50 Conditions That Mimic "ADHD"



On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:15:28 -0700, "teachrmama" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"CBI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> "JZAH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > Declaring that there is something wrong with your opponent's brain is
>> > a longstanding debate tactic around here. So don't fight tradition.
>>
>> Doesn't say much for the level of discourse of the group. In most circles
>it
>> is a tactic taken by those on the losing end.

This guy must be new to Usenet!!!

>> > But aside from that, I think it's only fair to warn you that you have
>> > been contradicted by much reasonable and quantifiable evidence.
>>
>> Nah. Several people (but not all) have expressed contrary opinions but I
>> think it is one of those things that can't really be proved.
>
>Actually, it has been thoroughly proved. You just choose to believe what
>you want to believe. The exact wording of at least one contract has been
>presented to you. Evidence that days outside of the specifically identified
>days are paid as extra days, even though they fall during your "paid
>holiday" period has been presented to you. The fact that a day missed from
>work is docked as 1/183 rather than 1/194 (which would include holidays in
>the annual total) has been presented. But you stubbornly insist that your
>take on the issue is the correct one, and that all of us who are actually a
>part of the system and negotiate for our contracts don't have a clue. I,
>for one, know the facts about the contract I sign. I believe that would
>leave you as the one with an opinion.

Well, yes... what you said. I'm not a "me tooer" but I can't help but
wonder what this guy thinks he's doing. Facts are facts, and the
facts are not on his side. Period.

JZAH
 
On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 05:19:48 GMT, "Seveigny" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> If there is a single teacher, who is reading this
>thread, who is paid forward rather than backward, please speak up. Every
>teacher, in every district I know of, is paid for the preceeding month not
>the current month. The paycheck I received on September 30, which was the
>first paycheck I received for this academic year, paid for the days I worked
>in August and September. I was paid for 30 days, at the per diem rate.

I have taught for three different districts in two different states.
In all of them, we were paid backward exactly as you describe it.

JZAH
 
"Seveigny" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<WFolb.202282$%h1.201997@sccrnsc02>...
> "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Interesting.....
> >
> > So when you guys talk about how your experience it is "proof." When
> > someone else does it is "generalizing."
>
> When we talk about our experience, we are giving current information. When
> you talk about your experience, you are giving historical information.

1) You are confusing me with Mark. He was the teacher.

2) I am not giving historical information. Some of YOU have given
information (which was phrased in the present tense so I assume it is
current) that indicates a salaried situation (whether the school
district prefers to call it that or not).

BTW - I'm too busy (read: lazy) to go back and find the appropriate
post to put this under but (re: working more than 40 hours): This
week's Time magazine gives the statistic that 80% of working men and
60(something)% working women work more than 40 hours per week. It is
not at all uncommon.


> > When you guys say how YOU get paid it is how things are. When someone
> > else does they should remember that things are different all over.
> >
> > Got it.
>
> No, I don't think you've got it. We're here, we're working in the teaching
> profession.

Some of you (not all) describe a payment scheme that is, in effect, a
salaried possition with paid hollidays - even if you do not recognize
it yourselves.

If the contract says that you start at this time and end at that time
and for the duration you have the following responsibilities and every
x number of days you will be paid y number of dollars regardless of
how many days or hours you work - that is a salaried position. If you
draw the same pay check whether you work the week or not that is a
paid vacation. Labelling it in terms of days as the metric for
determining full time vs part time status is irrelevant (just as other
employers defining the same issue as full time, half time, 0.6 time,
etc does not change the character of the basic salary arrangement).

--
CBI



How long ago did you teach? Why do you assume that your past
> experience is more valid the current conditions teachers work under? Even
> if your experience is valid, why does it invalidate the experience of the
> people who are currently teaching?
> ~Cate
 
"Magi D. Shepley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I did try that... I didn't get very far. :( Despite the fact that I can
> get into the hospital with my employee ID when everybody else gets
> searched... Both the pediatric hospital I work for, and our much larger
> affiliate hospital up the street.
>

JHH?
 
"looper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Magi D. Shapely wrote:
>
> > You're just full of assumptions, aren't you? My mom works for the
> > federal government and she works on Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years,
> > Easter Sunday, Memorial DAy, Labor Day, etc.
> > The only time she doesn't work one of those days is if it is her
> > scheduled day off.
> Love the overtime!
>

??????

Since when do gov't employees get paid overtime????

Buny
 
"CBI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Seveigny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<WFolb.202282$%h1.201997@sccrnsc02>...
> > "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Interesting.....
> > >
> > > So when you guys talk about how your experience it is "proof." When
> > > someone else does it is "generalizing."
> >
> > When we talk about our experience, we are giving current information.
When
> > you talk about your experience, you are giving historical information.
>
> 1) You are confusing me with Mark. He was the teacher.
>
> 2) I am not giving historical information. Some of YOU have given
> information (which was phrased in the present tense so I assume it is
> current) that indicates a salaried situation (whether the school
> district prefers to call it that or not).
>
> BTW - I'm too busy (read: lazy) to go back and find the appropriate
> post to put this under but (re: working more than 40 hours): This
> week's Time magazine gives the statistic that 80% of working men and
> 60(something)% working women work more than 40 hours per week. It is
> not at all uncommon.
>
>
> > > When you guys say how YOU get paid it is how things are. When someone
> > > else does they should remember that things are different all over.
> > >
> > > Got it.
> >
> > No, I don't think you've got it. We're here, we're working in the
teaching
> > profession.
>
> Some of you (not all) describe a payment scheme that is, in effect, a
> salaried possition with paid hollidays - even if you do not recognize
> it yourselves.
>
> If the contract says that you start at this time and end at that time
> and for the duration you have the following responsibilities and every
> x number of days you will be paid y number of dollars regardless of
> how many days or hours you work - that is a salaried position. If you
> draw the same pay check whether you work the week or not that is a
> paid vacation. Labelling it in terms of days as the metric for
> determining full time vs part time status is irrelevant (just as other
> employers defining the same issue as full time, half time, 0.6 time,
> etc does not change the character of the basic salary arrangement).

You are wrong. Period. Just because you choose to describe per diem pay
over a specific number of days divided into a specific number of paychecks
as "salaried" does not make it so.
 
"CBI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Seveigny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<WFolb.202282$%h1.201997@sccrnsc02>...
> > "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Interesting.....
> > >
> > > So when you guys talk about how your experience it is "proof." When
> > > someone else does it is "generalizing."
> >
> > When we talk about our experience, we are giving current information.
When
> > you talk about your experience, you are giving historical information.
>
> 1) You are confusing me with Mark. He was the teacher.

You're right. I was confused.

> 2) I am not giving historical information. Some of YOU have given
> information (which was phrased in the present tense so I assume it is
> current) that indicates a salaried situation (whether the school
> district prefers to call it that or not).

If you're not a teacher and never have been a teacher, where are you getting
your information?
I don't know to whom you are referring. According to my recollection, every
teacher who has posted on this thread has indicated that they are paid on a
per diem basis. If I am wrong, and there are teachers (or spouses of
teachers) who are still following this neverending thread, please let me
know. It's interesting that you say that our situation is salaried, whether
or not the school district prefers to call it that or not. What, exactly,
does that mean? If a contract refers to the workers being paid a per diem
rate for a specific numbers of days, how is that a salaried position? What
would be the benefit, to the school district, to designate an employee as a
per diem worker when the worker was actually salaried? This is a
troublesome question, since many staff members are salaried
employees--administrators and clerical staff are salaried employees in my
district, while teachers are per diem employees. Do you think that my dist
rict doesn't know the difference?
From time to time I have worked, during the summer, for my school district.
When I did so, I was paid an hourly rate. I had to fill out a time card and
meet specific criteria for my work. How does that fit into your idea about
teaching wages?

> BTW - I'm too busy (read: lazy) to go back and find the appropriate
> post to put this under but (re: working more than 40 hours): This
> week's Time magazine gives the statistic that 80% of working men and
> 60(something)% working women work more than 40 hours per week. It is
> not at all uncommon.

I'll go and look at the article. I'm wondering why you are mentioning this
data. I'm wondering if the men and women included in the article work more
than 40 hours a week without any sort of compensation, either pay or comp
time?

> > > When you guys say how YOU get paid it is how things are. When someone
> > > else does they should remember that things are different all over.
> > >
> > > Got it.
> >
> > No, I don't think you've got it. We're here, we're working in the
teaching
> > profession.
>
> Some of you (not all) describe a payment scheme that is, in effect, a
> salaried possition with paid hollidays - even if you do not recognize
> it yourselves.

You're the one who keeps telling us we're being paid for holidays. Several
of us have pointed out that using your logic, the average worker is paid for
Saturdays and Sundays, since the average worker receives a paycheck every
two weeks. We keep telling you that we are not paid forward, we are paid
backwards. The district calculates the number of days I work, divides in by
10 or 12 months, depending on what I ask for, and pays me that amount of
money. Veterans Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, Presidents Day,
Martin Luther King Jr. Day, and Memorial Day are not included.


> If the contract says that you start at this time and end at that time
> and for the duration you have the following responsibilities and every
> x number of days you will be paid y number of dollars regardless of
> how many days or hours you work - that is a salaried position. If you
> draw the same pay check whether you work the week or not that is a
> paid vacation. Labelling it in terms of days as the metric for
> determining full time vs part time status is irrelevant (just as other
> employers defining the same issue as full time, half time, 0.6 time,
> etc does not change the character of the basic salary arrangement).

I am not paid "y" number of dollars regardless of how many days I work. I
have "x" number of sick days. If I exceed my allotted sick days, my pay
decreases. In my district, teachers who have a "savings bank" of sick days
have given days to teachers who have not accrued enough sick days. If I
fail to attend a mandatory staff development day my pay is docked and that
day is deducted from my retirement pay. Two years ago, I failed to attend a
staff development day so that I could go to parent's weekend at my
daughter's college. In order to make up the time, I had to attend a "makeup
day" created by the district, in order to be paid and make sure that I can
collect my full pension when I retire. You can continue to insist that it's
all the same, but your denial of the facts doesn't change the facts. I work
185 days. I am allowed, by my school district, to have those 185 days split
up between 10 months or 12 months. I does not change the fact that I work
185 days and I am paid for 185 days. Those days do not include national
holidays, winter break, spring break or "summer vacation".

Cate
--
"Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
 
You're not understanding the issue: I *DID* go to an urgent care
provider, which is where I was referred. I find that utterly
reprehensible, since I should have been able to get a primary care
physician. I should not have had to make an appointment in OCTOBER for
a doctor's visit in JUNE. Not with 2 major medical schools, and 8
hospitals in a 5 mile radius. I should not, now, have to drive 25 miles
to a primary care physician when she works for one of the major
hospitals that is less than 1/2 a mile from my apartment.
If I *choose* to drive that distance to a doctor, that's one thing. I
do choose to drive farther than that for my specialist. To be forced to
that instance is stupidity.
I think that the doctors and hospitals need to re-evaluate their
scheduling priorities and how they see patients. If I am your patient,
you have no right to turn me away because you only see "new" patients on
"specific days of the week". As a teacher, I can't turn away a new
student and say, "Sorry. I only accept new students on Wednesdays, and
I already have 3 new students coming for the next 3 Wednesdays, so you
can't start in my classroom until the end of November!"
That would be ridiculous. So, why can a physician do it?

Magi

DiChiera wrote:
> "Magi D. Shepley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>I did try that... I didn't get very far. :( Despite the fact that I can
>>get into the hospital with my employee ID when everybody else gets
>>searched... Both the pediatric hospital I work for, and our much larger
>>affiliate hospital up the street.
>>
>>Magi
>
>
>
> Magi,
>
> That would be hard for me to understand, if I were in your place.
> I still think the emergency room or an urgent care might help for the
> time being at least until you were able to get on someone's roster.
>
> Another thought just came to me, could you get your previous doctor
> to recommend or contact someone in the city with the reasons as to the
> urgency. Or are their any help health organizations ... you could
> talk to, for instance the university my husband works at has a help
> line with offices/people to talk to. Maybe you could get in through
> the back door. Just a thought.
>
> Leah aka
 
She doesn't get overtime. Those are her regularly scheduled work days.

Magi

looper wrote:
> Love the overtime!
>
> Magi D. Shapely wrote:
>
>> You're just full of assumptions, aren't you? My mom works for the
>> federal government and she works on Thanksgiving, Christmas, New
>> Years, Easter Sunday, Memorial DAy, Labor Day, etc.
>> The only time she doesn't work one of those days is if it is her
>> scheduled day off.
>>
>> Magi
>>
>> CBI wrote:
>>
>>> "Seveigny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:1tpkb.815700$Ho3.224419@sccrnsc03...
>>>
>>>
>>>> The idea that someone becomes a teacher because they want to have
>>>> lots of vacation time is ridiculous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I never said they did.
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you want to have lots of vacation
>>>> time, go to work for a corporation and stay there for awhile.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would suggest working for the Federal government.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
 
CBI wrote:
> BTW - I'm too busy (read: lazy) to go back and find the appropriate
> post to put this under but (re: working more than 40 hours): This
> week's Time magazine gives the statistic that 80% of working men and
> 60(something)% working women work more than 40 hours per week. It is
> not at all uncommon.

The difference is (and in capital letters so you can find it) THEY GET
PAID FOR THEIR EXTRA TIME!!! They either get comp time, overtime, some
perq, the ability to rearrange their schedule, whatever so they get
COMPENSATED for that extra time! TEACHERS NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GET
COMPENSATED FOR WORKING OVER 40 HOURS.
As my prinicpal pointed out to all of us in an email this week,
"Professionally licensed personnel in our school are exempt status,
which means you work as long as it takes to get the job done, and we
don't have to pay you extra money."

>>>When you guys say how YOU get paid it is how things are. When someone
>>>else does they should remember that things are different all over.
>>>
>>>Got it.
>>
>>No, I don't think you've got it. We're here, we're working in the teaching
>>profession.
>
>
> Some of you (not all) describe a payment scheme that is, in effect, a
> salaried possition with paid hollidays - even if you do not recognize
> it yourselves.

Allegedly, we have 2 weeks off this December. I will only get paid ONE
TIME in December this year, because of that pay scheme. I will LOSE
$1200. Now, tell me again how I get paid for my holidays?
>
> If the contract says that you start at this time and end at that time
> and for the duration you have the following responsibilities and every
> x number of days you will be paid y number of dollars regardless of
> how many days or hours you work - that is a salaried position.
My contract says that I get paid $22/hour for 216/days a year. It does
say that my "total salary" will be "$xx,***.", but that is for the
convenience of the business office. ALL of my contracts read that way.
They have the HOURLY SALARY THAT I MAKE.

Magi
 
NOYB.

CBI wrote:
> "Magi D. Shepley" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>I did try that... I didn't get very far. :( Despite the fact that I can
>>get into the hospital with my employee ID when everybody else gets
>>searched... Both the pediatric hospital I work for, and our much larger
>>affiliate hospital up the street.
>>
>
>
> JHH?
 
The US government they do. What government are you working for?

SumBuny wrote:

> "looper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Magi D. Shapely wrote:
>>
>>
>>>You're just full of assumptions, aren't you? My mom works for the
>>>federal government and she works on Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years,
>>>Easter Sunday, Memorial DAy, Labor Day, etc.
>>>The only time she doesn't work one of those days is if it is her
>>>scheduled day off.
>>>
>>Love the overtime!
>>
>>
>
> ??????
>
> Since when do gov't employees get paid overtime????
>
> Buny
>
>
>
 
"Magi D. Shepley" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...


> During the summer, we work less hours...

Tsk, tsk. During the summer you work FEWER years. I hope you don't teach
English!

--Rich --> Sorry, but it's a cathartic revenge against a series of stuffy
old elementary and high school teachers, who, nevertheless, I thank from the
bottom of my heart for teaching me some useful communication skills that
have served me well.
 
:sigh: I've said before, I'll say it again: I do not proofread anything
I write here. If I did, I'd obsess over it and never have time to do
anything else. I do, however, proofread other written communication,
much to the distaste of some of my peers as I find mistakes in their
writing.

Magi

Rich Shewmaker wrote:
> "Magi D. Shepley" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>>During the summer, we work less hours...
>
>
> Tsk, tsk. During the summer you work FEWER years. I hope you don't teach
> English!
>
> --Rich --> Sorry, but it's a cathartic revenge against a series of stuffy
> old elementary and high school teachers, who, nevertheless, I thank from the
> bottom of my heart for teaching me some useful communication skills that
> have served me well.
>
>
 
"Magi D. Shepley" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
..
>
> They have way more flexibility than I have! If I'm not in the classroom
> between 7:30 and 3:00, who is? A sub? What if there aren't any?


<G> One of the sticking points in the current contract disputes in our
dictrict is this: Guaranteed bathroom breaks at least once every two hours
(especially problematic for elementary school teachers and special ed
teachers)...

Buny
 
"looper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> SumBuny wrote:
>
> > "looper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Magi D. Shapely wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>You're just full of assumptions, aren't you? My mom works for the
> >>>federal government and she works on Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years,
> >>>Easter Sunday, Memorial DAy, Labor Day, etc.
> >>>The only time she doesn't work one of those days is if it is her
> >>>scheduled day off.
> >>>
> >>Love the overtime!
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ??????
> >
> > Since when do gov't employees get paid overtime????

> The US government they do. What government are you working for?

Family members have been in the US military--they do NOT get paid "overtime"
for working *any* holidays, nor for working more than 40 hours a week...what
government do you actually have *any* knowledge of? You sound like the
former Iraqi (mis)information minister....all wind and no substance.

Buny
 
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:14:23 -1000, "Rich Shewmaker"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>old elementary and high school teachers, who, nevertheless, I thank from the
>bottom of my heart for teaching me some useful communication skills that
>have served me well.

Didn't you mean "whom" instead of "who" and "which" instead of "that?"

JZAH

P.S. I dedicate the punctuation in today's one-liner to Joni
Rathbun!!!
 
"Seveigny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:fGmb.31071$e01.60582@attbi_s02...
>
>
> I don't think it is a lack of comprehension skills. CBI has made up his
> mind. Nothing we say will change his belief that teacher's are salaried
> employees with paid vacations and holidays.

No - that is not what I said (speaking of comprehension skills).

Some, but not all, of you have described what amounts to a salaried position
and some, but not all, of you have described what amounts to paid
vacations.
 
"Magi D. Shepley" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Allegedly, we have 2 weeks off this December. I will only get paid ONE
> >>TIME in December this year, because of that pay scheme. I will LOSE
> >>$1200. Now, tell me again how I get paid for my holidays?
> >
> >
> > I have told you several times that I don't think you are.
> >
> No, you keep insisting we have paid vacations!

No, I keep insisting that some of you do. What you describe clearly is not
the case (as I have said before).


> I DO punch a clock! Every day, I swipe my ID card through the reader.
> If I don't swipe, I don't get paid. If I swipe late, that money is
> deducted from my salary.

Does your pay = #of hours worked x hourly salary (plus overtime)?

If not; then the clock is just a way to take attendance and the pay
deduction is just a penalty for not fulllfilling your agreement - it is not
indicative of being an hourly employee.


> And yes, I'm paid for the number of days I
> work...

If you come in on a Saturday or work at home for a day while on break do you
get another day's pay?

If not, then you are not paid by the day. The "per diem" rate is just a book
keeping convenience to determine salary. They do it that way because you
don't work year 'round. In other jobs they accomplish the same thing by
assigning people some fraction of full time.


> This summer I didn't have sick leave (not allowed to use it
> during summer session), and I was out sick. I lost 1/216th of my pay.
> It showed on my paycheck. During the summer, we work less hours, as
> well, so I am paid less on the checks. Even though I'm required to be
> in school for the same hours, the students aren't there for the same
> hours, so we get paid less.

Right - if you worked the same hours and were an hourly employee then you
would have been paid the same. You are just salaried at a lower level for
summer school.
 
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