650B update - Its coming!

Joe Bernard said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Joe Bernard <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It seems to be my week for explaining myself. I bought this frame
> from Rivendell in 1996. At that time all the All-Rounders came
> with 26" wheels; later on these wheels were only used on smaller
> frames and 700C wheels were used on the larger frames. It was my
> mountain bike for several years (hence the choice of this frame
> rather than a road frame) and has been converted into my primary
> bike for brevets and touring. You can see the bike here:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/tour2000.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I use the Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 which has been an excellent
> tire so far.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> - Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And The Hobbit says [again], 650B is for smallish frames with fat
tires and fenders without a lot of toe-clip overlap for people who
know the truth: 26" wheels are slow on pavement.

Quoted message said:

Until I got the Paselas, I've have agreed with you but no longer. I
tried a bunch of different tires over the past 11 years and found that
my average speeds were about 1 mph slower over the same rolling to hilly
routes as on my 700C bikes at the same perceived effort. With the
Paselas there is no difference according to my cycle computers
(calibrated by roll-out). The All-Rounder rolls just as well on these
tires as my road bikes with 700 x 25s.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Well then, Ozark's got it all worked out and I'm an idiot. That's OK,
I'm married. I'm used to it. Ozark wins again!-

Now available: "Life as a Zero Sum Game" - by Joe Bernard, with a
special introduction by the Pied Piper of Bicycle Hooey, Grant Petersen

John said:

On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > > still me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > >this rather surprising assertion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > Every hardware store should have them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
cripe's sake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > and shellacking bar tape.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> these things. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
the bowels of Alabama.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-

Quoted message said:

One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

Quoted message said:

650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?

Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory_ID=5425

Moreover, Performance offers several 26" road tires that they call
"city" tires from different mfrs including Michelin, Continental,
GEAX, and of course its own Forte brand.

Note, Gaerlan, gtgtandems and Sheldon Brown still offer 26" Avocet
tires for those who are still interested.

bfd said:

John said:

On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > > > still me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > Every hardware store should have them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> cripe's sake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > and shellacking bar tape.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > these things. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> the bowels of Alabama.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

Quoted message said:

A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?

Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...

Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
needed! ;-)

Quoted message said:

Moreover, Performance offers several 26" road tires that they call
"city" tires from different mfrs including Michelin, Continental,
GEAX, and of course its own Forte brand.

Note, Gaerlan, gtgtandems and Sheldon Brown still offer 26" Avocet
tires for those who are still interested.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Jul 10, 11:45 am, bfd <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Quoted message said:

Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

Quoted message said:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...

Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
needed! ;-)

I really like that tire a lot. It rolls nicely like a 650B, but
without the twine getting all caught up in your spokes. The ST/K
version is $13 with a kevlar belt--which *does* seem to prevent flats--
at least the ones around here.

Ozark Bicycle said:

bfd said:

On Jul 9, 8:25 am, John <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > > > > still me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > Every hardware store should have them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > cripe's sake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > and shellacking bar tape.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > these things. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > the bowels of Alabama.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

Quoted message said:

Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?

Quoted message said:

Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Quoted message said:

Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

Quoted message said:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...

Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
needed! ;-)

I wouldn't call buying a $14 tire "paying-through-the-nose".
ie. 584mm Panaracer Col de la Vie

However, I imagine the price of 584mm tires could rise exponentially
if all decent tires of this size were discontinued; similar to 622mm
Mavic MA2 rims and 622mm tan walled Avocet FasGrip tires.

John said:

On Jul 10, 1:13 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Jul 10, 11:45 am, bfd <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 9, 8:25 am, John <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > > > > > still me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > > Every hardware store should have them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > > things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > > cripe's sake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > > and shellacking bar tape.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > > these things. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > > the bowels of Alabama.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> > use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> > benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> > pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...

Quoted message said:

Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
needed! ;-)

I wouldn't call buying a $14 tire "paying-through-the-nose".
ie. 584mm Panaracer Col de la Vie

No, the 584mm Panaracer CdlV is priced well. However, it is my
understanding that the CdlV tire did not test well in the Vintage
Bicycle Quarterly tire test. Note, the two Rivendell 650B tires also
didn't test well. Further, there were some/many on the ibob list who
said it wasn't very responsive.

The 650B tire that did shine was the Mitsuboshi Trimline, which I
believed retailed for something like $30-35 each. However, that tire
was discontinued. Go figure.

Many on the ibob list have stated that the new *hot* 650B tire is the
584x30 or 32 Gran Bois. Supposedly, it has a very low rolling
resistance and has been tested to be *as fast* as the 700x23 tires
tested. However, two things about this tire. First, it is priced at
about $50 each, not exactly a bargain. Further, at 30 or 32mm wide,
its not as fat as the CdlV or the now discontinued Mitsuboshi Trimline
which I believer were both 35-38mm wide.

So, does anyone know if this *fast* Gran Bois tire provide the same
legendary comfort that 650B is famous for?

John said:

On Jul 10, 1:13 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Jul 10, 11:45 am, bfd <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 9, 8:25 am, John <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > > > > > still me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > > Every hardware store should have them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > > things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > > cripe's sake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > > and shellacking bar tape.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > > these things. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > > the bowels of Alabama.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> > use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> > benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> > pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...

Quoted message said:

Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
needed! ;-)

I wouldn't call buying a $14 tire "paying-through-the-nose".
ie. 584mm Panaracer Col de la Vie

However, I imagine the price of 584mm tires could rise exponentially
if all decent tires of this size were discontinued; similar to 622mm
Mavic MA2 rims and 622mm tan walled Avocet FasGrip tires.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Seeing as how this thread started with 650B on MTBs, I have a
question. I think this wheel is good slightly-smaller alternative to
700c, but, what's the point in the dirt? I don't like 26" for road
riding, but, it's fine off road. MTB frames are smaller than their
road counterparts and I think must be easier to design around smaller
wheels. What's the advantage of 650 or, for that matter, 29ers?

John said:

On Jul 10, 1:13 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Jul 10, 11:45 am, bfd <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 9, 8:25 am, John <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > > > > > still me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > > Every hardware store should have them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > > things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > > cripe's sake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > > and shellacking bar tape.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > > these things. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > > the bowels of Alabama.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> > use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> > benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> > pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...

Quoted message said:

Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
needed! ;-)

I wouldn't call buying a $14 tire "paying-through-the-nose".
ie. 584mm Panaracer Col de la Vie

Have you bought that tire for $14 from a shop that "special ordered"
it for you? Not many shops, AFAICT (exceptions exist, of course),
stock 650B *anything*.

In Hobbitville, they want $28 and up for 650B tires and - this is
interesting - they note that "Bike shops don't generally stock them
[650B tires] and most bike people haven't even heard of them." Doesn't
sound like an easily/generally available item to me.

http://tinyurl.com/8x658

or:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/8x658

Quoted message said:

bfd said:

John said:

On Jul 10, 1:13 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 10, 11:45 am, bfd <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Jul 9, 8:25 am, John <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > > > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > > > > > > still me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > > > Every hardware store should have them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > > > things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > > > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > > > cripe's sake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > > > and shellacking bar tape.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > > > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > > > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > > > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > > > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > > > these things. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > > > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > > > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > > > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > > > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > > > the bowels of Alabama.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > > > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> > > use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> > > benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> > > pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> > also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
> Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
> worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
> been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
> discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
> performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
> slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
> current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
needed! ;-)

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't call buying a $14 tire "paying-through-the-nose".
ie. 584mm Panaracer Col de la Vie

No, the 584mm Panaracer CdlV is priced well. However, it is my
understanding that the CdlV tire did not test well in the Vintage
Bicycle Quarterly tire test. Note, the two Rivendell 650B tires also
didn't test well. Further, there were some/many on the ibob list who
said it wasn't very responsive.

The 650B tire that did shine was the Mitsuboshi Trimline, which I
believed retailed for something like $30-35 each. However, that tire
was discontinued. Go figure.

Many on the ibob list have stated that the new *hot* 650B tire is the
584x30 or 32 Gran Bois. Supposedly, it has a very low rolling
resistance and has been tested to be *as fast* as the 700x23 tires
tested. However, two things about this tire. First, it is priced at
about $50 each, not exactly a bargain. Further, at 30 or 32mm wide,
its not as fat as the CdlV or the now discontinued Mitsuboshi Trimline
which I believer were both 35-38mm wide.

So, does anyone know if this *fast* Gran Bois tire provide the same
legendary comfort that 650B is famous for?-

Legend: an unverified story handed down from earlier times; a
romanticized or popularized myth.

http://tinyurl.com/2toa8h

or;

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2toa8h

Right on target!

Ozark Bicycle said:

John said:

On Jul 10, 1:13 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 10, 11:45 am, bfd <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Jul 9, 8:25 am, John <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > > > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > > > > > > still me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > > > Every hardware store should have them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > > > things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > > > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > > > cripe's sake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > > > and shellacking bar tape.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > > > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > > > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > > > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > > > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > > > these things. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > > > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > > > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > > > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > > > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > > > the bowels of Alabama.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > > > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> > > use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> > > benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> > > pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> > also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
> Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
> worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
> been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
> discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
> performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
> slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
> current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
needed! ;-)

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't call buying a $14 tire "paying-through-the-nose".
ie. 584mm Panaracer Col de la Vie

Have you bought that tire for $14 from a shop that "special ordered"
it for you?

No, I haven't. I thought we were comparing prices from online,
discount sources.

Quoted message said:

Not many shops, AFAICT (exceptions exist, of course),
stock 650B *anything*.

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

In Hobbitville, they want $28 and up for 650B tires and - this is
interesting - they note that "Bike shops don't generally stock them
[650B tires] and most bike people haven't even heard of them." Doesn't
sound like an easily/generally available item to me.

http://tinyurl.com/8x658

or:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/8x658

Your right in that it is an inconvenience obtaining rims and tires in
the U.S. if you decide to use a wheel size different than 622mm or
559mm. Some, who often order parts online anyways, consider the
inconvenience trivial. Perhaps they just stock up on supplies while
they last.

John said:

On Jul 10, 2:42 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Jul 10, 1:00 pm, John <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 10, 1:13 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 11:45 am, bfd <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > On Jul 9, 8:25 am, John <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > On Jul 9, 10:51 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 9, 9:38 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > On Jul 9, 8:54 am, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Jul 8, 9:05 pm, Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > In article <[email hidden]>,
> > > > > > > > still me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > > > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:54:40 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > > > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > > > >They don't stock M6 bolts? Maybe you should stop in and verify
> > > > > > > > > >this rather surprising assertion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > > > M6? Yes. They have them in a lovely shade of red mostly. Might go
> > > > > > > > > nicely with some frames. But, I thought the Riv bolts were allen
> > > > > > > > > head on one side, recessed nut on the other. That suggests a need
> > > > > > > > > for a bolt with the "correct" size head.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > > Standard Allen bolt and standard hex nut.
> > > > > > > > Every hardware store should have them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > Um, how many binder bolts have you broken?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > Two. But that *is* in 40+ years of riding bikes. One was a Simplex
> > > > > > style bolt, the other was one of those newfangled collar things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > The classic style is available at any shop for $5.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > Which is great, if you break one near a bike shop. Outside of American
> > > > > > and European bike shops, standard seat post bolts are weird nonstandard
> > > > > > things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > You can use any old bolt and a couple washers to get you to the next
> > > > > bike shop. It won't look good--but it's just a pinch collar, for
> > > > > cripe's sake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > > What an odd thing to "standardize" when you promote weird tire sizes
> > > > > > > and shellacking bar tape.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > The majority of tires Rivendell sells are 700 x 28 mm. I didn't know
> > > > > > that was a weird size. 650B has been an existing standard for nearly
> > > > > > 100 years, used in France, England, Sweden and other places. Just not
> > > > > > much in the US which is, thankfully, not the center of the universe
> > > > > > despite our pretensions to the contrary. You might think it's weird,
> > > > > > but in a fair amount of the world it isn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > It's weird. Look, I rode Swedish 28" roadsters and Monark folders with
> > > > > who knows what size tires when I was young--they were common in
> > > > > Sweden. Here such sizes are odd. But your argument is about as empty
> > > > > as promoting Dunlop valves, because they're simple technology beloved
> > > > > by a billion people in Asia and the subcontinent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > > More people in the world use the 28 x 1 1/2 (635 mm) size than use the
> > > > > > 559, 622 or 630 mm sizes. In much of the world your 700C wheels would
> > > > > > be considered weird. Better stay home so you don't have to worry about
> > > > > > these things. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > What a non-argument. If I was to set off on a world expedition, I'd
> > > > > simply use a 26" wheel bike. Such tires are available pretty much
> > > > > anywhere roadster tires are. If I was touring Europe, I'd stick to
> > > > > 700c. In the US, I'd not feel uncomfortable using even 27" wheels--
> > > > > because even Wally World will sell you a $10 27" tire when you're in
> > > > > the bowels of Alabama.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > > 650B on a new build--by choice, instead of simply choosing a frame
> > > > > that can accomodate fat 700c or even 27", is pointless pretense.-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > One could also make a case for 559mm/26" on a smallish frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > 650B on a new build for a bicycle sold by a North American vendor for
> > > > use primarily in North America is a classic case of niche marketing to
> > > > benefit the vendor at the long term expense of the end user. Seems
> > > > pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > > People might be interested enough to call around to 2/3/4/5+ local
> > > > bike shops to see if they have any 650B in stock (or even know what
> > > > you're asking about!). Sure, they can be "special ordered", but that's
> > > > usually both an ordeal and an invitation to pay through the nose.
> > > > OTOH, any decent LBS will have a variety of both 700C and 26" wheels
> > > > and tires *in stock*. And, of course, they can be easily ordered on
> > > > line at competitive discounted prices directly by the end user.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > A cyclist who rides a smaller frame, designed around 559mm tires, will
> > > also not easily find a decent tire *in stock* for road use.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Agree, for years I've been a big fan of Avocet tires. Their Avocet
> > Fasgrip City 26x1.25 is a great rolling tire. However, Avocet has the
> > worst distribution policy of any company and finding them has always
> > been a challenged. Further, it appears that Avocet has decided to
> > discontinue its 26" tires. What to do?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Looking around, I found a tire that offers probably 85-90% of the
> > performance of the above Avocet tire, at 1/3 the price!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Check out the Performance Forte City tire in 26x1.25, it is a true
> > slick tire that seems to roll "as well" as the Avocet and at the
> > current sale price of $8 each, regular price is $12, its a bargain:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=15304&subcategory...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Not surprisingly, Nashbar has that same tire under their 'brand", too.
> Item NS-SBT in 26 x 1.25. Sometimes Nashbar is cheaper, sometimes
> Performance - it pays to check both, and generally, you'll pay an
> average of about $10. No pay-through-the-nose special orders
> needed! ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't call buying a $14 tire "paying-through-the-nose".
ie. 584mm Panaracer Col de la Vie

Quoted message said:

Have you bought that tire for $14 from a shop that "special ordered"
it for you?

No, I haven't. I thought we were comparing prices from online,
discount sources.

Ah. My mistake, then. Mea culpa. And, yes, $14 is a good price for
what I assume (Heine and the iBobs not withstanding) is a decent tire.
What's the source?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not many shops, AFAICT (exceptions exist, of course),
stock 650B *anything*.

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

In Hobbitville, they want $28 and up for 650B tires and - this is
interesting - they note that "Bike shops don't generally stock them
[650B tires] and most bike people haven't even heard of them." Doesn't
sound like an easily/generally available item to me.

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/8x658

Quoted message said:

or:

Quoted message said:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/8x658

Your right in that it is an inconvenience obtaining rims and tires in
the U.S. if you decide to use a wheel size different than 622mm or
559mm. Some, who often order parts online anyways, consider the
inconvenience trivial. Perhaps they just stock up on supplies while
they last.-

Ya know, if there was a tangible advantage to using 650B on a new bike
intended for use in North America, the inconvenience might make some
sense. But, AFAICT, the tangible advantage does not exist. Converting
an old, narrow clearance bike, etc., is a different matter.

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Tim McNamara said:

Exactly. But people do, lots of the time. You'd think Grant Petersen
was personally inoculating mosquitos with West Nile virus.

He is?

The same way Jobst Brandt eats children.

/hides.

--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

Luigi de Guzman said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Exactly. But people do, lots of the time. You'd think Grant Petersen
was personally inoculating mosquitos with West Nile virus.

Quoted message said:

He is?

The same way Jobst Brandt eats children.

Roasted in a 350F oven, 15 minutes per pound and served au jus?

Ozark Bicycle said:

Ya know, if there was a tangible advantage to using 650B on a new bike
intended for use in North America, the inconvenience might make some
sense. But, AFAICT, the tangible advantage does not exist.

The problem with 650B is trying to get the BIG mfrs to adopt it. If
for some reason they do, the movement will take place.

However, its very unlikely for a couple of reason. First, most BIG
mfrs sell through local bike shops/dealers. Trying to convince these
dealers to adopt another size is not going to be easy. The shops will
have to spend additional resources to stock yet another rim/tire/tube
size. Further, it will have to spend additional time trying to explain
the size to the clueless general public.

Remember, the ibob market Grant/Rivendell appeals to is usually one
that is fairly knowledgable about bicycles. Although in one Riv
Reader, Grant did get a woman to "update" her old bike with newer
parts at the tune of $900!!!!

In contrast, the LBS sell to those who don't have a clue and need alot
of explaining. Another tire size is not going to go over well with the
dealers.

Quoted message said:

Converting an old, narrow clearance bike, etc., is a different matter.-

This is where 650B actually makes some kind of sense. However, this is
not a market for the BIG mfrs, although some shops/dealers may be able
to make some money doing this type of conversion service.

Again, the problem with 650B is trying to get some kind of momentum in
the marketplace. IF the 27FIVE logo is a hit with mtbers, maybe that
will be the market.

Of course, mtbers have different needs then road riders, so 650B may
not translate well. i.e., mtbers want disc brakes and shocks. Road
650Bs, especially ibobers, will want canti-brakes or long reach brakes
and no shocks. For mtb, ibobers will want a mtb bike with rigid fork
(look for the new RIvendell Bombadil coming soon) and regular canti-
lever brakes.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> Exactly. But people do, lots of the time. You'd think Grant Petersen
> was personally inoculating mosquitos with West Nile virus.

Quoted message said:

He is?

The same way Jobst Brandt eats children.

Roasted in a 350F oven, 15 minutes per pound and served au jus?

Please. That's 177 C, 30 minutes per kilo. Serve with a good Bordeaux.

-Luigi

whose sense of humor (sometimes) holds up well to flames.
--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

Luigi de Guzman said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:15:10 -0700, Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email hidden]>,
> Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Exactly. But people do, lots of the time. You'd think Grant Petersen
>> was personally inoculating mosquitos with West Nile virus.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> He is?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The same way Jobst Brandt eats children.

Quoted message said:

Roasted in a 350F oven, 15 minutes per pound and served au jus?

Please. That's 177 C, 30 minutes per kilo. Serve with a good Bordeaux.

A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava
beans and a nice Chianti. - Silence of the Lamb

In article <[email hidden]>,

Joe Bernard said:

Seeing as how this thread started with 650B on MTBs, I have a
question. I think this wheel is good slightly-smaller alternative to
700c, but, what's the point in the dirt? I don't like 26" for road
riding, but, it's fine off road. MTB frames are smaller than their
road counterparts and I think must be easier to design around smaller
wheels. What's the advantage of 650 or, for that matter, 29ers?

I'm not convinced that 29ers have an advantage and some testing I recall
reading (maybe cyclingnews.com) found that riders were slower on the 29"
wheels than the standard 26" wheels. I've not ridden 650B offroad so I
don't have a comparison.

I always found my 700 x 28 cyclo-cross tires to be more than adequate
for off-road riding locally. We don't have epically gnarly trails
around here- even the most challenging trails are pretty tame.

bfd said:

On Jul 10, 12:18 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Ya know, if there was a tangible advantage to using 650B on a new bike
intended for use in North America, the inconvenience might make some
sense. But, AFAICT, the tangible advantage does not exist.

The problem with 650B is trying to get the BIG mfrs to adopt it. If
for some reason they do, the movement will take place.

But, what is the point of "the movement"? What is the point of this
oddball wheel standard on a new road bike intended for use in North
America? What benefit is conferred?

Quoted message said:

However, its very unlikely for a couple of reason.

First and foremost, it is pointless.

Quoted message said:

First, most BIG
mfrs sell through local bike shops/dealers. Trying to convince these
dealers to adopt another size is not going to be easy. The shops will
have to spend additional resources to stock yet another rim/tire/tube
size. Further, it will have to spend additional time trying to explain
the size to the clueless general public.

Remember, the ibob market Grant/Rivendell appeals to is usually one
that is fairly knowledgable about bicycles.

Ha!

Quoted message said:

Although in one Riv
Reader, Grant did get a woman to "update" her old bike with newer
parts at the tune of $900!!!!

In contrast, the LBS sell to those who don't have a clue and need alot
of explaining. Another tire size is not going to go over well with the
dealers.

Quoted message said:

Converting an old, narrow clearance bike, etc., is a different matter.-

This is where 650B actually makes some kind of sense. However, this is
not a market for the BIG mfrs, although some shops/dealers may be able
to make some money doing this type of conversion service.

Again, the problem with 650B is trying to get some kind of momentum in
the marketplace. IF the 27FIVE logo is a hit with mtbers, maybe that
will be the market.

Of course, mtbers have different needs then road riders, so 650B may
not translate well. i.e., mtbers want disc brakes and shocks. Road
650Bs, especially ibobers, will want canti-brakes or long reach brakes
and no shocks. For mtb, ibobers will want a mtb bike with rigid fork
(look for the new RIvendell Bombadil coming soon) and regular canti-
lever brakes.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Exactly. But people do, lots of the time. You'd think Grant Petersen
> was personally inoculating mosquitos with West Nile virus.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He is?

Quoted message said:

The same way Jobst Brandt eats children.

Roasted in a 350F oven, 15 minutes per pound and served au jus?

I always wondered about his collection of little shoes.

landotter said:

On Jul 10, 2:33 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Jul 10, 2:25 pm, Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:15:10 -0700, Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email hidden]>,
> Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Exactly. But people do, lots of the time. You'd think Grant Petersen
>> was personally inoculating mosquitos with West Nile virus.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> He is?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The same way Jobst Brandt eats children.

Quoted message said:

Roasted in a 350F oven, 15 minutes per pound and served au jus?

I always wondered about his collection of little shoes.-

And the lil' step stool in front of the oven?