking and my
utilities), a used car (2000 Saturn, bought used in 2002), no credit
cards (one American Express card), one health club membership, and one
Internet Service Provider. I do eat out occasionally, and I do go away
sometimes. My biggest luxury spending is probably books... I never do
manage to wait for the paperback versions, and the local library isn't
accessible to somebody with a physical disability, so I can't go there.

>
>>>Teachers have many legitimate gripes. The schedule is not one of them.
>>
>>That is why attrition in teachers is close to 50% in the first 5
>>years. The job is SO easy, and all those perqs, eh?
>
>
> I never said the job was easy and I did say that teachers do have many
> legitimate gripes. I would assume they are leaving due to them. If they are
> leaving over dissatisfaction with the hours worked then I think they must be
> having some rude awakenings when they look elsewhere because I know of no
> other profession that routinely has a lesser schedule.

I do. I've worked in them. Even the Red Cross Emergency Services
personnel that I work with (as a volunteer), have better perqs than I
do! They get paid less, and don't get overtime, but if they go out on
calls or national assignments, they get COMP TIME! I don't get jack (in
the public schools) for my extra time. I do get comp time in some cases
from the admininstration at my current program, but I am working for a
pediatric rehab/research hospital.

Magi
 
How about no bathroom breaks, no lunch break, and with students from
8:30 to 3:00 straight through?
My day starts at work at 6:30. I'm clocked in at 6:30, never later than
6:45. I LEAVE at 4:00 most days. My days are LONGER than 9 hours.
I'm home by 4:45 if I don't go anywhere after school (a rare event this
year, it seems), and after dinner, I work some more.

Magi

CBI wrote:
\> And once again - I'm not saying they don' t have legitimate gripes - just
> that I don't think the work schedule is one of them (other than the no
> bathroom break thing - that is tough).
>
> --
> CBI
>
>
 
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Mark D Morin wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:16:15 -0700, Joni Rathbun
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Mark D Morin wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:26:35 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >Have you not been following this thread? In my district, we are paid for
> >> >183 days. Period! That's it!! Only 183 days. Three days are set up and
> >> >clean up days at the beginning and end of the school year. And the other
> >> >180 days are IN THE
> >> >CLASSROOM WITH THE CHILDREN. I get *$0* for winter break. *$0*
> >> >for spring break. *$0* for Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, Thanksgiving,
> >> >etc. I only get paid for my 183 contracted days. My husband, on the other
> >> >hand, gets paid a full day for Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, Christmas,
> >> >Thanksgiving, etc, even though he is not working those days. By what
> >> >definition do you call days I do not get paid for "paid holidays"?
> >>
> >> If you are like most teachers you have your income from those 183 days
> >> dispursed over 9-10 months--vacations included. Functionally, I don't
> >> see much of a distinction between that set up and calling it a paid
> >> holiday. Yes, I've been a teacher and come from a teaching family.
> >>
> >>
> >If they were paid, then the amount I have to distribute over those
> >12 months would be larger.
>
> unless the base pay for the 183 days plus holidays was factored into
> the contracted amount for those 183 days. In that case if they were
> not paid holidays, you would have less to distribute through the 12
> months.

Every contract I've had has been based on a per diem rate. "You
will receive $*** per day." And so, when my old district cut
10 days off the school year last year, they had to renegotiate
the contract with the district. Teachers gave up 10 days worth
of pay to the penney. And when my current district added days to some
teachers' contract here, they had to increase pay by the number of days
added.

>
> >
> >It is irrelevant how I distribute my income. Do you get paid
> >monthly? Does that mean you are paid for weekends too?
>
> I'm salaried. Yet if there is a holiday during the week, my check for
> that week is 4/5ths of my base. That's what *I* call not getting paid
> for holidays.
>

And in my case I'm contracted to work 200-some days and must provide
evidence that I worked those days. My contract says I will receive
$*** for each of those days. They add it up, divide by 24 and send
me 24 checks each year.
 
Most places issue checks based on time already worked, not on future
time to be earned.
So if I get a check during winter break, its for the 2 weeks that I
worked BEFORE break.

Magi

CBI wrote:
> "teachrmama" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>CLASSROOM WITH THE CHILDREN. I get *$0* for winter break. *$0*
>>for spring break. *$0* for Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, Thanksgiving,
>>etc. I only get paid for my 183 contracted days. My husband, on the other
>>hand, gets paid a full day for Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, Christmas,
>>Thanksgiving, etc, even though he is not working those days. By what
>>definition do you call days I do not get paid for "paid holidays"?
>
>
> Do you get a check during those weeks?
>
>
 
And even my current school recognizes that, because the last contracts
that we signed indicated the following,
"You are aware that you are not employed during the month of (fill in
month here--for me, it said August, as I'm an 11 month employee). You
may not apply for unemployment insurance at this time as you are
technically not "unemployed", but on a furlough. Applying for
unemployment during the time you are not paid will be seen as a
violation of this contract and may result in termination of your
employment with this employer."

Not those exact words, but that was what it meant!

Magi

toto wrote:
> Teachers are NOT paid for the summer though.
> They are laid off for that time.
 
What teacher's lounge? 2 of my 4 schools did not have them. The other
two were only used during lunch periods... And by those of us that
floated between classrooms and didn't have our own desks/spaces, and
used the lounge during prep.
The one in my last school was regularly empty for long stretches of
time... except for the teachers in the back using the copier or running
to the bathroom or the one phone available.

Magi

toto wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:38:09 GMT, "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Maybe things have changes but I recall the teachers lounge never being
>>empty. You do make a good point with the inflexibility of the schedule but I
>>think in the scheme of things that is a minor issue.
>
>
> You come and teach and then tell us that.
>
> It is obvious you have never been in a classroom.
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits
 
As a doctor, you also get paid a hell of a lot more than I do. I don't
have a PhD, but even teachers that do have a doctorate get paid less
than you do.
You also don't spend your salary on toilet paper, soap, and office
supplies. You get those as a part of your job.
And while you may work more hours (probably more VARIED hours), I can
still never manage to reach a doctor when I need one, nor can I get an
appointment with a general physician without begging. It took me more
than 6 months to get an appointment with a general physician where I
live, despite two medical schools in the city, AND more than 8
hospitals. I finally had to give it up, and now I drive 20 miles one
way to the general physican I was finally able to get an appointment
with. Last year, I had pneumonia and couldn't get an appointment: I
wound up going to a "walk-in clinic".

Magi

Mark D Morin wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:08:37 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>In my contract it states that I am being paid for 183 days. No holidays
>>factored in. Just 183 days. We jsut finished contract negotiations, so it
>>is very fresh in my mind!
>
>
> Of course. Is there any state in the country where labor day,
> christmas, thanksgiving, etc. are school days? Unless they are
> potentially workable days, the whole "183 contracted days" line is
> more than just a little bit misleading.
>
>
>>
>>>>It is irrelevant how I distribute my income. Do you get paid
>>>>monthly? Does that mean you are paid for weekends too?
>>>
>>>I'm salaried. Yet if there is a holiday during the week, my check for
>>>that week is 4/5ths of my base. That's what *I* call not getting paid
>>>for holidays.
>>
>>So you, also, are only paid for the days you work. Your paycheck is just
>>issued differently.
>
>
> No it's not. If you take my yearly contracted amount--it's based on
> the assumption of 40 hrs a week every week--with 4 weeks off that I
> don't get paid for. If you take the pay that I collect for that 48
> weeks and add it up, it's less than the contracted amount--the
> difference being the holidays that I didn't work
>
>
>>Do you really have no paid holidays at all? What type of job do you have?
>
>
> I'm a doctor. And I'll tell you--I put fewer hours in the day when I
> was teaching. Not that I'm anti teacher but this whole paid/unpaid
> holiday **** is such a piece of ******** argument. Your contracted
> number of days factors in days when you *can't* work. It doesn't make
> any sense at all to say "I'm contracted for 183 days and that's all
> I'm paid for" when, mixed in those 183 days are days where you are not
> allowed to work.... Your contracted salary covers those days as
> well--or it should.
>
> ====================================================
> I've read that I flew up the hills and mountains of
> France. But you don't fly up a hill. You struggle
> slowly and painfully up a hill, and maybe, if you work
> very hard, you get to the top ahead of everybody else.
>
> Lance Armstrong
> Cyclist and cancer survivor
>
> http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
 
"Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:26:39 -0400, "Jim Not-From-Here"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >> If you are like most teachers you have your income from those 183 days
> >> dispursed over 9-10 months--vacations included. Functionally, I don't
> >> see much of a distinction between that set up and calling it a paid
> >> holiday. Yes, I've been a teacher and come from a teaching family.
> >>
> >Not exactly. An employer who holds an hourly worker's salary beyond a
> >"reasonable" period (defined in law) may be obliged to pay interest on
the
> >pay withheld.
>
> When I was a teacher, I was salaried not hourly
>
> > In NC, a teacher can choose to be paid over 12 months, with
> >the state withholding 20 percent of their monthly pay (teachers in NC are
> >paid for 200 working days over a 10 month period), but the state keeps
the
> >interest.
> >
> >In NC, we are given 5 paid holidays: New Year's, Memorial Day,
Independence
> >Day (most teachers are NOT paid for this, as our pay period doesn't cover
> >July), Thanksgiving, and Christmas.
>
> I'm not arguing that teachers are over paid just commenting on the
> level of meaningless debate. If your contracted period includes
> mandated holidays and you are working in a salaried position, is
> "paid" vs "unpaid" really a distinction without a difference?
>
To some extent, I agree with you. But when deductions are made, they are
made on the basis of days paid, not period of time from first paycheck to
last. This is why the issue, which seems arcane and irrelevant to those
outside the field, means a great deal for those of us in it. It is a lot
like malpractice insurance: to outsiders, it may seem much less important
than it does to a doctor. You are getting a strong response because you
have, perhaps inadvertently, hit on an issue that is more meaningful to
insiders than outsiders.

What rips most teachers is the assumption that we get paid vacations in the
summer, when most of us have to take part time jobs to earn something, or
have to make very careful plans to budget for that unpaid time.

Jim Wayne
 
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:24:33 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:08:37 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >In my contract it states that I am being paid for 183 days. No holidays
>> >factored in. Just 183 days. We jsut finished contract negotiations, so
>it
>> >is very fresh in my mind!
>>
>> Of course. Is there any state in the country where labor day,
>> christmas, thanksgiving, etc. are school days? Unless they are
>> potentially workable days, the whole "183 contracted days" line is
>> more than just a little bit misleading.
>
>In what way? I am paid for 183 days. That's it.

You are paid to do a job. That job is defined as having 183 days.
Within the time period covered by your contract are days in which you
CANT work in the sense of having classes. Does your contract cover
those days or not? A reasonable person could easily say that it does.

Now, you can either continue to split hairs or sit back and see that
everyone is agreeing on the bigger issue.
>
>
>> >> >It is irrelevant how I distribute my income. Do you get paid
>> >> >monthly? Does that mean you are paid for weekends too?
>> >>
>> >> I'm salaried. Yet if there is a holiday during the week, my check for
>> >> that week is 4/5ths of my base. That's what *I* call not getting paid
>> >> for holidays.
>> >
>> >So you, also, are only paid for the days you work. Your paycheck is just
>> >issued differently.
>>
>> No it's not. If you take my yearly contracted amount--it's based on
>> the assumption of 40 hrs a week every week--with 4 weeks off that I
>> don't get paid for. If you take the pay that I collect for that 48
>> weeks and add it up, it's less than the contracted amount--the
>> difference being the holidays that I didn't work
>
>But in our district our annual salary is figured for 183 days.

And that contract also includes days in which you CANT work.

Does your contract allow you to engage in alternative professional
employment on those days? Is it possible to even work professionally
on those days.

Thus, I can not see any functional difference between saying that you
are paid for 183 days that is evenly divided or that you are paid for
197 days (assuming 14 holidays) and that evenly divided--either way
you say it, it's going to come out to the same weekly paycheck.


>> >Do you really have no paid holidays at all? What type of job do you
>have?
>>
>> I'm a doctor. And I'll tell you--I put fewer hours in the day when I
>> was teaching. Not that I'm anti teacher but this whole paid/unpaid
>> holiday **** is such a piece of ******** argument. Your contracted
>> number of days factors in days when you *can't* work. It doesn't make
>> any sense at all to say "I'm contracted for 183 days and that's all
>> I'm paid for" when, mixed in those 183 days are days where you are not
>> allowed to work.... Your contracted salary covers those days as
>> well--or it should.
>
>But it doesn't, Mark.

yes it does. Because you don't have the option to work. Are the kids
in the classroom christmas day or thanksgiving? yet your contract
covers this period does it not? Or are you not a contracted employee
on those days? The contracts that I've seen are continuous from start
date to end date with no breaks for holidays.

> It really is only 183 paid days. And I do put in
>many, many hours beyond my teaching time. But I'm not complaining. Merely
>countering a statement made by another poster that teachers have several
>weeks of "paid holidays" per year on top of a long break in the summer.

and having sat in both pairs of shoes, i can tell you that the other
poster has a point. Who's right and who's wrong? both and neither.
But I can tell you, by focussing in on "183 days" your missing the
point.
>

====================================================
I've read that I flew up the hills and mountains of
France. But you don't fly up a hill. You struggle
slowly and painfully up a hill, and maybe, if you work
very hard, you get to the top ahead of everybody else.

Lance Armstrong
Cyclist and cancer survivor

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
 
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:40:33 -0700, Joni Rathbun
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Mark D Morin wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:26:39 -0400, "Jim Not-From-Here"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >"Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> >> If you are like most teachers you have your income from those 183 days
>> >> dispursed over 9-10 months--vacations included. Functionally, I don't
>> >> see much of a distinction between that set up and calling it a paid
>> >> holiday. Yes, I've been a teacher and come from a teaching family.
>> >>
>> >Not exactly. An employer who holds an hourly worker's salary beyond a
>> >"reasonable" period (defined in law) may be obliged to pay interest on the
>> >pay withheld.
>>
>> When I was a teacher, I was salaried not hourly
>>
>> > In NC, a teacher can choose to be paid over 12 months, with
>> >the state withholding 20 percent of their monthly pay (teachers in NC are
>> >paid for 200 working days over a 10 month period), but the state keeps the
>> >interest.
>> >
>> >In NC, we are given 5 paid holidays: New Year's, Memorial Day, Independence
>> >Day (most teachers are NOT paid for this, as our pay period doesn't cover
>> >July), Thanksgiving, and Christmas.
>>
>> I'm not arguing that teachers are over paid just commenting on the
>> level of meaningless debate. If your contracted period includes
>> mandated holidays and you are working in a salaried position, is
>> "paid" vs "unpaid" really a distinction without a difference?
>
>Most teacher contracts are based on a per diem rate.

As are most every other contracts. What's your point?

>
>Ever noticed what happens when a district tries to add days to a
>teacher's work year?
>
>

====================================================
I've read that I flew up the hills and mountains of
France. But you don't fly up a hill. You struggle
slowly and painfully up a hill, and maybe, if you work
very hard, you get to the top ahead of everybody else.

Lance Armstrong
Cyclist and cancer survivor

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
 
"Joni Rathbun" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
>
> How we chose to distribute our income does not change the fact that
> we do not receive pay for those holidays.

I think you are arguing semantics.

People define how they get paid in many different ways. For some, if they
don't work they don't get paid. If an hourly worker without paid vacations
takes a week off over the hollidays the next pay period they will not get a
check. That is what I call not having paid vacations.

You define your pay as so much money for so many days and say you do not get
paid for the other days. Functionally, it is no different that saying you
get $X per pay period from a start date to an end date with some possiblilty
of a slight adjustment if the schedule is out of certain parameters. The
bottom line is that when you take the week off (or more) your next check is
still the same. Most people would call getting paid for not working a paid
vacation. This is how it works in the world of salaried employees. You are
paid to do a job - the check is the same no matter how much or little you
work - and you are allowed to take breaks (that are frequently but not
always called paid vacations). Being expected to put in the hours needed to
do a job and not getting comp time for it is also not at all unusual amongst
professionals. In fact, it is usually restricted to hourly wage earners as a
way to avoid paying overime.

I know you don't agree. That is fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree
on that one.

Similar story with the argument over whether the schedule is abusive. I
agree that having to go 5 hours with no access to a bathroom is abusive. I
don't agree that working 8-10 hours per day is unusual for a salaried
professional. Make no mistake that it is hard - it is just not uncommon. I
know you disagree and that I am not going to convince you otherwise (or vice
versa). We'll just have to agree to diagree again.

One more time just to clarify: Teachers have difficult jobs with much to
complain about. I am not saying the job is easy, rosy, or even attractive. I
just think people have strayed away from legitimate issues (i.e. issues in
which teachers have it worse than the bulk of other professionals). Once
more, I know you do not agree........

--
CBI
 
On 19 Oct 2003 00:57:27 GMT, "Magi D. Shepley"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>What teacher's lounge? 2 of my 4 schools did not have them. The other
>two were only used during lunch periods... And by those of us that
>floated between classrooms and didn't have our own desks/spaces, and
>used the lounge during prep.
>The one in my last school was regularly empty for long stretches of
>time... except for the teachers in the back using the copier or running
>to the bathroom or the one phone available.
>
>Magi

The school I worked in did not have a teacher's lounge at all. We did
have an *office* of sorts where we shared desks (you have it period
4 and I have it period 6, etc.) and we had a *teacher's lunchroom.*
The office was almost always occupied by teachers doing prep or
grading on their single prep period. The lunchroom was occupied
during lunch periods only. We had no other place to go when we were
not in class with students either, but then the school had been built
for 1500 students and housed 2200 students when I was working there.




--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
 
"Magi D. Shepley" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> As a doctor, you also get paid a hell of a lot more than I do.

How is that relevant to whether you call spring break a paid vacation or
not?



> You also don't spend your salary on toilet paper, soap, and office
> supplies.

Now THAT is a legitimate gripe!


> And while you may work more hours (probably more VARIED hours), I can
> still never manage to reach a doctor when I need one, nor can I get an
> appointment with a general physician without begging. It took me more
> than 6 months to get an appointment with a general physician where I
> live, despite two medical schools in the city, AND more than 8
> hospitals. I finally had to give it up, and now I drive 20 miles one
> way to the general physican I was finally able to get an appointment
> with. Last year, I had pneumonia and couldn't get an appointment: I
> wound up going to a "walk-in clinic".

I think all of that is horrible but it really is irrelevant to the
discussion at hand.

If you are int he US (which it doesn;t sound like you are) you should change
docs.

--
CBI
 
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