50 Conditions That Mimic "ADHD"



On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:24:25 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Markuss Probertuss" <[email protected]> wrote
>> We ran into an old girlfriend of my sons the other night. Lovely girl,

>doing
>> well in college. Also, very ADHD.
>> You would know within 30 seconds that she talks excessively, often
>> interrupts others (if you could get a word in edgewise) does not repsond

>to
>> what you are saying she never heard it) and certainly cannot play quietly.

>
>If you can diagnose her in 30 seconds, then why do you keep
>posting messages on how it takes 6 months of observations
>to make a diagnosis?
>


Where did anyone say it took 6 months of observations?

====================================================
The "anti" group on any subject can stall it forever
by asking an unlimited number of questions and feeding
an unlimited number of fears. And if we require that
something be absolutely safe and absolutely understood
before we use it, we'll never use anything,
because we'll never have absolute understanding.
David Wright 9/20/03

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
 
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
> >teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
> >things like:
> >
> >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> >Often talking excessively.
> >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> >Often not listening to what is being said.
> >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> >
> >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.

>
> they might as well ask the school caretaker for his input too..



You don't think that they do?

When my son's school was conducting a Functional Behavioral Assessment
(working with his doctor), the people that my son interacted with during his
entire day (i.e., in all settings) were interveiwed. This included:
bus driver
4 core teachers
lunchroom assistants
recess monitors
2 custodians
2 PE teachers
music teacher
speech therapist
occupational therapist
counselor
principal
both parents
student himself

When trying to determine what goes on with a child, it can be very important
to ask *everyone* to give input to what they have seen/noticed/experienced
with the child during his/her day.

Buny
 
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:35:59 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:57:35 GMT, [email protected] (george of
>the jungle) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:20:56 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:22:01 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>

>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>>>>>
>>>>> true..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > and others about
>>>>> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>>>>>
>>>>> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
>>>>>
>>>>> they are there to teach children..
>>>>
>>>>Correct. They are there to teach, and part of that is is help address any
>>>>and all problems which interfere with their students learning. Thus, as part
>>>>of there obligation to the student, they are there to communicate with
>>>>whomever can help the child learn.
>>>
>>>agreed..with the proviso that "helping" does not include the tearing
>>>away of the children from their parents.. and placement in a
>>>children's home for not wishing their child to be on Ritalin.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>

>>And where are kids torn from there parents and placed on
>>Ritalin?

>
>the United States of America..New York ..foe example
>
>It is particularly a problem for black parents
>
>According to a New York Post series on this issue in August 8, 2002,
>the following cases were reported:
>
>Michelle Lawson, the Bronx, New York
>
> Michelle Lawson, an African American housing counselor for a
>non-profit agency, said Bronx school officials repeatedly pressured
>her to drug her 6-year-old son, Dominick, claiming the first grader
>had ADHD because he was disorganized, forgetful and had a problem
>sitting in his seat. School officials were unrelenting, despite her
>continued objections. Then when she complained to the district
>superintendent’s office, she felt even more intimidated. Pressured to


Now *there* is a good primary source--a New York City Tabloid.

LOL
 
Roger Schlafly wrote:
>
> "Markuss Probertuss" <[email protected]> wrote
> > We ran into an old girlfriend of my sons the other night. Lovely girl,

> doing
> > well in college. Also, very ADHD.
> > You would know within 30 seconds that she talks excessively, often
> > interrupts others (if you could get a word in edgewise) does not repsond

> to
> > what you are saying she never heard it) and certainly cannot play quietly.

>
> If you can diagnose her in 30 seconds, then why do you keep
> posting messages on how it takes 6 months of observations
> to make a diagnosis?


Because folks like you keep confusing their snap judgements with the
process a doctor goes through in diagnosing ADHD? Just a thought.
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Joe Parsons" <[email protected]> wrote
> > >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> > >Often talking excessively.
> > >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> > >Often not listening to what is being said.
> > >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> > >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> > >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> > >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.

> > Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
> > developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?

>
> There are no standards for that either! What I consider maladaptive
> and inconsistent might be entirely different from what some 2nd grade
> teacher think, and entirely different from what some ped expects.



Fair enough...what about the child who is in 2nd grade, behaving like a
"normal" preschooler? Is that not maladaptive for a second grader?

Buny
 
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:46:20 GMT, Joe Parsons <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:35:59 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:57:35 GMT, [email protected] (george of
>>the jungle) wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:20:56 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:22:01 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
>>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>>>>>>
>>>>>> true..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > and others about
>>>>>> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> they are there to teach children..
>>>>>
>>>>>Correct. They are there to teach, and part of that is is help address any
>>>>>and all problems which interfere with their students learning. Thus, as part
>>>>>of there obligation to the student, they are there to communicate with
>>>>>whomever can help the child learn.
>>>>
>>>>agreed..with the proviso that "helping" does not include the tearing
>>>>away of the children from their parents.. and placement in a
>>>>children's home for not wishing their child to be on Ritalin.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>And where are kids torn from there parents and placed on
>>>Ritalin?

>>
>>the United States of America..New York ..foe example
>>
>>It is particularly a problem for black parents
>>
>>According to a New York Post series on this issue in August 8, 2002,
>>the following cases were reported:
>>
>>Michelle Lawson, the Bronx, New York
>>
>> Michelle Lawson, an African American housing counselor for a
>>non-profit agency, said Bronx school officials repeatedly pressured
>>her to drug her 6-year-old son, Dominick, claiming the first grader
>>had ADHD because he was disorganized, forgetful and had a problem
>>sitting in his seat. School officials were unrelenting, despite her
>>continued objections. Then when she complained to the district
>>superintendent’s office, she felt even more intimidated. Pressured to

>
>Now *there* is a good primary source--a New York City Tabloid.


Still playing at university seminars?

Do you imagine Ms Lawson is lying?

New York is just one of many places it is happening ..as the NAACP
point out. I dont expect you to address racial preducidice in
diagnosis ..you delude yourself and others that it is some kind of
objective assessment .

never mind..
The Child Safety Medication Act of 2003 is likely curtail the zeal..



__

"In its recent infatuation with symptomatic, push-button remedies,
psychiatry has lost its way not only intellectually but spiritually
and morally. Even when it is not actually doing damage to the people
it is supposed to help,…it is encouraging among doctors and patients
alike the fraudulent and dangerous fantasy that life's every passing
'symptom' can be clinically diagnosed and, once diagnosed, alleviated
if not eliminated by pharmacological intervention."

Paul R. McHugh
Professor of Psychiatry,
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
 
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:11:07 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:

[snip]

>Still playing at university seminars?


Do you mean, do I rely on primary sources (rather than second- or third- hand
accounts) wherever possible in any matter of importance? Yes. Do I try to
apply critical thinking skills? Yes. Frankly, I think these are important
skills. Don't you?

>Do you imagine Ms Lawson is lying?


Do you believe the tabloid account tells the whole story?

>New York is just one of many places it is happening ..as the NAACP
>point out. I dont expect you to address racial preducidice in
>diagnosis ..you delude yourself and others that it is some kind of
>objective assessment .
>
>never mind..
>The Child Safety Medication Act of 2003 is likely curtail the zeal..


Have you ever bothered to read the actual text of HR 1170? Are you familiar
with its sponsors? The amendments? The debate? What actual changes it might
make, if any?

Joe Parsons
 
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:22:30 GMT, Joe Parsons <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:11:07 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>Still playing at university seminars?

>
>Do you mean, do I rely on primary sources (rather than second- or third- hand
>accounts) wherever possible in any matter of importance?


no..


> Yes. Do I try to
>apply critical thinking skills? Yes. Frankly, I think these are important
>skills. Don't you?


certainly..and one of the fruits of critical thinking is the ability
to discern people like you.. rubbishing a source when you cant deal
with the facts.
1+1=2 whatever the souce of the information...

you are very good at posing and answering your own questions...
The question asked was... where is it happening?
the answer is the USA.


>
>>Do you imagine Ms Lawson is lying?

>
>Do you believe the tabloid account tells the whole story?


Ms Lawson tells her story articulately enough..It is only one of many.
the black community could tell..

>
>>New York is just one of many places it is happening ..as the NAACP
>>point out. I dont expect you to address racial preducidice in
>>diagnosis ..you delude yourself and others that it is some kind of
>>objective assessment .
>>
>>never mind..
>>The Child Safety Medication Act of 2003 is likely curtail the zeal..

>
>Have you ever bothered to read the actual text of HR 1170? Are you familiar
>with its sponsors? The amendments? The debate? What actual changes it might
>make, if any?


"The Child Medication Safety Act of 2003 stipulates that as a
condition of receiving funds under any program or activity
administered by the Secretary of Education, each state will be
required to establish policies and procedures that prohibit school
personnel from demanding a child take drugs in order to attend school
or receive educational services."

sounds quite good enough for me.
as I said.. it will curtail the zeal..



"Commenting on the benefits of new legislation Fred Shaw, Compton
NAACP Branch President said, The Child Medication Safety Act will
help restore the partnership between parents and teachers, which has
been harmed by teachers being forced to act as mental health
clinicians.

Parents need their rights safeguarded so they can make informed
decisions on the health and educational needs of their children".

You have some problem with that?





>
>Joe Parsons


--
"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an
invisible government owing no allegiance and
acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To
destroy this invisible government, to befoul the
unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt
politics is the first task of the statesmanship of
today."

- Theodore Roosevelt, 19 April 1906
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Xq%[email protected]...
> "Markuss Probertuss" <[email protected]> wrote
> > > Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
> > > about $6k/month, plus benefits.

> > I would hope that some of the teachers who are from Claifornia would

post
> > some accurate informatoin, other that your idle conjecture.

>
> It is not idle conjecture -- it is from a survey conducted by a big
> teacher's union. You can find it here.
> http://www.aft.org/research/salary/home.htm


You should note that we were discussing STARTING salaries, a salient point I
overlooked.

> That figure is from 2 years ago, and does not include a 5%
> raise that they all got since then. Benefits are much higher than in
> the private sector, and amount to about another $1500 per month.
> Also, in California, teachers can get discounted mortgages and car
> loans, and tuition reimbursement. So they are really getting about
> $8000 per month.


Only if a teacher can take advantage of those benefits.

> And the teachers get paid no matter what happens. Here is a story
> about a California teacher who is sitting in jail, and still collecting

his
> $74,516 a year salary!
> http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6698027.htm


He should not be teaching, period. However, this proves nothing regarding
the issues at hand. Just one of your typical slams against the Gubmnt.
 
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:30:09 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Markuss Probertuss" <[email protected]> wrote
> >> > Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
> >> > about $6k/month, plus benefits.
> >> I would hope that some of the teachers who are from Claifornia would

post
> >> some accurate informatoin, other that your idle conjecture.

> >
> >It is not idle conjecture -- it is from a survey conducted by a big
> >teacher's union. You can find it here.
> >http://www.aft.org/research/salary/home.htm
> >
> >That figure is from 2 years ago, and does not include a 5%
> >raise that they all got since then. Benefits are much higher than in
> >the private sector, and amount to about another $1500 per month.
> >Also, in California, teachers can get discounted mortgages and car
> >loans, and tuition reimbursement. So they are really getting about
> >$8000 per month.
> >
> >And the teachers get paid no matter what happens. Here is a story
> >about a California teacher who is sitting in jail, and still collecting

his
> >$74,516 a year salary!
> >http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6698027.htm

>
> sheesh..and this guy used to make judgements about kids "fidgeting"


I doubt it, and, it is not the norm.
 
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:10:51 GMT, "Marko Proberto"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:30:09 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >"Markuss Probertuss" <[email protected]> wrote
>> >> > Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
>> >> > about $6k/month, plus benefits.
>> >> I would hope that some of the teachers who are from Claifornia would

>post
>> >> some accurate informatoin, other that your idle conjecture.
>> >
>> >It is not idle conjecture -- it is from a survey conducted by a big
>> >teacher's union. You can find it here.
>> >http://www.aft.org/research/salary/home.htm
>> >
>> >That figure is from 2 years ago, and does not include a 5%
>> >raise that they all got since then. Benefits are much higher than in
>> >the private sector, and amount to about another $1500 per month.
>> >Also, in California, teachers can get discounted mortgages and car
>> >loans, and tuition reimbursement. So they are really getting about
>> >$8000 per month.
>> >
>> >And the teachers get paid no matter what happens. Here is a story
>> >about a California teacher who is sitting in jail, and still collecting

>his
>> >$74,516 a year salary!
>> >http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6698027.htm

>>
>> sheesh..and this guy used to make judgements about kids "fidgeting"

>
>I doubt it,


why..I am being told teachers and even caretakers/custodians make such
judgements..


>and, it is not the norm.


I would hope not..!!
 
"aarwbj" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:z5%bb.14014$a16.4938@lakeread01...
> Who can live on 25K a year?
>
> Hmm... let's see. Currently in school, making less than 15K a year

combined
> income (WAY LESS)....
>
> Own my own home that is fully furnished
> Have food in my refrig.
> Can eat out once a day every week
> Have a spouse
> Pay ALL utilities
> Have credit cards and are able to pay them off monthly
> Live in a metropolitan area
>
> And its said that people CANT live off of a teachers salary? Are you
> kidding me? Maybe they just dont' WANT to live off of a teacher's salary.


Depends on where you live. Many teachers have major student loans that they
have to pay off.

> "Markuss Probertuss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:30:39 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:

> >
> > > >What are new teachers paid in the UK?
> > >
> > > £18,105...£ 21,522 in inner London

> >
> > Can anyone really live on that income? In the major metropolitan areas

of
> > the US, that woul dnot support a single person who lives like a monk.
> >
> > > but I concede your point..it seems as true in the UK as the US

> >
> > Some similarities are not worth having.
> >
> > > before April
> > >
> > > Newly qualified teachers now have a starting salary of £17,595.
> > > According to the Association of Graduate Recruiters, the average
> > > starting salary for graduates is £20,300 - £2,705 (15%) more than
> > > teachers.

> >
> > From what I have seen from neighbors' kids, that is not even close to

the
> > disparity in the US. I referred to my neighbor's son in 1992 who

graduated
> > with a 2.2/4.0 GPA from a very mediocre college. However, because it was

> in
> > math, he was picking over job offers which were in the $50-60K range

> whereas
> > if he went into teaching, he could hope to get as much as $40K for a

year.
> > Granted, teachers get better benefits, but, when you are looking to

start
> a
> > family, monetary accummulation is paramount.
> >
> > > just out of interest..
> > >
> > > http://education.guardian.co.uk/ofsted/story/0,7348,543848,00.html

> >
> >
> > Yes, too many similarities.
> >
> >
> >

>
>
 
"SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:It0cb.12584$AH4.1981@lakeread06...
>
> "jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
> > >teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
> > >things like:
> > >
> > >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> > >Often talking excessively.
> > >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> > >Often not listening to what is being said.
> > >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> > >
> > >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> > >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> > >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.

> >
> > they might as well ask the school caretaker for his input too..

>
>
> You don't think that they do?
>
> When my son's school was conducting a Functional Behavioral Assessment
> (working with his doctor), the people that my son interacted with during

his
> entire day (i.e., in all settings) were interveiwed. This included:
> bus driver
> 4 core teachers
> lunchroom assistants
> recess monitors
> 2 custodians
> 2 PE teachers
> music teacher
> speech therapist
> occupational therapist
> counselor
> principal
> both parents
> student himself
>
> When trying to determine what goes on with a child, it can be very

important
> to ask *everyone* to give input to what they have seen/noticed/experienced
> with the child during his/her day.


When Buny hops on an issue it is so well covered.
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> "Markuss Probertuss" <[email protected]> wrote
> > We ran into an old girlfriend of my sons the other night. Lovely girl,

> doing
> > well in college. Also, very ADHD.
> > You would know within 30 seconds that she talks excessively, often
> > interrupts others (if you could get a word in edgewise) does not repsond

> to
> > what you are saying she never heard it) and certainly cannot play

quietly.
>
> If you can diagnose her in 30 seconds, then why do you keep
> posting messages on how it takes 6 months of observations
> to make a diagnosis?


I did not make a diagnosis, but reported my observations.

And, I never claimed it would take 6 months. However, it should take more
than a single office visit, since the clinician needs to rule out all other
possible causes of the behaviors that the observers report.

You know this, as it is not the first time I have said it, and you still
repeat your baloney. I wonder why?
 
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:10:51 GMT, "Marko Proberto"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:30:09 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Markuss Probertuss" <[email protected]> wrote
> >> >> > Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
> >> >> > about $6k/month, plus benefits.
> >> >> I would hope that some of the teachers who are from Claifornia would

> >post
> >> >> some accurate informatoin, other that your idle conjecture.
> >> >
> >> >It is not idle conjecture -- it is from a survey conducted by a big
> >> >teacher's union. You can find it here.
> >> >http://www.aft.org/research/salary/home.htm
> >> >
> >> >That figure is from 2 years ago, and does not include a 5%
> >> >raise that they all got since then. Benefits are much higher than in
> >> >the private sector, and amount to about another $1500 per month.
> >> >Also, in California, teachers can get discounted mortgages and car
> >> >loans, and tuition reimbursement. So they are really getting about
> >> >$8000 per month.
> >> >
> >> >And the teachers get paid no matter what happens. Here is a story
> >> >about a California teacher who is sitting in jail, and still

collecting
> >his
> >> >$74,516 a year salary!
> >> >http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6698027.htm
> >>
> >> sheesh..and this guy used to make judgements about kids "fidgeting"

> >
> >I doubt it,

>
> why..I am being told teachers and even caretakers/custodians make such
> judgements..


No one Buny listed was making a judgement. They were asked to report their
observations. The cliniciams takes all information and sees if there is a
consistency of problems through out the child's environment.

> >and, it is not the norm.

>
> I would hope not..!!


Open invite:

email me, and I will let you know what the "norm" has recently become
around here and wqhat I did about it.
 
"Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote
> > It is not idle conjecture -- it is from a survey conducted by a big
> > teacher's union. You can find it here.
> > http://www.aft.org/research/salary/home.htm

> You should note that we were discussing STARTING salaries, a salient point

I
> overlooked.


Teachers are paid based on seniority and tenure, not merit. So
starting salaries are a lot lower than average salaries. If you want
to compare teachers to plumbers or some other profession, you
need to take that into account.

> > And the teachers get paid no matter what happens. Here is a story
> > about a California teacher who is sitting in jail, and still collecting
> > his $74,516 a year salary!
> > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6698027.htm

> He should not be teaching, period. However, this proves nothing regarding
> the issues at hand. Just one of your typical slams against the Gubmnt.


Plumbers do not collect salary while sitting in jail. One of the fringe
benefits of teaching is that you can be a real goof-off once you get tenure.
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote
> > > It is not idle conjecture -- it is from a survey conducted by a big
> > > teacher's union. You can find it here.
> > > http://www.aft.org/research/salary/home.htm

> > You should note that we were discussing STARTING salaries, a salient

point
> I
> > overlooked.

>
> Teachers are paid based on seniority and tenure, not merit. So
> starting salaries are a lot lower than average salaries. If you want
> to compare teachers to plumbers or some other profession, you
> need to take that into account.
>
> > > And the teachers get paid no matter what happens. Here is a story
> > > about a California teacher who is sitting in jail, and still

collecting
> > > his $74,516 a year salary!
> > > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6698027.htm

> > He should not be teaching, period. However, this proves nothing

regarding
> > the issues at hand. Just one of your typical slams against the Gubmnt.

>
> Plumbers do not collect salary while sitting in jail. One of the fringe
> benefits of teaching is that you can be a real goof-off once you get

tenure.

Except that teachers are fired for incompetence. And, these days, may good
teachers are laid off because of lack of money.

Jeff
 
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:40:03 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:22:30 GMT, Joe Parsons <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:11:07 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>Still playing at university seminars?

>>
>>Do you mean, do I rely on primary sources (rather than second- or third- hand
>>accounts) wherever possible in any matter of importance?

>
>no..
>
>
>> Yes. Do I try to
>>apply critical thinking skills? Yes. Frankly, I think these are important
>>skills. Don't you?

>
>certainly..and one of the fruits of critical thinking is the ability
>to discern people like you.. rubbishing a source when you cant deal
>with the facts.


It appears that what you are saying is that a secondary or tertiary source, like
a newspaper, is as valid to you as any primary source of information.

O...kay. That explains a lot.

But you are right, in that I do view a tabloid newspaper as being less
immediately credible than some other non-primary source. These publications
rely a great deal more on sensationalism to sell newspapers than it does
journalistic integrity.

>1+1=2 whatever the souce of the information...
>
>you are very good at posing and answering your own questions...


Thank you. I try to ask reasonable questions and to suggest sensible answers.

>The question asked was... where is it happening?
>the answer is the USA.
>
>
>>
>>>Do you imagine Ms Lawson is lying?

>>
>>Do you believe the tabloid account tells the whole story?

>
>Ms Lawson tells her story articulately enough..It is only one of many.
>the black community could tell..


Does that mean that you *do* accept the newspaper account as being the entire
story? Nothing was left out? No backstory, no background information? And Ms.
Lawson doesn't tell her story articulately, at all; there are no quotes
attributed to her at all.

There was another, similar story, about three years ago. CPS got involved with
a New York couple who, if the newspaper accounts were to be believed, were told
to drug their child, or lose custody.

There was justifiable outrage about the heavy-handedness of the school and the
invasion of privacy on the part of Albany County Family Court Judge Gerard
Maney.

There were a few pieces of the story that were not widely reported, but which
are found in sources closer to the facts. Some of these pieces may change one's
evaluation of the situation, while others may raise some interesting questions.

First of all, Judge Maney did *not* say, "Drug your kid or lose him." He said,
"You cannot ignore the problem Kyle is having in school. Present some
alternative to the physician's diagnosis and prescription." They didn't--but
consented to an "adjournment in contemplation of dismissal." That meant that,
being unwilling to provide some alternative solution to Kyle's manifest
problems, they agreed to take the earlier solution.

Second: Michael Carroll, the father, had been investigated for domestic violence
toward his spouse and toward his children. As is common with many of these
kinds of cases, court action was not initiated. Was there actually a real
history of domestic violence in the household? There's no way to know for
certain, absent court records, and there are none--but it does raise the
question.

Finally, there is the interesting fact that Mr. and Mrs. Carroll had separate
attorneys: the father was represented by the Public Defender, while the mother
had her own attorney. While this fact is not conclusive of anything, it is not
typical in this type of hearing (AFAIK) and could lend credence to the idea that
there was something else going on in the Carroll household contributing to the
situation.

It's amazing what you can learn, if you look beyond lurid headlines daytime
television.

>>>New York is just one of many places it is happening ..as the NAACP
>>>point out. I dont expect you to address racial preducidice in
>>>diagnosis ..you delude yourself and others that it is some kind of
>>>objective assessment .
>>>
>>>never mind..
>>>The Child Safety Medication Act of 2003 is likely curtail the zeal..

>>
>>Have you ever bothered to read the actual text of HR 1170? Are you familiar
>>with its sponsors? The amendments? The debate? What actual changes it might
>>make, if any?

>
>"The Child Medication Safety Act of 2003 stipulates that as a
>condition of receiving funds under any program or activity
>administered by the Secretary of Education, each state will be
>required to establish policies and procedures that prohibit school
>personnel from demanding a child take drugs in order to attend school
>or receive educational services."
>
>sounds quite good enough for me.
>as I said.. it will curtail the zeal..


Since the incidence of "demanding a child take drugs" is *extremely* slight, it
is not likely to make a significant difference.

The "zeal" you speak of: is that related to the "skyrocketing" number of ER
interventions for methylphenidate abuse?

Joe Parsons


>"Commenting on the benefits of new legislation Fred Shaw, Compton
>NAACP Branch President said, The Child Medication Safety Act will
>help restore the partnership between parents and teachers, which has
>been harmed by teachers being forced to act as mental health
>clinicians.
>
>Parents need their rights safeguarded so they can make informed
>decisions on the health and educational needs of their children".
>
>You have some problem with that?
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Joe Parsons
 
"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote
> > > It is not idle conjecture -- it is from a survey conducted by a big
> > > teacher's union. You can find it here.
> > > http://www.aft.org/research/salary/home.htm

> > You should note that we were discussing STARTING salaries, a salient

point
> I
> > overlooked.

>
> Teachers are paid based on seniority and tenure, not merit. So
> starting salaries are a lot lower than average salaries. If you want
> to compare teachers to plumbers or some other profession, you
> need to take that into account.
>
> > > And the teachers get paid no matter what happens. Here is a story
> > > about a California teacher who is sitting in jail, and still

collecting
> > > his $74,516 a year salary!
> > > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6698027.htm

> > He should not be teaching, period. However, this proves nothing

regarding
> > the issues at hand. Just one of your typical slams against the Gubmnt.

>
> Plumbers do not collect salary while sitting in jail. One of the fringe
> benefits of teaching is that you can be a real goof-off once you get

tenure.
>

<sarcasm>
Oh, yeah, sure. Kids behave quietly and score well on standardized tests
for tenured teachers who goof off.
</sarcasm>

Jim Wayne
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Jeff <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Marko Proberto" <[email protected]> wrote
>> > > It is not idle conjecture -- it is from a survey conducted by a big
>> > > teacher's union. You can find it here.
>> > > http://www.aft.org/research/salary/home.htm
>> > You should note that we were discussing STARTING salaries, a salient

>point
>> I
>> > overlooked.


>> Teachers are paid based on seniority and tenure, not merit. So
>> starting salaries are a lot lower than average salaries. If you want
>> to compare teachers to plumbers or some other profession, you
>> need to take that into account.


>> > > And the teachers get paid no matter what happens. Here is a story
>> > > about a California teacher who is sitting in jail, and still

>collecting
>> > > his $74,516 a year salary!
>> > > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6698027.htm
>> > He should not be teaching, period. However, this proves nothing

>regarding
>> > the issues at hand. Just one of your typical slams against the Gubmnt.


>> Plumbers do not collect salary while sitting in jail. One of the fringe
>> benefits of teaching is that you can be a real goof-off once you get

>tenure.


>Except that teachers are fired for incompetence. And, these days, may good
>teachers are laid off because of lack of money.


Few teachers are fired for incompetence; in fact, except
for coaches, who may or may not be incompetent if their
teams do not do well, teachers with tenure are less likely
to be fired for low standards or not covering material than
tor just about any other reason. There are likely to be
major complaints by parents if teachers cover "too much",
and they are listened to, but when parents complain that
there is too little covered, or that the children already
know the material, rarely is anything done.

Seniority generally determines who will be fired if there is
not enough money, not competence.


--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
[email protected] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558