7 Speed front derailleur compatibility with 9 speed chain and cassette?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by benwarren, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. benwarren

    benwarren New Member

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    Hi,

    I had an incident yesterday which included damage to my brake levers and also top mounted shifters.
    I have been thinking for a while of upgrading the shifting system to Shimano Sora 3500 9 speed triple shifters, and before anyone says, no I can't afford anything better, i'm 16 and this is stretching my budget as it is. My question is, as I upgrade to a 9 speed cassette and chain, will I need to also replace my (what I assume to be) 7 speed front derailleur? The derailleur only has the words Shimano from what I can see, and I don't fancy taking it apart.

    Basically, to upgrade to 9spd will I need to replace anything around the front chain ring?

    Thanks in advance
     
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  2. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Paging Alfeng! Paging Mr. Alfeng! Please pick up the shimaNO white courtesy phone!

    Alf will give you the verdict, but I would guess going to a 9-speed setup from a 7-speed will require a new 9-speed crankset. The front derailleur 'might' make the swap, the rear I doubt would be compatible.
     
  3. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    According to Shimano, you will need the whole system: rear wheel with 8-/9-speed cassette body and 130mm spacing, 9-speed front and rear derailleurs, 9-speed cassette, and 9-speed cranks, and cable stops with in-line adjusters that fit the down tube. You and alf might be able to cobble something together with less, but you're on your own here.

    Potential problems are putting a 130 mm wheel in a frame with 126 mm spacing, making the narrow 9-speed chain work with wide chainrings and derailleur pulleys made for 5-, 6-, and 7-speed chains, making the wide 7-speed front derailleur cage work with the narrow 9-speed chain, and getting the 7-speed derailleurs to index properly with 9-speed shifters. Some of these problems might be insurmountable, and if they are surmountable, they come with caveats and workarounds that pro mechanics will simply not touch.

    I'm inclined to say that if your frame is made of steel and you can spread your chainstays to 130 mm and square the dropouts, you can make it work with the full kit I outlined in the first paragraph.

    On the other hand, I know of nincompoops who have squeezed 130 mm hubs into 126 mm frames and rationalized the ensuing hub damage, or who have re-spaced and re-dished 130 mm wheels to 126 mm and rationalized the instability of the extreme dish and the bike's incompatibility with any other manufactured wheel. And you might like the way your bike works, but if you don't, you're on your own.

    If the risks and consequences are acceptable, then by all means try it.
     
  4. benwarren

    benwarren New Member

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    Thanks for the feedback, I tested the hub on its own in my frame, and it fitted well, so thats not an issue, I will try just the cassette and chain, and give it a go, if it doesnt work, I will go from their.

    Thanks
     
  5. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Okay, okay ... I'm here, now ...

    FWIW. As per "the Party Line" as cited by oldbobcat, the OP will need to install a 9-speed Shimano front ROAD derailleur which is appropriate to his shifters (Flat Bar vs. Drop Bar ... top pull vs. bottom pull) if he hopes to successfully shift the chain between all three chainrings when he is done with this DIY project ...

    And, in lieu of a new crankset, he will want to install RAMPED-AND-PINNED chainrings to facilitate smooth shifting ...

    The rear derailleur may-or-may not index with the shifters ... more than likely, yes.

    Of course, if one opts for a pair of 10-speed CAMPAGNOLO shifters (11-speed Campagnolo shifters will probably work, too!!) then the change will be simple-and-sweet ...

    • BTW. I'm waiting for the day when oldbobcat actually tries the following BECAUSE he will inevitably become a preaching disciple rather than a disparager of the Campagnolo-Shimano combination!!!

    [​IMG]

    If bought on eBay and installed as a DIY project, a pair of Campagnolo shifters will be the least expensive option because ANY chainrings will do just fine & ANY cable-actuated front derailleur will also work ... a new pair of 10-speed Campagnolo shifters can be bought for ~$120 ... add cables & housing as necessary + simple hand tools which the OP may already have ...

    WHY PAY MORE?!?!

    As I have stated numerous times, the most time consuming part will involve un-wrapping & re-wrapping the handlebar tape.

    N.B. The "new" Campagnolo shifters require a T25 wrench which has a 4" shaft ... the older models use a 5mm Allen wrench (preferably with a 4" shaft) ...

    • T25 bits with 4" shafts are available (probably <$2) ...
    • in the past, only people who think that they can "speak Campagnolo" have expressed difficulty threading the cables into-and-through the shifters ...
    • BTW. I strongly recommend that you use brake cable housing for the derailleur cables because it will not collapse the way parallel stranded cable might (as remote a possibility as it may be) ... others have disagreed with me on this in the past.

    Of course, if the occasion arises, the Campagnolo shifters can migrate to the next bike.
     
  6. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    So we agree that the front derailleur is a wash and the rear derailleur might be. Cool. We're not that far off. I am concerned about rear hub spacing, though.

    Regarding cranks and chainrings, unless there is a reliable source of used 9-speed 130mm BCD ramped and pinned rings, it's almost cheaper and certainly less troublesome and risky to just buy a crankset--Sora or FSA Vero. The bottom bracket will be extra, but most of these old bikes that weren't scrupulously maintained need new bottom brackets anyway.

    And regarding Campy shifters, alf, I'm glad they make you happy. These days it's SRAM Force that's making me happy.

    Regarding using brake housing for shifters, here's my take: brake is stronger but shift is more longitudinally stable. Personally, I've never split shift housing to the point where it stopped working. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of bikes where this happened, usually because the housing run was too short, the user simply allowed the cable to rust and seize inside the housing, or the cable and housing hadn't been replaced in ten years. Also, I've happily used brake housing for non-indexed applications and places where I couldn't squeeze a proper shift housing ferrule.

    You guys take it from here. I'll butt out.
     
  7. benwarren

    benwarren New Member

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  8. benwarren

    benwarren New Member

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    Oh, and looking at the different options to purchase, braze on, clip on etc, what will I want?
     
  9. benwarren

    benwarren New Member

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    Okay, i looked up the meanings of clip on and braze on, i figured I need clip on, at a dia of 32mm, however that website has 28.6/31.8mm, why the slash? Sorry for being such an idiot, im new to bike mechanics :)
     
  10. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by oldbobcat [​IMG]

    So we agree that the front derailleur is a wash and the rear derailleur might be. Cool. We're not that far off. I am concerned about rear hub spacing, though.



    Apparently, the OP has addressed in another thread & he indicated that a SORA hub (130mm OLD) fits in his frame ...

    Originally Posted by oldbobcat [​IMG]

    Regarding cranks and chainrings, unless there is a reliable source of used 9-speed 130mm BCD ramped and pinned rings, it's almost cheaper and certainly less troublesome and risky to just buy a crankset--Sora or FSA Vero. The bottom bracket will be extra, but most of these old bikes that weren't scrupulously maintained need new bottom brackets anyway.




    Yes. I agree that a new crank would be cheaper in many cases AND easier than scrounging for an aftermarket, ramped chainring now that there seem to be fewer sources ...

    BUT, the beauty of Campagnolo shifters is that they work with ALL chainrings ...

    • until the re-engineering of the lastest-and-greatest 11-speed Campagnolo front derailleurs, 9-speed Shimano front derailleurs were better
    • with the Shimano front derailleur, ramping-and-pinning can't hurt and may be of infinitesimal benefit ...

    Originally Posted by oldbobcat [​IMG]

    And regarding Campy shifters, alf, I'm glad they make you happy. These days it's SRAM Force that's making me happy.



    Yes, I understand that the majority of people are happy with their SRAM shifters (even the adopters of original RED group with its dodgy front derailleur -- a case of what-you-don't-know-you-don't-know) ... but, I can almost guarantee that YOU (and almost everyone!) would be happier with Campagnolo shifters because they are (in the words of other's) "intuitive" ...

    At first, I did not know what what was meant by using that word until I realized the the chain echoed the rider's hand motion ... and so, I presume THAT is what they are referring to ... if not, it should be, IMO ...

    • that is, when you want to move the chain to a larger Chainring, you move the left shift paddle to the right ... to move the chain to a smaller Chainring, you press the thumb lever down ...
    • when you want to move the chain to a larger Cog, you move the right paddle ot the left ... to move the chain to a smaller Cog, you press the thumb lever down ...

    How great is that?!?

    And, while SRAM shifters may not be plagued with "dwell" the way Shimano shifters are, fatigue cannot result in a mis-shift with Campagnolo shifters.

    Originally Posted by oldbobcat [​IMG]

    Regarding using brake housing for shifters, here's my take: brake is stronger but shift is more longitudinally stable. Personally, I've never split shift housing to the point where it stopped working. On the other hand, I've seen plenty of bikes where this happened, usually because the housing run was too short, the user simply allowed the cable to rust and seize inside the housing, or the cable and housing hadn't been replaced in ten years. Also, I've happily used brake housing for non-indexed applications and places where I couldn't squeeze a proper shift housing ferrule.

    You guys take it from here. I'll butt out.


    As I stated in the past, I thought that the parallel stranded cable housing had been abandoned in the 70s ...

    • so, when it re-emerged (that is, I became that it was still around when Shimano included it with their STI shifters), I was willing to try it, but I find it to be more annoying than is worth the effort (that's just MY OPINION) ...
    • I would rather spend the time to deburr the ends of a coiled housing than deal with the inherent nuisance of parallel stranded cable housing ...
    • consequently, I generally only use the parallel stranded housing if-or-when I am dealing a new installation where the cable-set was included with the shifters.
     
  11. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    REMOVE your old front derailleur & read the information which is imprinted on the inside of the clamp ....

    • the slash in the "advertisement" probably means that it is a front derailleur which has a 31.8mm clamp + a shim which will allow you to use it on a frame which uses a front derailleur which has a 28.6mm clamp ...
    • put the shim in your "toolbox"
     
  12. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Hilarious.
     
  13. benwarren

    benwarren New Member

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    Okay, thanks a lot for your time and effort to help me :)
     
  14. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but according to your chart they won't work with SRAM derailleurs.
     
  15. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Ah, so your interest is piqued!?!

    FYI. Despite what Chris Juden's matrix suggests, apparently the 10-speed Campagnolo shifters can be used on 10-speed SRAM drivetrains ...

    • don't ask me how that can be ...

    Several years ago, before SRAM was able to provide bar end shifters, (at least) one team used 10-speed Campagnolo bar ends on their TT bikes ...

    And, the next year, Lennard Zinn reported successfully testing a pair of 10-speed Campagnolo shifters on an otherwise SRAM equipped bike.

    So, if-or-when your SRAM shifters buy-the-farm, you can try a pair of 10-speed Campagnolo shifters ...

    OR, you can try them & if you like them, then you can sell your SRAM shifters on eBay for the cost of the new Campagnolo shifters & you will have money left over for new cables & housing + fresh handlebar tape ... maybe, enough to buy other stuff, too!!!
     
  16. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Or you can use SRAM shifters with SRAM derailleurs and Shimano shifters with Shimano derailleurs, just as they were designed to be used, especially as there's no objective data that says Campy shifters work better.
     
    benwarren likes this.
  17. benwarren

    benwarren New Member

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    I have bought everything as shimano so far, all thats left for me to buy is the shifters, and I plan to purchase the sora 3500 9spd triple shifters, I'd much rather have something designed for use with my other parts if it means spending an extra £20 (on the website i found)
     
  18. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Clever Boy!

    Well, whether you are a prevaricating "Clever Boy" who thinks nothing of intentionally purveying misinformation or if you are a fool is probably open to debate ...

    While there may-or-may-not be any PUBLISHED DATA which is readily available, you can probably be classified as a fool if you think that Campagnolo, MicroShift, Shimano, and SRAM don't have "objective" in house data which compares the various shifters + other components which they make against those which other people make PLUS mixed combinations of the various components ...

    That is, 'I' am not the only person who has made comparative tests ...

    • regardless, it is certainly not in the interest of the the shills at the various cycling publications to indicate one product being better than another

    Wouldn't you (that's a generic "you") think that if the anecdotal complaints about the limitations regarding aspects of both Shimano's drivetrains & SRAM's drivetrains were tabulated vs. complaints about Campagnolo's drivetrains then someone could certainly know where to focus their initial attention when testing the limitations and/or capabilities of this-or-that component within a given group of components?

    If memory serves me then almost unbelievably at the most recent Sea Otter (2013), I believe that Shimano's North American technical rep actually tried a 10-speed Shimano wheel in their 11-speed drivetrain (or, was it the other way around?) and found that it shifted well ... and, revealed it ... either intentionally to assure potential buyers that there was inherent backward compatibility or (less likely) unintentionally ...

    • I'll bet anything that the boys in Osaka made those tests + ongoing test AND MANY OTHER comparative tests a long time ago!
    • ditto for the boys in Vicenza

    So, what motivates your misleading comments (in this thread & elsewhere)?

    • Are you afraid that the exclusivity of having a Campagnolo equipped bike will be diluted if people start to use Campagnolo shifters with their non-Campagnolo drivetrains?
    • Or, are you a prevaricator?
    • Or, are you a fool?
     
  19. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    I'm not making misleading statements. You have yet to offer anything that indicates why Shimano or SRAM perform sub-optimally with their respective systems compared to Campy shifters with those systems. All you've offered are your suspect opinions; yet you continue to promote your opinions as if they are fact. Sadly, there are no facts in evidence that support your Campy shifter recommendations. None. People come here and ask simple questions, and what they get from you are verbose instructions on backyard mashup projects albeit instructions with colorful fonts and varied font types. Whether or not Campy, Shimano, and/or SRAM have done in house testing of junkyard projects isn't clear. What is clear is that it's unlikely that you have access to that information, and your Rube Goldberg solutions for neophytes asking questions are probably the last thing neophytes--or anyone for that matter--want. It should be noted that your anecdotal doting is not data collection.
     
  20. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by alienator [​IMG]

    I'm not making misleading statements. You have yet to offer anything that indicates why Shimano or SRAM perform sub-optimally with their respective systems compared to Campy shifters with those systems. All you've offered are your suspect opinions; yet you continue to promote your opinions as if they are fact. Sadly, there are no facts in evidence that support your Campy shifter recommendations. None.

    People come here and ask simple questions, and what they get from you are verbose instructions on backyard mashup projects albeit instructions with colorful fonts and varied font types. Whether or not Campy, Shimano, and/or SRAM have done in house testing of junkyard projects isn't clear. What is clear is that it's unlikely that you have access to that information, and your Rube Goldberg solutions for neophytes asking questions are probably the last thing neophytes--or anyone for that matter--want.

    It should be noted that your anecdotal doting is not data collection.

    ACK!

    Okay, Troll, here is my reply to you ...

    • before you bother to protest, in case you didn't already know, YOU are possibly the quintessential "Internet Troll" ... take a look at your posts which are frequently comprised of meaningless heckling
    • otherwise, how do you explain the "Hilarious" remark earlier in this thread?
    • Who knew that there were Lebanese Trolls?!?

    Sadly, your denial is hollow ...

    And, your earlier statement was indeed intentionally false & misleading in the apparent hope that those who don't know better will believe you if you go unchallenged ...

    BECAUSE haven't you anecdotally declared that you once (?) tried both Shimano & SRAM but did not find them to your liking & that is the reason you choose to use Campagnolo shifters?

    Really?

    So, is it because YOU can't tell the difference that you therefore think that no one else can tell the difference?

    • unfortunately, the benefit of the better Shimano Groups (specifically Dura Ace & Ultegra) can probably be attributed to the ramping-and-pinning on the chainrings because if you were more knowledgeable, then you would know that in the past (I don't know about the past three years) the 105 chainrings are physically the same as Tiagra chainrings & probably the same as Sora chainrings, or vice versa ... so, the benefit of upgrading within the Shimano line is mostly cosmetic (nothing wrong with THAT as a reason) with reduced weight & possibly extra Cogs on the Cassette & sometimes better bearings
    • the simple answer is that Shimano-to-Shimano is generally not an upgrade unless the individual is willing to pony up for a Dura Ace or Ultegra group ... or, it might be an upgrade if their current rear derailleur is the Tourney-level
    • the simple answer is that Shimano-to-SRAM may be an upgrade for rear shifting (if you like the double-tap mechanism) if a person has the budget for a wholesale exchange of components; but, the front shifting may not be better is it easier to remove a Shimano shifter & install a SRAM shifter than to remove a Shimano shifter & install a Campagnolo shifter? the only person I know who has declared that he had a problem with installing V3 Campagnolo shifters pretends that he can "speak Campagnolo" at his shop ...
    • FYI. Other than needing a T25 wrench which has a 4" shaft, V3 shifters are actually EASIER (as in, the installation is "faster") to install than either V1 or V2 shifters.
    [*] the simple answer which you are seeking is that changing Shimano-shifters-to-Campagnolo-shifters is indeed a simpler upgrade than changing to either a better Shimano Group or to a SRAM group because the Campagnolo shifters benefit BOTH the front & rear shifting for a minimal cost vs. the cost of a shifters, derailleurs, chainrings-or-crankset, and possibly a new chain if the bike does not already have a 10-speed chain if one opts for a Shimano or SRAM "upgrade" of their components ...

    YOU DO THE MATH!

    Strange how ... SANS EVIDENCE ... you apparently managed to draw the conclusion that all the Groups are equally good when they are clearly not ...

    The evidence is all around us ...

    Some is overt (not just ME saying this-or-that), and some is a little more gently referenced ...

    IMO, SRAM has much nicer rear shifting and even my Rival rear shifting is a bit more reliable and needs less tweaking to stay adjusted than the DuraAce 7800 I was previously running. But the opposite is true up front where the Shimano front shifting seemed a bit more solid especially on the cyclocross bike where things get gummed up pretty quickly and it's not unusual to attempt front shifts under some load.
    • I do NOT believe that Campagnolo shifters can overcome the shortcomings of the original version of the SRAM Red front derailleur, BTW
    • hey, you even posted in that thread & yet you either feign ignorance OR you are ignorant

    • and, throughout the Internet: www.parktool.com is one example if you had truly done more than a ride down-the-block on a bike with a pair of Shimano shifters/etc. then you would understand what "dwell" is ... I didn't make up the term ... but, if YOU want to attribute it to me then apparently it is acceptable enough to describe the phenomenon which occasionally results in balky shifting that the people at Park Tool have adopted it!
    • OR, are you incapable of comprehending what you read?
    • ... with a make-believe need for a chart of some sort?
    • Who can tell what you truly know & comprehend? Again, you have demonstrated that you are incapable of comprehending the contents of Chris Juden's simple matrix because if you could understand it then you would not ignorantly call using Campagnolo shifters with Shimano derailleurs a "backyard mashup project"
    • It's almost sad that you think that a simple, direct exchange of shifters is a mechanical process which you are not capable of implementing.due to a level of literacy which means that you think that a step-by-step explanation of how simple the process is results in a "mashup project" ... your inability to comprehend is like telling someone that a person should not use a different brand and/or color of handlebar tape because it is not how the bike came from the manufacturer ...

      NOTHING is being fabricated.

      NOTHING is being added.

      In other words, if you were capable of wrapping your head around the process then you would be able see that there is nothing Rube Goldberg about making a simple shifter swap which merely involves the simple exchange of like components.

    Am I supposed to cite the www.parktool.com site each time I suggest Campagnolo shifters as an upgrade?

    Are you going to declare the observations therein to be somehow invalid so that you can continue to falsely declare that there are no citations of poor shifting with an all-Shimano shifter-drivetrain combination or all-SRAM shifter-drivetrain combination?

    Again, are you going to suggest that daveryanwyoming is providing unreliable assessment of Shimano's & SRAM's limitations?

    • here ... chew on this:

    [​IMG]

    Who knows what the conditions were?!?

    Who cares?

    If you believe it is true that there is no difference in the capabilities of the various Groups then why do some people even ask about upgrading with an eye toward SRAM?

    I reckon it isn't a fashion statement (which may be the case for some people) but rather an attempt to reconcile occasionally dodgy shifting with the rear & front derailleurs of a Shimano equipped bike.

    • I don't remember ever reading anyone asking about upgrading from SRAM to Shimano.
    • Do you?

    Why do you choose to ignore the signs of discontent which have resulted in people migrating/"upgrading" to SRAM in an apparent effort to achieve better shifting with the rear derailleur?

    Again, clearly you still haven't been able to decipher Chris Juden's matrix because if you were able to then you would know that putting a pair of Campagnolo shifters on a bike which has Shimano derailleurs is barely different than when you had your V2 Campagnolo shifters replaced with a set of V3 Campagnolo shifters ...

    1. disconnect the cables
    2. remove the shifters
    3. install the new shifters
    4. attach the cables

    Does that really sound so complicated?

    Oh wait!

    I wasn't being verbose enough when I excluded the steps which involve of untaping & retaping the cable housing onto the handlebars ...

    I suppose that SOME people may think that it is beyond the capability of others to also unwrap the handlebar tape + re-tape the cable housing onto the handlebars AND THEN re-wrap the handlebar tape ...

    • changing to SRAM shifters & derailleurs would probably require un-taping & re-taping the cable housing, too ...
    • even changing to another vintage Shimano shifter might require un-wrapping the handlebar tape in order to & tape the cable housing onto the the handlebar ...
    • BUT, the Campagnolo shifters would not require any other changes beyond the installation of the shifters + taping the cable housing & wrapping the handlebar tape unless the bike's Shimano rear derailleur is a Tourney-or-equivalent ... but, maybe a Tourne-level rear deraileur has the same indexing as the other Shimano rear derailleurs & so might work!

    • Let's see, which is simpler ... changing just the shifters OR a wholesale change of components? What do YOU think?!?
    • What do you REALLY think?!?

    I don't think that most people are incapable of performing THAT task even if you think that others are so handicapped because one might now suppose that you are must be projecting your inabilities onto others.

    Are YOU so un-dexterous that you therefore project a similar lack of skill on everyone else in this Forum where you think that a direct swap of components is beyond their capability?

    AFAIK, the only complaint one can make about Campagnolo shifters/etc. is that the consumables are more expensive than Shimano & SRAM consumables ... often, exorbitantly more expensive.


    In other words, YOU were indeed misleading when you inferred that SRAM-with-SRAM & Shimano-with-Shimano work better when there is no evidence to indicate that to be true BUT there is evidence to suggest otherwise.
     
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