Quote: Originally Posted by alienator
I'm not making misleading statements. You have yet to offer anything that indicates why Shimano or SRAM perform sub-optimally with their respective systems compared to Campy shifters with those systems. All you've offered are your suspect opinions; yet you continue to promote your opinions as if they are fact. Sadly, there are no facts in evidence that support your Campy shifter recommendations. None.
People come here and ask simple questions, and what they get from you are verbose instructions on backyard mashup projects albeit instructions with colorful fonts and varied font types. Whether or not Campy, Shimano, and/or SRAM have done in house testing of junkyard projects isn't clear. What is clear is that it's unlikely that you have access to that information, and your Rube Goldberg solutions for neophytes asking questions are probably the last thing neophytes--or anyone for that matter--want.
It should be noted that your anecdotal doting is not data collection.
ACK!
Okay, Troll, here is my reply to you ...
- before you bother to protest, in case you didn't already know, YOU are possibly the quintessential "Internet Troll" ... take a look at your posts which are frequently comprised of meaningless heckling
- otherwise, how do you explain the "Hilarious" remark earlier in this thread?
- Who knew that there were Lebanese Trolls?!?
Sadly, your denial is hollow ...
And, your earlier statement was indeed intentionally false & misleading in the apparent hope that those who don't know better will believe you if you go unchallenged ...
BECAUSE haven't you anecdotally declared that you once (?) tried both Shimano & SRAM but did not find them to your liking & that is the reason you choose to use Campagnolo shifters?
Really?
So, is it because YOU can't tell the difference that you therefore think that no one else can tell the difference?
- unfortunately, the benefit of the better Shimano Groups (specifically Dura Ace & Ultegra) can probably be attributed to the ramping-and-pinning on the chainrings because if you were more knowledgeable, then you would know that in the past (I don't know about the past three years) the 105 chainrings are physically the same as Tiagra chainrings & probably the same as Sora chainrings, or vice versa ... so, the benefit of upgrading within the Shimano line is mostly cosmetic ([COLOR= rgb(0, 128, 0)]nothing wrong with THAT as a reason[/COLOR]) with reduced weight & possibly extra Cogs on the Cassette & sometimes better bearings
- the simple answer is that Shimano-to-Shimano is generally not an upgrade unless the individual is willing to pony up for a Dura Ace or Ultegra group ... or, it might be an upgrade if their current rear derailleur is the Tourney-level
- the simple answer is that Shimano-to-SRAM may be an upgrade for rear shifting (if you like the double-tap mechanism) if a person has the budget for a wholesale exchange of components; but, the front shifting may not be better is it easier to remove a Shimano shifter & install a SRAM shifter than to remove a Shimano shifter & install a Campagnolo shifter? the only person I know who has declared that he had a problem with installing V3 Campagnolo shifters pretends that he can "speak Campagnolo" at his shop ...
- FYI. Other than needing a T25 wrench which has a 4" shaft, V3 shifters are actually EASIER (as in, the installation is "faster") to install than either V1 or V2 shifters.
[*] the simple answer which you are seeking is that changing Shimano-shifters-to-Campagnolo-shifters is indeed a simpler upgrade than changing to either a better Shimano Group or to a SRAM group because the Campagnolo shifters benefit BOTH the front & rear shifting for a minimal cost vs. the cost of a shifters, derailleurs, chainrings-or-crankset, and possibly a new chain if the bike does not already have a 10-speed chain if one opts for a Shimano or SRAM "upgrade" of their components ...
YOU DO THE MATH!
Strange how ... SANS EVIDENCE ... you apparently managed to draw the conclusion that all the Groups are equally good when they are clearly not ...
The evidence is all around us ...
Some is overt (not just ME saying this-or-that), and some is a little more gently referenced ...
[COLOR= rgb(255, 0, 0)]IMO, SRAM has much nicer rear shifting and even my Rival rear shifting is a bit more reliable and needs less tweaking to stay adjusted than the DuraAce 7800 I was previously running. But the opposite is true up front where the Shimano front shifting seemed a bit more solid especially on the cyclocross bike where things get gummed up pretty quickly and it's not unusual to attempt front shifts under some load. [/COLOR]
- I do NOT believe that Campagnolo shifters can overcome the shortcomings of the original version of the SRAM Red front derailleur, BTW
- hey, you even posted in that thread & yet you either feign ignorance OR you are ignorant
- and, throughout the Internet: www.parktool.com is one example if you had truly done more than a ride down-the-block on a bike with a pair of Shimano shifters/etc. then you would understand what "dwell" is ... I didn't make up the term ... but, if YOU want to attribute it to me then apparently it is acceptable enough to describe the phenomenon which occasionally results in balky shifting that the people at Park Tool have adopted it!
- OR, are you incapable of comprehending what you read?
- ... with a make-believe need for a chart of some sort?
- Who can tell what you truly know & comprehend? Again, you have demonstrated that you are incapable of comprehending the contents of Chris Juden's simple matrix because if you could understand it then you would not ignorantly call using Campagnolo shifters with Shimano derailleurs a "backyard mashup project"
- It's almost sad that you think that a simple, direct exchange of shifters is a mechanical process which you are not capable of implementing.due to a level of literacy which means that you think that a step-by-step explanation of how simple the process is results in a "mashup project" ... your inability to comprehend is like telling someone that a person should not use a different brand and/or color of handlebar tape because it is not how the bike came from the manufacturer ...
NOTHING is being fabricated.
NOTHING is being added.
In other words, if you were capable of wrapping your head around the process then you would be able see that there is nothing Rube Goldberg about making a simple shifter swap which merely involves the simple exchange of like components.
Am I supposed to cite the
www.parktool.com site each time I suggest Campagnolo shifters as an upgrade?
Are you going to declare the observations therein to be somehow invalid so that you can continue to falsely declare that there are no citations of poor shifting with an all-Shimano shifter-drivetrain combination or all-SRAM shifter-drivetrain combination?
Again, are you going to suggest that daveryanwyoming is providing unreliable assessment of Shimano's & SRAM's limitations?
Who knows what the conditions were?!?
Who cares?
If you believe it is true that there is no difference in the capabilities of the various Groups then why do some people even ask about upgrading with an eye toward SRAM?
I reckon it isn't a fashion statement ([COLOR= rgb(169, 169, 169)]which may be the case for some people[/COLOR]) but rather an attempt to reconcile occasionally dodgy shifting with the rear & front derailleurs of a Shimano equipped bike.
- I don't remember ever reading anyone asking about upgrading from SRAM to Shimano.
- Do you?
Why do you choose to ignore the signs of discontent which have resulted in people migrating/"upgrading" to SRAM in an apparent effort to achieve better shifting with the rear derailleur?
Again, clearly you still haven't been able to decipher Chris Juden's matrix because if you were able to then you would know that putting a pair of Campagnolo shifters on a bike which has Shimano derailleurs is barely different than when you had your V2 Campagnolo shifters replaced with a set of V3 Campagnolo shifters ...
- disconnect the cables
- remove the shifters
- install the new shifters
- attach the cables
Does that really sound so complicated?
Oh wait!
I wasn't being verbose enough when I excluded the steps which involve of untaping & retaping the cable housing onto the handlebars ...
I suppose that SOME people may think that it is beyond the capability of others to also unwrap the handlebar tape + re-tape the cable housing onto the handlebars AND THEN re-wrap the handlebar tape ...
- changing to SRAM shifters & derailleurs would probably require un-taping & re-taping the cable housing, too ...
- even changing to another vintage Shimano shifter might require un-wrapping the handlebar tape in order to & tape the cable housing onto the the handlebar ...
- BUT, the Campagnolo shifters would not require any other changes beyond the installation of the shifters + taping the cable housing & wrapping the handlebar tape unless the bike's Shimano rear derailleur is a Tourney-or-equivalent ... but, maybe a Tourne-level rear deraileur has the same indexing as the other Shimano rear derailleurs & so might work!
- Let's see, which is simpler ... changing just the shifters OR a wholesale change of components? What do YOU think?!?
- What do you REALLY think?!?
I don't think that most people are incapable of performing THAT task even if you think that others are so handicapped because one might now suppose that you are must be projecting your inabilities onto others.
Are YOU so un-dexterous that you therefore project a similar lack of skill on everyone else in this Forum where you think that a direct swap of components is beyond their capability?
AFAIK, the only complaint one can make about Campagnolo shifters/etc. is that the consumables are more expensive than Shimano & SRAM consumables ... often, exorbitantly more expensive.
In other words, YOU were indeed misleading when you inferred that SRAM-with-SRAM & Shimano-with-Shimano work better when there is no evidence to indicate that to be true BUT there is evidence to suggest otherwise.
