853 v ultrafoco v ???

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by darrenf, Oct 21, 2004.

  1. darrenf

    darrenf New Member

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    Hi all

    I'm after a bit of help.

    After a long and tortuous personal dilemma over steel v alu v ti v carbon etc etc, I have come to the decision that my next frame will be a steel one.

    I don't want to raise the issue of steel v any other type of material. I have come down to choosing steel as I have basically decided that I like the look of the classic, lugged steel frames and want to invest in a frame that will last me a long time. Plus I seem to have a good choice locally.

    My options are as follows (that I have narrowed down to):-

    1. gios compact pro. made from dedacciai "special custom tubing for gios" according to their website. Nice classic looks with chrome lugs etc. Available from a LBS (Plus I already have a gios). Does anyone know what this material is equivalent to in the deddaciai range?? frame weight is reportedly 1850g for an average size frame according to gios website.

    2. custom build by local frame builder. Usually builds in reynolds 853 and can build me a nice lugged frame with chrome head lugs / rear end etc. Will also build in columbus and I would be interested in ultra foco which seems to be the equivalent of 853. Custom build would be more expensive but not considerably so when compared to the gios.

    I can of course ask the local builder his opinion on 853 v ultra foco but also after some independent opinions.

    I would particularly like to know:-

    likely frame weight of average lugged frame built from 853 or ultrafoco?

    Any other key differentials?

    what is the gios deddaciai custom tubing equivalent to (similar or poorer standard)?

    Is custom better all the way or is the gios likely to be just as good (off the peg but in 1 cm increments)?

    Anyway, thanks in advance for any guidance you can give.
     
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  2. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    You ae Asking too many apples and oranges questions. The Gios frame is likely Zero Tre the low end Dedacciai cromo, and Excel gives the weight as 4.4 pounds. If you want real durability,ultra foco is the wrong palce to be looking for it. A lugged frame of approx 56cm of 853 will likely be right about 4 pounds, depending on size, tubing diameter and butting. Some butting configurations of 853 are real porky. Ultra foco could be .5 pounds lighter, and is way ahead of 853 when it comes to being lighter. Custom is better only if you need special custom geometry.
     
  3. 531Aussie

    531Aussie Well-Known Member

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    I researched the purchase of a steel frame for a long time. I decided early on I wanted steel, and based on material, reputation/reviews, price, weight, and looks, I bought a 2004 Cervelo Superprodigy (custom drawn Foco), and it's FANTASTIC.

    It's one of these, but this one has slightly longer, custom chain-stays, most likely built for the cobbles in Europe for Team CSC:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php...RGW/bike_ch1825

    http://www.cervelo.com/bikes/SPG.html

    I think the clincher for me was the price; I think they are now selling in the U.S. for about $900, which is reasonable for a "brand name" frame made with Columbus Foco steel. Try getting anything else in Foco for that price.

    The frame also comes with a 1" Columbus Muscle fork (full carbon), a Cervelo carbon seat post, and a Cane Creek S2 head-set.

    If you're worried about weight, that Gios is nothing special at 1850g. I have two old 531 frames that are 1860g!! Also, custom frames tend to get pretty expensive.

    Trust me, I went throught the whole process, checking out every major steel frame on the market, and I couldn't be happier.
     
  4. shokhead

    shokhead New Member

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    Lemond steel/carbon bikes are almost as nice as the Ti/carbon.
     
  5. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    Yeah sure, but they aren't lugged steel.
     
  6. SDL

    SDL New Member

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    Actually I believe it uses Zero Uno as the frame has dual taper seat stays which to my knowledge are not available in Zero Tre. I happen to own a Compact Pro and I can say that it is the rediculous adjustable dropouts which significantly add to the weight. For the price the finish isn't so hot either (thin clear coat, hand painted details are sloppy and the masking around the stainless lugs is also sloppy).

    I ordered mine with Campy Centaur, Proton wheels and the carbon fork. This bike is very fast in spite of the weight. My other bike is a Bianchi XL EV2 with Record and Ksyriums and the Gios feels faster.

    That said, if you have the budget to have a frame custum built, go for it. It's worth it just for the exclusivity.
     
  7. darrenf

    darrenf New Member

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    Thanks for the replies folks.

    I think the gios is fast losing favour with me despite the fact that I currently own a gios lite steel frame and really love it. Want to move to something a bit more special but don't think the compact pro fits the bill.

    The cervelo looks good (thanks for the link), but there only seems to be one dealer in england, and that frame is not on their website so can't tell the price in the UK. (You can bet it's more than the USD equivalent though)!! Besides, I do want to buy from somewhere fairly local for service etc.

    I think I'll pay the custom guy another visit. From my initial discussions, the prices aren't too much more than the gios anyway, and I can spec it exactly how I want and get a made to measure frame.

    What would you guys say is the equivalent of 853 in columbus tubing? Ultrafoco is obviously superior from a weight perspective but not on durability?
     
  8. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    There is alot of Columbus tubesets.Any of the nivacrom stuff is good, upper end. What your bulder recommends may have to do with your size and weight. FWIW, I think 853 is overhyped,and is better for tig welding, not that it can't be lugged,but has never made my short list.
     
  9. jitteringjr

    jitteringjr New Member

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    I test rode one of those today and I loved it. I am going to take it on a longer test ride this weekend and probably buy it. Could you give an in depth review on it please? I ask because nobody did a review on them at roadbikereview.com

    Also the cycling news link is bunked out. Could you repost a good link?

    Thanks in advance
     
  10. 531Aussie

    531Aussie Well-Known Member

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    HA :D , I was gunna write a review on roadbikereview.com but I've only ridden it about 10 times, so I really wanna put a thesis together before I put it on there. :)

    I'll put the Cycling News link on again, but if no luck, I posted it on this Bike Forums thread (message #3) -- I'm sure it will work from there.

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=669075#post669075

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/bike_ch1825

    Here's another picture, but you're gotta scroll down about a third of the way, and the page takes a while to load.
    http://www.cheekymonkey.com.au/athletes.htm

    I'm no expert bike reviewer, so I'll probably use all the cliches.

    It's pretty much got everything: it accelerates fantastically, it's comfortable and smooth, it's light enough for me (frame is 1687g, fork is 391g), and it's definitely stiffer than my other steel bikes. It's also very stable at high speeds; two of my other steel bikes have speed wobble problems.
    And.......well......it's just great.


    It's probably easier to pick on the tiny things I would prefer to be different (these are only trivialities):

    I think I would've prefered a 1"1/8 steerer instead of 1".
    The seat post is a bit of a pain to adjust, but once it's right it's right.
    Some people wouldn't want a bike that's made in Taiwan
    This is just personal, but I think I would've liked the steering to be a teeny weeny eeny bit lighter -- but this is nothing -- it's better to have a stable front end that doesn't shimmy.

    That's all I could think of :)

    Feel free to ask me anything else
     
  11. 531Aussie

    531Aussie Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I think you've said that before somwhere else.

    Did you know Columbus have some new "niobium" steels called "Spirit", and "Life". The Columbus site is still under construction.

    http://www.ceeway.com/Columbus-Tubing.htm
     
  12. jitteringjr

    jitteringjr New Member

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    Aussie,

    That looks sharp with the velomax circuits on it (assuming that is yours). The one in the store had plain Ritchey wheels on it and after seeing that one, I like it even more. The cool thing is with the money I'd save over the other bikes I have been looking at, I could upgrade to the Velomax Orion wheels. That would make the bike only like a half a pound heavier than the aluminum stuff I was looking at.

    How do the cervelo brakes compare to other models?
     
  13. 531Aussie

    531Aussie Well-Known Member

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    :D That's not me; I'm much fatter than him, and he's in Sydney. I also like the look of those Velomax wheels, especially since the colours match the frame :)

    I don't have the Cervelo brakes, I only bought the frame, fork, post and head-set package.

    I was just thinking it all through while I was riding, and I really think the price is what got me over the line, especially since a Columbus Muscle fork retails in Australia for about $500 US!!

    I got the frame, fork, etc, for about $1200 US (I think they sell there for about $950), which is pretty good, because the prices of imported frames down here are a joke. It's usually very hard to get a brand name steel frame down here for under $1400US, and many are well over $2000 US, and some, such as the top Scapins, are over $3500 US!!!!?!?!?!?!?!
     
  14. armchair_spacem

    armchair_spacem New Member

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    Talk to your frame builder guy about Columbus EL-OS (Nivachrom) if you're after durability in the higher end columbus range (and assuming your guy can get it). I was almost dead set on an an 853 custom build but went with the EL-OS in the megatube configuration instead. Rides a little nicer (IMO - before you all pounce, I DID compare apples with apples on components) than 853, lighter, and by all accounts will give you longer service life than foc or ultrafoco.
     
  15. Claes

    Claes New Member

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    I was just about to ask that. Is not the 853 meant to be tiged because of its airhardening properties? I have had a tiged mtb 853 frame from Gary Fisher and loved it. Resonably durable and strong. Due to tig welding, lots of frame for your buck. Just my 2 €C.
     
  16. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    It doesn't have to be tig welded.It's just that any of the air hardening alloys don't loose strength at the joints like non air hardening alloys.Since extra material isn't required at the joint to compensate for strength loss,the tubing can be made a bit lighter. Being heat treated and stonger,853 can also be drawn a bit thinner than non heat treated alloys. 853 isn't unique with regard to it's properties,as every major tubing maker now offers something comparable or better in some respects....FWIW tho, non air hardning steel alloys have been successfully tig welded for years.
     
  17. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    WoW!! A tig welded steel bike that spinns my beanie. Thanks for sharing.
     
  18. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    Well maybe, mabye not...I have a Moser TK-1 Leader built with Zero Uno and even using oversize tubes it has an advertized weight of 3.6 pounds. Given the diameter tubing and weight of the Compact Pro frame, Gios must be pouring lead in some of the tubes to pork it out so much. It's not impossible that a mix of tubes could also be used.
     
  19. armchair_spacem

    armchair_spacem New Member

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    I've got a semi-compact custom columbus EL-OS (nivachrom) frame that's tig welded and weighs in around 1.7kg. Not light but a buttery smooth ride and it accelerates like a cut cat.
     
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