50 Conditions That Mimic "ADHD"



On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:30:39 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:19:42 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" <[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" <[email protected]>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >So are teachers.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
>> >> >
>> >> >Planet earth.
>> >> >
>> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really
>care
>> >> >about students.
>> >>
>> >> I dont know about most
>> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
>> >
>> >Hogwash, Jake. With the economy as it is now, a kid graduating Mediocre
>> >University with a 2.2 GPA in mathematics can get a job in private
>industry
>> >earning $15,000 or more than the the starting teacher.
>>
>> a little ethnocentric and certainly not true globally
>
>Ethnocentric? How so? Are you aware of the 'ethno' I was referring to?
>
>> >Most teachers I have met do care.
>>
>> I am sure they do..nevertheless in the UK at least children are turned
>> out barely able to read and write
>
>I could point out that your statement is a little ethnocentric and certainly
>not true globally. Oops. I did.
>
>What are new teachers paid in the UK?

£18,105...£ 21,522 in inner London

but I concede your point..it seems as true in the UK as the US

before April

Newly qualified teachers now have a starting salary of £17,595.
According to the Association of Graduate Recruiters, the average
starting salary for graduates is £20,300 - £2,705 (15%) more than
teachers.

just out of interest..

http://education.guardian.co.uk/ofsted/story/0,7348,543848,00.html

Were teachers better off in the 60s?

1965


• Annual salary for an experienced teacher: £1,620 - slightly less
than a GP's salary but more than double a police constable's salary of
£700. A good honours graduate was paid £900.

• House prices: Up to twice a teacher's salary. £2,500 for a
semi-detached house in the Midlands. £4,000 for a detached house in
London suburbs.

• Cost of a small hatchback car: Around £400, a quarter of teachers'
annual salary.

• Number of primary school teachers: 140,377.

• Ratio of pupils to teachers in primary schools: 29 to one.

• Number of secondary school teachers: 141,507.

• Ratio of pupils to teachers in secondary schools: 19 to one.


2001


• Annual salary for experienced teacher: £26,919, half the salary of
an experienced GP and around the same as a police constable. A good
honours graduate is paid £17,000.

• House prices: The average price of £117,000 is more than four times
a teacher's salary. A semi in the Midlands is three times a teacher's
salary. At around £250,000, a detached house in the London suburbs is
more than nine times a teacher's salary.

• Cost of a small hatchback car: Around £6,500, just over a quarter of
a teacher's annual salary.

• Number of primary school teachers: 185,482.

• Ratio of pupils to teachers in primary schools: 23 to one.

• Number of secondary school teachers: 189,000.

• Ratio of pupils to teachers in secondary schools: 17 to one.



>
>> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
>> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
>> >
>> >And that can be said for many diseases and disorders. It is a fallacious
>> >argument.
>>
>> they do not seem to take such a central role in other disorders..
>> the suggestion made that they are trained to do such is absurd
>
>And, no one made such a suggestion. They do have input.
>
>> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>> >
>> >They do not do so.
>>
>> utimately they do as they are told by their employers..the State..
>
>I have dealth with a teacher for 30 years and have never seen that.
>
>> > What they do is report on their observations of the
>> >childs behavior while the child is interacting witht heir peers and with
>> >them. When asked to complete these questionnaires, many of them give a
>lot
>> >of thought. My son's ped neuro exhibited one where the teacher went so
>far
>> >as to hand write out three pages to help the student.
>>
>> There are many dedicated and hard working teachers
>>
>> >You're painting of this profession with such a broad brush of bile is
>sad.
>>
>> I am doing no such thing..merely provided a counterbalance to the idea
>> that most teachers are altruistic saints..
>
>
>With all the bile that they have to put up with, many of them are.

:>)
 
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:32:11 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:14:45 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" <[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >> >
>> >> >So are teachers.
>> >>
>> >> What planet do YOU live on?
>> >>
>> >> http://shorterlink.com/?7RQSJL
>> >>
>> >> MR. SINCLAIR (HISTORY): I started drinking in my car in 1994. I would
>> >> roll up the windows and sit in the east side of the parking lot. In
>> >> the last space. There was coffee in the one, older thermos and scotch
>> >> in the other, newer one. I was caught later that year. But...I would
>> >> say that I definitely stopped caring soon after that.
>> >>
>> >> MR. KEROMAN (MATHEMATICS): Early on. Second semester of my first year.
>> >>
>> >> MR. PAPPAS (SOCIAL STUDIES): Once I was on this strange acne
>> >> medication. It was making me feel completely different from how I
>> >> usually, which is fine. It came to a head one day when I was
>> >> chaperoning a field trip to the Museum of Natural History. I was
>> >> feeling strange and I got off the bus and for some reason started
>> >> crying because I wasn't on the bus any longer. I didn't want to go
>> >> into the school, but I did. And they were looking at me, the kids on
>> >> my field trip. And I felt shame. That was the beginning of something.
>> >>
>> >> MR. LEWIS (PE): I was standing there on the field and...I was standing
>> >> out on the field in September and that's when the geese droppings
>> >> aren't completely frozen yet, but they aren't so wet that they just
>> >> leak into the field. They're solid. It' late November when they
>> >> actually freeze. So the droppings, which cover the field, were still
>> >> slightly wet. Maybe four of these kids ever wear their soccer cleats,
>> >> even after I asked them to. No one was wearing them that day and so
>> >> these kids were sliding in this goose ****. And somehow one swallowed
>> >> a piece. In a tackle, or something, but it was all over his face. And
>> >> I just, you know...I just hated that kid. I had to clean him up.
>> >> (pause) Yeah, but I guess that's the moment.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> These teachers are real.
>> >
>> >I am married to a teacher,
>> and I have no doubt a good one..
>>
>> I married one once too
>>
>> > any your cdharacterization of them is absurd.
>>
>> I simply make the point that there are good bad and indifferent ones..
>
>Not so. You painted the entire profession with a broad brush, without
>qualification or limitation.

No..the previous poster did that suggesting most teachers were
paragons of virtue..

I know that they are not..



>
>
>>
>> It is equally absurd to suggest they are all saints dedicated to the
>> welfare of their charges..
>>
>> whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>
>And, no one is claiming that they are. Red herring.

http://www.aap.org/policy/ac0002.html

RECOMMENDATION 4: The assessment of ADHD requires evidence directly
obtained from the classroom teacher (or other school professional)
regarding the core symptoms of ADHD, the duration of symptoms, the
degree of functional impairment, and coexisting conditions. A
physician should review any reports from a school-based
multidisciplinary evaluation where they exist, which will include
assessments from the teacher or other school-based professional
(strength of evidence: good; strength of recommendation: strong
 
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:39:52 -0400, Mark D Morin
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:02:25 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>
>
>>>I am married to a teacher,
>>and I have no doubt a good one..
>>
>>I married one once too
>>
>>> any your cdharacterization of them is absurd.
>>
>>I simply make the point that there are good bad and indifferent ones..
>>
>>It is equally absurd to suggest they are all saints dedicated to the
>>welfare of their charges..
>>
>>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>
>But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
>Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
>processes.

really?
what professional qualification do they possess for this?
what course of clinical training have they done?








>====================================================
>The "anti" group on any subject can stall it forever
>by asking an unlimited number of questions and feeding
>an unlimited number of fears. And if we require that
>something be absolutely safe and absolutely understood
>before we use it, we'll never use anything,
>because we'll never have absolute understanding.
> David Wright 9/20/03
>
>http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
 
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:51:53 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:39:52 -0400, Mark D Morin
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:02:25 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>I am married to a teacher,
>>>and I have no doubt a good one..
>>>
>>>I married one once too
>>>
>>>> any your cdharacterization of them is absurd.
>>>
>>>I simply make the point that there are good bad and indifferent ones..
>>>
>>>It is equally absurd to suggest they are all saints dedicated to the
>>>welfare of their charges..
>>>
>>>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>>
>>But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
>>Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
>>processes.
>
>really?
>what professional qualification do they possess for this?

The qualification of being human.

>what course of clinical training have they done?

Strange, when I was in the department of education, there was explicit
training in observation and recording. My assumption is that others
had similar training.


====================================================
The "anti" group on any subject can stall it forever
by asking an unlimited number of questions and feeding
an unlimited number of fears. And if we require that
something be absolutely safe and absolutely understood
before we use it, we'll never use anything,
because we'll never have absolute understanding.
David Wright 9/20/03

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
 
[email protected] (Theta) writes:

>If you put bad gas or have old or the
>wrong oil in your car, it will act up just like a child acts up when
>eating foods they are allergic to, drinking or breathing contaminated
>water or air or having blood disorders.

Wow man, what drugs have you been taking!?!
--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
 
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
> >>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
> >But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
> >Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
> >processes.
> really?
> what professional qualification do they possess for this?
> what course of clinical training have they done?

It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
things like:

Having difficulty playing quietly.
Often talking excessively.
Often interrupting or intruding on others.
Often not listening to what is being said.
Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.

There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
 
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
>> >>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>> >But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
>> >Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
>> >processes.
>> really?
>> what professional qualification do they possess for this?
>> what course of clinical training have they done?
>
>It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
>teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
>things like:
>
>Having difficulty playing quietly.
>Often talking excessively.
>Often interrupting or intruding on others.
>Often not listening to what is being said.
>Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>
>There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
>considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
>what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.

they might as well ask the school caretaker for his input too..


>
 
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
>> >>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>> >But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
>> >Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
>> >processes.
>> really?
>> what professional qualification do they possess for this?
>> what course of clinical training have they done?
>
>It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
>teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
>things like:
>
>Having difficulty playing quietly.
>Often talking excessively.
>Often interrupting or intruding on others.
>Often not listening to what is being said.
>Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>
>There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
>considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
>what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.

Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?

That is the linchpin of the diagnostic protocol, after all.

Joe Parsons
 
Roger Schlafly wrote:

> "jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
>
>>>>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>>>
>>>But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
>>>Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
>>>processes.
>>
>>really?
>>what professional qualification do they possess for this?
>>what course of clinical training have they done?
>
>
> It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
> teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
> things like:
>
> Having difficulty playing quietly.
> Often talking excessively.
> Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> Often not listening to what is being said.
> Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>
> There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>
>

That's exactly why you look for converging evidence roger rather than
one single data source.
 
"Joe Parsons" <[email protected]> wrote
> >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> >Often talking excessively.
> >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> >Often not listening to what is being said.
> >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
> Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
> developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?

There are no standards for that either! What I consider maladaptive
and inconsistent might be entirely different from what some 2nd grade
teacher think, and entirely different from what some ped expects.
 
"mark" <[email protected]> wrote
> > Having difficulty playing quietly.
> > Often talking excessively.
> > Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> > Often not listening to what is being said.
> > Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> > There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> > considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> > what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
> That's exactly why you look for converging evidence roger rather than
> one single data source.

So one teacher and one parent say that the kid doesn't play quietly
and that he has similar behavior problems, and the ped decides
that it is maladaptive and puts the kid on drugs.
 
Roger Schlafly wrote:

> "Joe Parsons" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>>Having difficulty playing quietly.
>>>Often talking excessively.
>>>Often interrupting or intruding on others.
>>>Often not listening to what is being said.
>>>Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>>>There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
>>>considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
>>>what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>>
>>Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
>>developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?
>
>
> There are no standards for that either! What I consider maladaptive
> and inconsistent might be entirely different from what some 2nd grade
> teacher think, and entirely different from what some ped expects.
>
>

What is your point?
The very same standards are used in medical tests. You *might* have a
blood level of X that is above some arbitrary cut off but since it is
not a problem for you, there is no intervention. Your level may be below
the cut off but since you are having problems, there are interventions.
Judgements such as these are made all the time in medicine.

Or wd you prefer to be an isolationist and live in a cave?
 
Roger Schlafly wrote:

> "Joe Parsons" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>>Having difficulty playing quietly.
>>>Often talking excessively.
>>>Often interrupting or intruding on others.
>>>Often not listening to what is being said.
>>>Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>>>There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
>>>considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
>>>what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>>
>>Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
>>developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?
>
>
> There are no standards for that either!

Actually, there are standards. Have you looked at any of the manuals
for the rating tools and examined the normative data?
 
Roger Schlafly wrote:
> "mark" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>>Having difficulty playing quietly.
>>>Often talking excessively.
>>>Often interrupting or intruding on others.
>>>Often not listening to what is being said.
>>>Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>>>There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
>>>considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
>>>what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>>
>>That's exactly why you look for converging evidence roger rather than
>>one single data source.
>
>
> So one teacher and one parent say that the kid doesn't play quietly
> and that he has similar behavior problems, and the ped decides
> that it is maladaptive and puts the kid on drugs.

It must have been a while since you've looked at the diagnostic
criteria. Perhaps you should refresh yourself.
 
"Joe Parsons" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
> >> >>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
> >> >But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
> >> >Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
> >> >processes.
> >> really?
> >> what professional qualification do they possess for this?
> >> what course of clinical training have they done?
> >
> >It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
> >teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
> >things like:
> >
> >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> >Often talking excessively.
> >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> >Often not listening to what is being said.
> >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> >
> >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>
> Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
> developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?
>
> That is the linchpin of the diagnostic protocol, after all.

And, it is the one that roger always forgets to mention, even though he is
always reminded. I wonder why?
 
[email protected] (Theta) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> > Don't get fooled folks, 'theta' is a posting Scientology inspired
> > ****. After he failed to post his BS in alt.religion.scientolgy
>
> Errrm...okay.....replace the words "failed to" with the word "didn't".
> And...well, if you believe my opinions to be "BS" well that's your
> right. :eek:)

Anyone can check your posts on the newsgroup, you now deny having
made:
http://tinyurl.com/oa6v

Stop lying for once in the name of Scientology. Once again you are
proven to be a cult shill.


Mike Gormez
--
www.taxexemptchildabuse.net
 
"Markus Probertus" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I dont know about most
>> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
>
>Hogwash, Jake. With the economy as it is now, a kid graduating Mediocre
>University with a 2.2 GPA in mathematics can get a job in private industry
>earning $15,000 or more than the the starting teacher.

We had a teachers' strike here last week over poor pay. One example
given was that a 19-year-old plumber coming out of a 4-year
apprenticeship (left school at 15) will have a starting income which
is about $5,000 more than a starting teacher with a degree. In some
markets (Sydney property boom being one) the plumber will start out
with more money than a primary school head teacher.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
 
>Subject: Re: 50 Conditions That Mimic "ADHD"
>From: [email protected] (Mike Gormez)
>Date: 9/22/2003 2:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>[email protected] (Jan) wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>
>> >Don't get fooled folks, 'theta' is a posting Scientology inspired
>> >****.
>>
>> It seems you are fooled. This is about drugging kids NOT about Scientology.
>
>So you are taking advice from a scientology shill

This is about drugging kids, not Scientology.

I knew about Ritalin years ago, before I ever heard of Scientology.

I didn't need advice, I saw the results of Ritalin for 38 years.

Jan
 
"Peter Bowditch" <[email protected]> wrote
> markets (Sydney property boom being one) the plumber will start out
> with more money than a primary school head teacher.

So how many teachers have quit to become plumbers?

Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
about $6k/month, plus benefits.
 
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