650C vs. 700C Wheels



larrynipon

New Member
Sep 17, 2003
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I just bought my wife a WSD Trek. It comes with a shorter crank, and 650 wheels. The question is...is this slower than a 700C setup? She feels she's getting beaten on the flats and descents, but is climbing better. Subjective, or based on physics logic? By the way, PLEASE post replies based on what you KNOW. Conjecture might cause a divorce... :eek:
 
Same issue with spinning a small gear fast versus a big gear slower. For every revolution of her crank and every wheel revolution she will not go as far as someone with a 700c wheel and longer crank. Couple things she could do is run a bigger chainring up front and a different cassette ratio.
 
capwater said:
Same issue with spinning a small gear fast versus a big gear slower. For every revolution of her crank and every wheel revolution she will not go as far as someone with a 700c wheel and longer crank. Couple things she could do is run a bigger chainring up front and a different cassette ratio.
Crank length has nothig to do with it assuming equal RPM.
 
larrynipon said:
I just bought my wife a WSD Trek. It comes with a shorter crank, and 650 wheels. The question is...is this slower than a 700C setup? She feels she's getting beaten on the flats and descents, but is climbing better. Subjective, or based on physics logic? By the way, PLEASE post replies based on what you KNOW. Conjecture might cause a divorce... :eek:

If everything else in the comparison of 700C to 650 wheels (including tires and tubes) are the same then:
1. 650 wheels are lighter (helps in climbing and accelerating by small amounts)
2. 650 wheels are more aerodynamic
3. 650 wheels are stiffer
4. 650 wheels require higher gearing to get the same cadence
5. On normal pavement rolling resistance is higher

The idea of WSD is to improve her position on the bicycle for ergonomics. Her aerodynamic position and ergonomic position are the 2 most important issues.
Are the fit issues already cared for?
 
Crank length must contribute. A shorter crank means the circumference of 1 reveolution is shorter on the shorter crank, therefore the time taken to complete 1 revolution will be proportionately less.
 
larrynipon said:
Crank length must contribute. A shorter crank means the circumference of 1 reveolution is shorter on the shorter crank, therefore the time taken to complete 1 revolution will be proportionately less.

Crank length is part of a fitting and contributes to many different things.
Yes, a shorter crank means the diameter of the pedal circle is less. However the time to complete a revolution isn't necessarily less.
It may be that the rider is used to a certain cadence and pedal circle diameter. Even Lance had to train himself for a higher pedaling cadence.

A crank with 5 mm less length usually means that the seat post is set 5 mm more extended from the seat tube. Since the seat tube is usually angled around 73 degrees, the result is the rider position is higher and further back.
If you make the crank shorter and don't adjust the position saddle for a new rider posistion, then the effect on power output and even the long term health/comfort for the rider's knees is negative.

I go back to my suggestion/question about fitting.
Riders that make changes for a better fit also need time and training to take advantage of the "improved" position.

I am not defending Trek's WSD crank arm length choice, because they may not be ideally fitted for each rider who selects the frame size.
You may need to adjust the stem length and height as well as the saddle position on the seatpost.

What fitting system does your Trek dealer use?
 
daveornee said:
If everything else in the comparison of 700C to 650 wheels (including tires and tubes) are the same then:
1. ....
5. On normal pavement rolling resistance is higher


Not a really important factor. As it's explained on http://sjscycles.com, smaller wheels means the tire is flattened under the rider's weight in a wider circle as opposed to a narrower oblong ellipse. The main difference is that a 650 wheel or an even smaller 26" wheel steers more easily than a 700c wheel. Minute difference, I should add.
There is another factor: a larger wheel rides smoother on obstacles such as cracks, potholes and the like. Ths has been an argument used by the proponents of "29-inch" MTB wheels (which are really 700c wheels with large tires).


Going up and going down

Climbing ability depends on muscular strength and muscle/weight ratio, whereas speed on the flats and especially on descents depends on air drag. A vey light person will be the last in descents.

Gearing vs wheel size
No difference once you adapt gearing. Or to give an example, 52/27 with a 27" wheel is the same as 52/26 with a 26" wheel (nominal sizes taken here for the sake of simplicity). Use http://sheldonbrown.com/gears to compute gearings; the same development should give out the same ratio.

Crank size
That's where issues become more complex.
Physics 101 (yes, I even taught the course) would tell you that you have more power with 175-mm cranks than with 165-mm cranks. Specifically, if you apply a given force (say 100 N, which is roughly 22 lb) on the pedal, you will get 17.5 N-m torque vs 16.5 N-m, hence more pull on the chain, more force up the hill, etc.

However, biomecanics go against it and tell you that there is a relatively small range of effective position for the leg. So if you use 250-mm cranks (extreme, I know), there will be a very limited angle of the cranks under which you would be able to apply the 100 N force (or whatever your legs are able to supply). The longer the cranks, the more limited is the angle through which one is able to crank, and the more "dead rotation" one has to do. Long cranks also mean that one's knees will often try to apply pressure in less than ideal position.

At the other extreme, if you use 125-mm cranks (available on a few junior bikes), your legs and knees will always be in the ideal position, available to output maximum force. This is why proponents of short cranks tell you they pedal in a "better circle" with short cranks. However, the cranks will be so short that you won't be able to apply any real torque.

Combining both factors (longest crank for maximum torque vs shortest crank for ideal position throughout the circle) is at best an empirical science. There are a few formulas either based on frame size, leg length or upper leg length. The latter formulae seem more precise, but again experience is better than formulae.
 
larrynipon said:
Crank length must contribute. A shorter crank means the circumference of 1 reveolution is shorter on the shorter crank, therefore the time taken to complete 1 revolution will be proportionately less.
I said assuming equal RPM. That's the part that matters.Don't make rocket science out of it.