50 Conditions That Mimic "ADHD"

Discussion in 'Health and medical' started by Theta, Sep 20, 2003.

  1. CBI

    CBI Guest

    "Joni Rathbun" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]
    >
    > Ever noticed what happens when a district tries to add days to a
    > teacher's work year?


    Yeah, the teachers object.
     


  2. Joni Rathbun

    Joni Rathbun Guest

    On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, CBI wrote:

    >
    > "Joni Rathbun" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:p[email protected]os.net...
    > >
    > > Ever noticed what happens when a district tries to add days to a
    > > teacher's work year?

    >
    > Yeah, the teachers object.



    Well, most teachers I know are all for it - as long as they are paid for
    those days.
     
  3. CBI

    CBI Guest

    "Magi D. Shepley" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:[email protected]
    >
    > But I work more than 8 hours a day. I'm only PAID for 7.5 of the hours
    > I work though.


    If that is how your contract is worded then that is a legitimate gripe. My
    impression is that mosyt teacher's contracts are not worded to include how
    many hours they are to work (there may be a clause about minimum times to be
    on campus but not how many hours to work).


    > > I don't know anyone who would consider an 8 hour day "crunch time". It

    is
    > > the norm.
    > >

    > Uhm, yea... but the norm is also that people have flexibility in that
    > time. They don't need to BEG for time off to take care of an emergency.


    That is also not at all uncommon. I hear that complaint all the time.

    --
    CBI
     
  4. CBI

    CBI Guest

    "toto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 22:57:44 GMT, "DeChiera" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >I don't understand all this debate ... every economic study I have ever

    seen
    > >has the teaching profession listed as one of the lowest paying jobs in

    the
    > >world. FACT, which I believe.
    > >

    > Well, you are among the few who believe that.
    >
    > As a matter of fact, teachers, on average, are paid quite poorly.


    I believe it as well.


    > And our money. The average teacher spends some portion of his or
    > her salary on classroom supplies that should be provided by the
    > schools. This can include copying, pencils, paper, and even toilet
    > paper in the inner city school I taught in for 8 years.


    And I agree that that is a legitimate gripe.


    > >I, for one, do not want teachers to have to account for their hours ....

    my
    > >fear is the loss of the hours of creativity, imaginations as they pull
    > >together materials and plan for the classroom presentation for our
    > >children. Tabulation of hours for their so needed paychecks, way too
    > >small, if you ask me - seems trivial to their more important task ...
    > >education!
    > >
    > >Leah aka


    I agree.

    They are paid to do a job (with no comment on how well). The whole thing
    about comparing hours is irrelevant (which has been my point all along).


    > Since I left the public school system in the inner city, I have become
    > a radical in that I believe we need a national teacher strike.


    I wouldn't fault them for it.

    --
    CBI
     
  5. CBI

    CBI Guest

    "toto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > >Most comanpies I know of are limiting how much time you can acrue for

    just
    > >this reason. Besides - it really is a completely different situation. The
    > >people are not really given a large amount of time - it is time they have
    > >earned and saved over the course of years. The teachers get the summer

    break
    > >regardless of experience or what else they have done that year.

    >
    > Teachers are NOT paid for the summer though.
    > They are laid off for that time.


    No argument here.

    Personally, I think that the whole idea of summer vacation is outmoded and
    is harmful to both the students and teachers (and hence society). We should
    have school for much more than 180 days a year and pay the teachers
    accordingly.

    --
    CBI
     
  6. Joni Rathbun

    Joni Rathbun Guest

    On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, CBI wrote:

    >
    >
    > "Joni Rathbun" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:p[email protected]
    > >
    > > How we chose to distribute our income does not change the fact that
    > > we do not receive pay for those holidays.

    >
    > I think you are arguing semantics.
    >
    > People define how they get paid in many different ways. For some, if they
    > don't work they don't get paid. If an hourly worker without paid vacations
    > takes a week off over the hollidays the next pay period they will not get a
    > check. That is what I call not having paid vacations.
    >
    > You define your pay as so much money for so many days and say you do not get
    > paid for the other days. Functionally, it is no different that saying you
    > get $X per pay period from a start date to an end date with some possiblilty
    > of a slight adjustment if the schedule is out of certain parameters. The
    > bottom line is that when you take the week off (or more) your next check is
    > still the same.


    No. I don't have any paid vacation time. If I just up and take a week
    off like that, my pay will be reduced by the number of contract days
    I take off.

    I am only paid for the contract days I work. How those dollars are
    distributed is irrelevant. You're the one trying to twist this into
    an issue of semantics but it's not really.

    > Most people would call getting paid for not working a paid
    > vacation.


    Most people wouldn't call this getting paid for not working because
    it's not.

    > This is how it works in the world of salaried employees.


    My contracts have all been based on a per diem rate. If I got
    paid for not working, then I could pick a day to not work and would
    still get the same pay, but that is certainly not the case. I'd
    be docked a day's pay.

    You are
    > paid to do a job - the check is the same no matter how much or little you
    > work - and you are allowed to take breaks (that are frequently but not
    > always called paid vacations). Being expected to put in the hours needed to
    > do a job and not getting comp time for it is also not at all unusual amongst
    > professionals. In fact, it is usually restricted to hourly wage earners as a
    > way to avoid paying overime.


    No one is really arguing the latter. What is annoying is when people tell
    us we don't work any hours beyond the contract hours when, in fact, most
    of us do. Indeed, the hours we put in are similar to those of other
    professionals. Main difference is that while folks will often acknowledge
    that oh, say, an engineer puts in extra hours, about all we ever hear
    is that we are working cushy hours, 7 a day at the most X 180.

    >
    > Similar story with the argument over whether the schedule is abusive. I
    > agree that having to go 5 hours with no access to a bathroom is abusive. I
    > don't agree that working 8-10 hours per day is unusual for a salaried
    > professional.


    No one is arguing that.

    Make no mistake that it is hard - it is just not uncommon. I
    > know you disagree


    No you don't. You didn't read all that I said. You're making
    assumptions or just making things up to fit your agenda. An observant
    person would have noticed long ago that the only time the subject
    comes up is when someone claims we don't put in extra hours. That's
    BS and let it be known.

    and that I am not going to convince you otherwise (or vice
    > versa). We'll just have to agree to diagree again.
    >
    > One more time just to clarify: Teachers have difficult jobs with much to
    > complain about. I am not saying the job is easy, rosy, or even attractive. I
    > just think people have strayed away from legitimate issues (i.e. issues in
    > which teachers have it worse than the bulk of other professionals). Once
    > more, I know you do not agree........



    One more time to clarify: Our main objection is when people claim
    we work contract hours and little to nothing more. We're here to set
    the record straight; that's a bunch of bullshit. That's what we are
    arguing. The rest is your imagination.
     
  7. toto

    toto Guest

    On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:44:55 GMT, "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >If you are int he US (which it doesn;t sound like you are) you should change
    >docs.


    Oh, she is in the US all right, CBI.

    How is she to find a new doc who is any better than the ones she
    tried? Especially since she is probably limited by whatever health
    insurance the district does give her. Not every doctor takes the
    insurance and many people are limited to particular HMOs nowadays.




    --
    Dorothy

    There is no sound, no cry in all the world
    that can be heard unless someone listens ..

    The Outer Limits
     
  8. CBI

    CBI Guest

    "teachrmama" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > > > And the other professionals don't get nearly as much time off
    > > > and often (usually?) are not paid 5 figure incomes.

    > >
    > > Which professions are you talking about that pay less than $10,000 a

    year?
    >
    >
    > I have a feeling that math was not CBI's strongest subject in school!
    > <chuckle>


    Sad thing is that it was (at least one of them). When I first registered for
    college it was as a math major. I took the physics classes for engineers
    instead of the ones for pre-meds and did pretty well in them.

    For some reason I have always had trouble expressing numbers in terms of the
    number of "figures."

    Oh, well.

    --
    CBI
     
  9. CBI

    CBI Guest

    "toto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:44:55 GMT, "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >If you are int he US (which it doesn;t sound like you are) you should

    change
    > >docs.

    >
    > Oh, she is in the US all right, CBI.
    >
    > How is she to find a new doc who is any better than the ones she
    > tried? Especially since she is probably limited by whatever health
    > insurance the district does give her. Not every doctor takes the
    > insurance and many people are limited to particular HMOs nowadays.


    The average "next appointment time" in the US is 9 days. Having to wait 6
    mos is pretty crappy. Sounds like something that needs to be renegotiated.

    --
    CBI
     
  10. CBI

    CBI Guest

    "Joni Rathbun" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]
    > One more time to clarify: Our main objection is when people claim
    > we work contract hours and little to nothing more. We're here to set
    > the record straight; that's a bunch of bullshit. That's what we are
    > arguing. The rest is your imagination.


    Apparently, I dream in black and white.

    Fine - I'll agree to disagree. You do whatever makes you happy.

    --
    CBI
     
  11. Joni Rathbun

    Joni Rathbun Guest

    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Mark D Morin wrote:

    > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:40:33 -0700, Joni Rathbun
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Mark D Morin wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:26:39 -0400, "Jim Not-From-Here"
    > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >"Mark D Morin" <mdmps[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >>
    > >> >> If you are like most teachers you have your income from those 183 days
    > >> >> dispursed over 9-10 months--vacations included. Functionally, I don't
    > >> >> see much of a distinction between that set up and calling it a paid
    > >> >> holiday. Yes, I've been a teacher and come from a teaching family.
    > >> >>
    > >> >Not exactly. An employer who holds an hourly worker's salary beyond a
    > >> >"reasonable" period (defined in law) may be obliged to pay interest on the
    > >> >pay withheld.
    > >>
    > >> When I was a teacher, I was salaried not hourly
    > >>
    > >> > In NC, a teacher can choose to be paid over 12 months, with
    > >> >the state withholding 20 percent of their monthly pay (teachers in NC are
    > >> >paid for 200 working days over a 10 month period), but the state keeps the
    > >> >interest.
    > >> >
    > >> >In NC, we are given 5 paid holidays: New Year's, Memorial Day, Independence
    > >> >Day (most teachers are NOT paid for this, as our pay period doesn't cover
    > >> >July), Thanksgiving, and Christmas.
    > >>
    > >> I'm not arguing that teachers are over paid just commenting on the
    > >> level of meaningless debate. If your contracted period includes
    > >> mandated holidays and you are working in a salaried position, is
    > >> "paid" vs "unpaid" really a distinction without a difference?

    > >
    > >Most teacher contracts are based on a per diem rate.

    >
    > As are most every other contracts. What's your point?


    I never had a contract in the private sector set up like my
    teaching contracts. My last salaried position allowed my employer
    to call on me at will.
     
  12. teachrmama

    teachrmama Guest

    "Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:24:33 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]
    > >> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:08:37 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> >In my contract it states that I am being paid for 183 days. No

    holidays
    > >> >factored in. Just 183 days. We jsut finished contract negotiations,

    so
    > >it
    > >> >is very fresh in my mind!
    > >>
    > >> Of course. Is there any state in the country where labor day,
    > >> christmas, thanksgiving, etc. are school days? Unless they are
    > >> potentially workable days, the whole "183 contracted days" line is
    > >> more than just a little bit misleading.

    > >
    > >In what way? I am paid for 183 days. That's it.

    >
    > You are paid to do a job. That job is defined as having 183 days.
    > Within the time period covered by your contract are days in which you
    > CANT work in the sense of having classes. Does your contract cover
    > those days or not? A reasonable person could easily say that it does.


    No, Mark, I am paid for 183 days! During most school years, we have
    training days that are apart from our contract days, and are paid 1/183 of
    our salary for each of those days in separate checks. If I were paid for
    "the job" between Aug 2o and June 5, I would not receive these extra checks
    for the 3 extra days.

    >
    > Now, you can either continue to split hairs or sit back and see that
    > everyone is agreeing on the bigger issue.


    It isn't splitting hairs, Mark. You are incorrect in your assumptions
    (about my district at least) I'm not certain what "bigger picture" you are
    referring to, but, on this issue of paid holidays, you are uninformed.

    > >
    > >
    > >> >> >It is irrelevant how I distribute my income. Do you get paid
    > >> >> >monthly? Does that mean you are paid for weekends too?
    > >> >>
    > >> >> I'm salaried. Yet if there is a holiday during the week, my check

    for
    > >> >> that week is 4/5ths of my base. That's what *I* call not getting

    paid
    > >> >> for holidays.
    > >> >
    > >> >So you, also, are only paid for the days you work. Your paycheck is

    just
    > >> >issued differently.
    > >>
    > >> No it's not. If you take my yearly contracted amount--it's based on
    > >> the assumption of 40 hrs a week every week--with 4 weeks off that I
    > >> don't get paid for. If you take the pay that I collect for that 48
    > >> weeks and add it up, it's less than the contracted amount--the
    > >> difference being the holidays that I didn't work

    > >
    > >But in our district our annual salary is figured for 183 days.

    >
    > And that contract also includes days in which you CANT work.
    >
    > Does your contract allow you to engage in alternative professional
    > employment on those days? Is it possible to even work professionally
    > on those days.


    I worked 2 jobs for a long time. I wanted to buy a house, and couldn't do
    it on a teacher's salary. On days that I wasn't teaching (and even after
    school on days that I was teaching), I worked my other job. Now, it wasn't
    a teaching job, but it was a job, and I did work during normal school hours
    on my days off. My current contract doesn't limit what I do on my days off
    at all. Should it?


    >
    > Thus, I can not see any functional difference between saying that you
    > are paid for 183 days that is evenly divided or that you are paid for
    > 197 days (assuming 14 holidays) and that evenly divided--either way
    > you say it, it's going to come out to the same weekly paycheck.


    Because if I take a day off for personal reasons, 1/183 of my annual pay
    will be deducted from my next check---not 1/197, as would be deducted if I
    were being paid for holidays as well as days actually workde at school.

    >
    >
    > >> >Do you really have no paid holidays at all? What type of job do you

    > >have?
    > >>
    > >> I'm a doctor. And I'll tell you--I put fewer hours in the day when I
    > >> was teaching. Not that I'm anti teacher but this whole paid/unpaid
    > >> holiday crap is such a piece of bullshit argument. Your contracted
    > >> number of days factors in days when you *can't* work. It doesn't make
    > >> any sense at all to say "I'm contracted for 183 days and that's all
    > >> I'm paid for" when, mixed in those 183 days are days where you are not
    > >> allowed to work.... Your contracted salary covers those days as
    > >> well--or it should.

    > >
    > >But it doesn't, Mark.

    >
    > yes it does. Because you don't have the option to work. Are the kids
    > in the classroom christmas day or thanksgiving? yet your contract
    > covers this period does it not? Or are you not a contracted employee
    > on those days? The contracts that I've seen are continuous from start
    > date to end date with no breaks for holidays.


    No, actually, my salary does NOT cover those days. My contract only covers
    the 183 days that I am required to be at school. NOTHING is mentioned in
    the contract about any other days, except the three training days that we
    may participate in and be paid for.


    >
    > > It really is only 183 paid days. And I do put in
    > >many, many hours beyond my teaching time. But I'm not complaining.

    Merely
    > >countering a statement made by another poster that teachers have several
    > >weeks of "paid holidays" per year on top of a long break in the summer.

    >
    > and having sat in both pairs of shoes, i can tell you that the other
    > poster has a point. Who's right and who's wrong? both and neither.
    > But I can tell you, by focussing in on "183 days" your missing the
    > point.


    Which point would that be? Since the discussion is about whether or not we
    have paid holidays.
     
  13. JZAH

    JZAH Guest

    On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:51:13 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >JZAH <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:34:06 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
    >><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Markositious Probertositious" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>> More bullshit. Those people set up their own society, and they created
    >>>>> their own form of government. That form of government has withstood
    >>>>> the trials of time and is widely acclaimed as the greater wave of
    >>>>> political innovation seen in modern times. That government had no
    >>>>> agenda except trying to balance the pressures of government and
    >>>>> personal freedom - you go read the Federalist Papers, or go to
    >>>>> JAlison's web site, if you want to learn what the origins of this
    >>>>> country were.
    >>>>
    >>>>JAlison has always been right on. Can you post the URL?
    >>>
    >>>http://members.tripod.com/~candst/
    >>>The following site is also good and has the Federalist Papers among
    >>>others:
    >>>http://www.constitution.org/cs_found.htm

    >>
    >>Why are you feeding this?

    >
    >Someone asked a question. I answered it.
    >
    >>Rather than writing (another) ignorant, bigoted screed about
    >>Arabs/Muslims, or (another) redneckish trash post against me
    >>personally,

    >
    >How is my post either one of these?


    I didn't say yours was either. I was referring to Alberto's posts.
    I'm only wishing for a discussion, rather than an attack. I don't
    think it's an impossible dream, however improbable it may be. The
    entire Arab world or the Muslim faith should not be the subject of
    whatever someone writes in reply when neither the entire Arab world or
    the Muslim faith have anything at all o do with the thread.
    Otherwise, the poster is attacking millions of diverse peoples and
    calling into question my right to comment on whatever it is.

    >>maybe somebody can read & reply to what I actually wrote--
    >>for or against, it wouldn't matter. That would certainly be a nice
    >>break from routine.

    >
    >I can't see a lot to say about what you wrote, either pro or con, and
    >I was replying to Mark...


    Fair enough.

    JZAH
     
  14. "Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:24:33 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]
    > >> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:08:37 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> >In my contract it states that I am being paid for 183 days. No

    holidays
    > >> >factored in. Just 183 days. We jsut finished contract negotiations,

    so
    > >it
    > >> >is very fresh in my mind!
    > >>
    > >> Of course. Is there any state in the country where labor day,
    > >> christmas, thanksgiving, etc. are school days? Unless they are
    > >> potentially workable days, the whole "183 contracted days" line is
    > >> more than just a little bit misleading.

    > >
    > >In what way? I am paid for 183 days. That's it.

    >
    > You are paid to do a job. That job is defined as having 183 days.
    > Within the time period covered by your contract are days in which you
    > CANT work in the sense of having classes. Does your contract cover
    > those days or not? A reasonable person could easily say that it does.
    >
    > Now, you can either continue to split hairs or sit back and see that
    > everyone is agreeing on the bigger issue.
    > >
    > >
    > >> >> >It is irrelevant how I distribute my income. Do you get paid
    > >> >> >monthly? Does that mean you are paid for weekends too?
    > >> >>
    > >> >> I'm salaried. Yet if there is a holiday during the week, my check

    for
    > >> >> that week is 4/5ths of my base. That's what *I* call not getting

    paid
    > >> >> for holidays.
    > >> >
    > >> >So you, also, are only paid for the days you work. Your paycheck is

    just
    > >> >issued differently.
    > >>
    > >> No it's not. If you take my yearly contracted amount--it's based on
    > >> the assumption of 40 hrs a week every week--with 4 weeks off that I
    > >> don't get paid for. If you take the pay that I collect for that 48
    > >> weeks and add it up, it's less than the contracted amount--the
    > >> difference being the holidays that I didn't work

    > >
    > >But in our district our annual salary is figured for 183 days.

    >
    > And that contract also includes days in which you CANT work.
    >
    > Does your contract allow you to engage in alternative professional
    > employment on those days? Is it possible to even work professionally
    > on those days.
    >

    Actually, no. The contract I signed limited outside income opportunities.

    Jim Wayne
     
  15. JZAH

    JZAH Guest

    On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:44:47 GMT, "Markositious Probertositious"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> >Rather than writing (another) ignorant, bigoted screed about
    >> >Arabs/Muslims, or (another) redneckish trash post against me
    >> >personally,

    >>
    >> How is my post either one of these?

    >
    >When a person lives in a distorted reality, as she does, they tend to
    >misinterpret what is posted.


    I didn't misinterpret anything. Calm down, man.

    >She said:
    >
    >> Why are you feeding this? Alberto is punding the bully pulpit, and
    >> the wisecracks the Probertosaurus makes, however coincidentally

    >entertaining they may be, are irrelevant.
    >
    >I do not recal lmaking any wisecracks wrt this thread. In fact, I have not
    >made any wisecracks with regard to her for months.


    You made that crack about Sitting Bulls Bar Mitvah. Or had you
    forgotten that already?

    Who is Leo Pfeffer anyway???

    >Of course,with her deep
    >hatred of all things jewish, and her desire to end the State of Israel, and
    >all jews, she will do anything to discredit me.


    Cut the crap, Probertoccio. I didn't say ANYTHING of the sort, in
    this thread, or EVER, so quit the lying.

    As for discrediting you, no matter how hard I could possibly try, I
    could never do as good a job of it as you do yourself. Have the
    common sense to see that. Nobody would believe my "discrediting"
    statements anyway.

    JZAH
     
  16. Seveigny

    Seveigny Guest

    "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Bob LeChevalier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > >Even if the hours worked per day comes out to 8-9 that still is not
    > > >uncommonly high,

    > >
    > > It is abusive in the land of the 40 hour workweek to take advantage of
    > > labor laws to extract extra time from professional employees for free.

    >
    > Umm ..... 5 x 8 = 40.
    >
    >
    > >
    > > >especially for someone who considers themselves an educated

    professional.
    > >
    > > The difference is that it is pretty continuous throughout the school
    > > year; there is no comp time. Normally professionals have peaks and
    > > valleys, and after a crunch period get little flak if they want to
    > > take a half day to recuperate.

    >
    > I don't know anyone who would consider an 8 hour day "crunch time". It is
    > the norm.


    Teachers don't work an 8 hour day. They are contracted for a 7.5 hour day,
    but every teacher I know works at least 10 hours a day, sometimes more.

    > > >Even if you take the Thanksgiving break, Christmas break,
    > > >spring break, etc and treat them as paid vacation time

    > >
    > > As has been pointed out, teachers don't get paid holidays.

    >
    > By what definition do teachers not get paid hollidays but everyone else
    > does? Do you not get a check during the Chrismas break?


    Using your reasoning, the average worker is paid for weekends. They get a
    check every two weeks, even though they only worked 10 days in that two week
    period. I won't be at work on November 11th, on Thanksgiving or on
    Christmas. I won't be paid for those days. You won't be at work on those
    days either, but you will be paid for them.
    > > >(a generous a lotment
    > > >by any US standard) teachwers still get several weeks of uninterupted

    > time
    > > >over the summer during which they can either supplemement their income

    > (work
    > > >in July and August like the rest of us) or take a really long break

    > (which
    > > >many of us would love to have the choice of doing).

    > >
    > > They also don't get paid during that time either.

    >
    > Right - they don't get paid during the two months they have totally off.

    Why
    > should they? If they did it would amount to a total of something like

    12-14
    > weeks vacation per year. During that two months they can either take the
    > time or supplement their income.


    However, that doesn't qualify as vacation. When the average worker is told
    to stay home but not be paid, they consider themselves to be laid off. No
    one is asking to be paid for not working, we just don't want it called
    vacation. The average worker expects to be paid for her vacation. The
    average worker expects to be paid for holidays when the business shuts down.

    > > >Teachers have many legitimate gripes. The schedule is not one of them.

    > >
    > > That is why attrition in teachers is close to 50% in the first 5
    > > years. The job is SO easy, and all those perqs, eh?

    >
    > I never said the job was easy and I did say that teachers do have many
    > legitimate gripes. I would assume they are leaving due to them. If they

    are
    > leaving over dissatisfaction with the hours worked then I think they must

    be
    > having some rude awakenings when they look elsewhere because I know of no
    > other profession that routinely has a lesser schedule.


    Most folks who are teachers worked in other occupations before they became
    teachers. The idea that someone becomes a teacher because they want to have
    lots of vacation time is ridiculous. If you want to have lots of vacation
    time, go to work for a corporation and stay there for awhile. You'll get
    paid holidays, and more vacation time the longer you're there. Stay there
    long enough and some companies will give you six weeks of paid vacation. I
    worked in the corporate world for twenty years. My husband is a lawyer. He
    brings about an hour of work home every day. He's done with his work and
    I'm still working on mine. I'm at school working either Saturday or Sunday
    every week. He goes into the office once a month on the weekend, usually to
    prepare for a trial or if there's been a major meltdown at work. I have
    family and friends who work in various professions. The only one I know who
    works longer hours is a surgeon.
    --
    "Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
    safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    Benjamin Franklin
    ~Cate
     
  17. Seveigny

    Seveigny Guest

    "Mark D Morin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:26:35 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    > >Have you not been following this thread? In my district, we are paid for
    > >183 days. Period! That's it!! Only 183 days. Three days are set up

    and
    > >clean up days at the beginning and end of the school year. And the other
    > >180 days are IN THE
    > >CLASSROOM WITH THE CHILDREN. I get *$0* for winter break. *$0*
    > >for spring break. *$0* for Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, Thanksgiving,
    > >etc. I only get paid for my 183 contracted days. My husband, on the

    other
    > >hand, gets paid a full day for Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, Christmas,
    > >Thanksgiving, etc, even though he is not working those days. By what
    > >definition do you call days I do not get paid for "paid holidays"?

    >
    > If you are like most teachers you have your income from those 183 days
    > dispursed over 9-10 months--vacations included. Functionally, I don't
    > see much of a distinction between that set up and calling it a paid
    > holiday. Yes, I've been a teacher and come from a teaching family.


    As I pointed out earlier, this means the average worker is getting paid for
    weekends. I'm sure if you asked the average worker if they were paid for
    weekends, they would say no. Your "functional" argument is specious.
    ~Cate
    > ====================================================
    > I've read that I flew up the hills and mountains of
    > France. But you don't fly up a hill. You struggle
    > slowly and painfully up a hill, and maybe, if you work
    > very hard, you get to the top ahead of everybody else.
    >
    > Lance Armstrong
    > Cyclist and cancer survivor
    >
    > http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
     
  18. Seveigny

    Seveigny Guest

    "Joni Rathbun" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]
    >
    > On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, CBI wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > "Joni Rathbun" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:p[email protected]
    > > >
    > > > Ever noticed what happens when a district tries to add days to a
    > > > teacher's work year?

    > >
    > > Yeah, the teachers object.

    >
    >
    > Well, most teachers I know are all for it - as long as they are paid for
    > those days.
    >

    This is my experience as well. Most teachers I know would like to see the
    school year lenghtened because of the tremendous amount of "dislearning"
    which takes place over the summer. The school schedule, as it exists, is
    antiquated. Students need to spend more time in school. With all the
    hootin and hollerin that takes place about excellence in education, no move
    has been made to extend the school year. How come?
    ~Cate

    --
    "Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
    safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    Benjamin Franklin
     
  19. Seveigny

    Seveigny Guest

    "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Magi D. Shepley" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > message news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > But I work more than 8 hours a day. I'm only PAID for 7.5 of the hours
    > > I work though.

    >
    > If that is how your contract is worded then that is a legitimate gripe. My
    > impression is that mosyt teacher's contracts are not worded to include how
    > many hours they are to work (there may be a clause about minimum times to

    be
    > on campus but not how many hours to work).


    Okay, let me get this straight. According your "impression" most teacher's
    contracts are not worded to include how many hours they are to work although
    you do acknowledge there "may" be a clause about minimum times to be on
    campus. What do you think our employers expect us to do while we are on
    campus? Eat bon bons and watch soap operas? I arrive on campus at 7:30.
    From 7:30 to 8:00 I prepare to teach. From 8:00 to 9:30 I teach, from 9:40
    to 11:10, I teach. I have a "duty free lunch period" during which I usually
    meet with students, grade papers or prepare for my afternoon class. From
    12:00 to 1:30, I teach. I have a prep period from 1:40 to 3:10. During
    that time I meet with parents, work with students, grade papers, make
    photocopies, enter grades in my grade book, go to IEP or 504
    meetings....Three Tuesdays out of every month I'm in a department or faculty
    meeting which starts at 3:30 and ends at 4:30. Oddly enough, our employers
    expect us to work when we at work, just like every other employer.
    ~Cate

    --
    "Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
    safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    Benjamin Franklin
    > > > I don't know anyone who would consider an 8 hour day "crunch time". It

    > is
    > > > the norm.
    > > >

    > > Uhm, yea... but the norm is also that people have flexibility in that
    > > time. They don't need to BEG for time off to take care of an emergency.

    >
    > That is also not at all uncommon. I hear that complaint all the time.
    >
    > --
    > CBI
    >
    >
     
  20. CBI

    CBI Guest

    "Seveigny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > The idea that someone becomes a teacher because they want to have
    > lots of vacation time is ridiculous.


    I never said they did.

    > If you want to have lots of vacation
    > time, go to work for a corporation and stay there for awhile.


    I would suggest working for the Federal government.
     
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