90 watts in 22 weeks

[Freddy Merxury]

My goal is to increase my power at threshold from 250 to 340 in 22 weeks. I've based my 340 watt goal on 85% of my best 5 minute effort from this year.

I hope to acheive my goal by doing twice weekly 1 hour long efforts at incrementally increasing watts.

Started on Saturday by attempting to do 250 watts for an hour. Only made it about 20 minutes before blowing up. I tried again on yesterday to finish the entire hour at 250w. This time I had much better luck, finishing the hour effort at 261w. So now I need to improve about 15 watts a month until the end of February to meet my goal. Planning on tracking my progress on here.

9-22 250w for 20 minutes
9-26 261w

 

[frost]

You obviously are not afraid of a challenge. Good luck with that /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

 

[tomw1974]

I wish you the best of luck and look forward to your updates!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by tomw1974 .

I wish you the best of luck and look forward to your updates!

Yes, good luck and please post your progress as it should be an interesting study in goal setting and results.

FWIW, I'd strongly recommend reworking your goals a bit. IOW, think about setting goals for consistent weekly workouts, hours of training per week, number of 20+ minute SST/Threshold efforts per week or total time accumulated in those levels performed as sustained blocks of at least 10 minutes and preferably longer blocks, and perhaps things like number of consecutive weeks between softer weeks or CTL ramp rate targets over the next 22 weeks. Then see how far that takes you in terms of FTP, it might not be the full 90 watts, it might be more than 90 watts depending on your starting point and training history but you'll be setting goals on things largely under your control such as training hours, intensity and makeup of those hours, training consistency, etc. instead of things that no one can possibly predict such as FTP ramp rate or absolute watts gained over a certain period of training.

It's great to want to achieve a certain FTP, but no one can really tell you if that's reasonable or pure dreaming. But workout consistency and quality, that's something under your control and still an aggressive goal to perform high quality and structured training for nearly half a year without losing faith or getting distracted by life. Accomplish that goal and you could hit or maybe even exceed your goal of adding 90 watts to your FTP, fail to achieve that first goal of training quality and consistency and it's highly unlikely you'll achieve your power goals.

But however you approach it, good luck and definitely post your progress as these discussions can be very useful and motivating for folks.

-Dave

 

[RapDaddyo]

+1 on Dave's comments.

I would also add that I think it is counter-productive to measure your MMP performance too frequently. To achieve a large increase in FTP requires a large volume of L4s. In fact, volume and not intensity is the key. This means that you will be training with a constant relatively high level of cumulative training fatigue. To do a proper MMP performance test, you need to be fresh, which means you need to precede the test day with an off day or light day. This directly conflicts with your objective.

Like Dave, I have no idea what your potential is. I do know that you will impede your progress by doing max power tests too frequently.

 

[Freddy Merxury]

Background in collegiate track and field. Ran a sub 1:50 800m. Here is my power profile all done in the last year

5s: 1333w
1m: 782w
5m: 403w
20m: 303w
1h: 261w

Weight fluctuates between 157-170

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by Freddy Merxury .

Background in collegiate track and field. Ran a sub 1:50 800m. Here is my power profile all done in the last year

5s: 1333w
1m: 782w
5m: 403w
20m: 303w
1h: 261w

Weight fluctuates between 157-170

Given your athletic background large changes in FTP are less likely as you're likely already fairly highly trained. OTOH, a 60 minute MMP that's only 86% of your 20 minute MMP suggests that it may not be raw fitness you need as much as work on pacing, focus, and fatigue resistance. It's pretty rare to see someone's FTP fall much below 90-92% of their 20 minute MMP.

I'd suggest a lot of longer 30 to 60 minute SST/L4 efforts working on pacing, focus, and to some extent fatigue resistance and as RDO suggests, don't chase a lot of records but do the solid work and let the power come as it will.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[frost]

One more +
I really liked the wording how Dave put it on wattage: "You don't need to set records during these sessions, you just need to do solid hard work"

For OP, how long have you been training with bike? The power profile is quite down sloping and you have a huge anaerobic capacity (which is expected for a 800m runner, but still putting your 5 and 20 min numbers to Monod looks quite unbelievable). I would say that with that kind of numbers/physiology, getting FTP to 85% of 5 MMP is almost impossible because that would require you to work almost at your maximal oxygen consumption. But no one is saying that you could not improve your oxygen consumption (and 5 MMP along) and still achieve your FTP goal.

I had two years of infrequent, not very dedicated training and last winter almost completely off and put some 70-80 watts to FTP from April to August. Obviously starting from practically untrained state it is a bit different story.

So really interested to hear your progress. Plan well and stay motivated!

 

[Freddy Merxury]

Been riding for a couple years but never put more then 30 hours in for a month. Also never really trained more then 2 months a year. My training has been doing group rides. I think that helps explain why my 20m and 1 hour values are so low. I live in a place with a lot of 1 minute steep climbs, so I've naturally gotten good at that type of effort. I never really ride on my own so my longer efforts suck.

Anyways. Today sucked. My pacing was pretty off and I was 276w through 20 minutes. Didn't make it more then 2 more minutes and quit. I'll give it another shot on Sunday.

9-22 250w for 20 minutes
9-26 261w for 1 hour
9-28 276w for 20 minutes

 

[RapDaddyo]

You seem bent on increasing your intensity. Frankly, I think that is a mistake. Let's say your current FTP is 261W (because you have a recent full hour effort at 261W). You will make more progress doing longer L4s all the way down to about 90%FTP (235W) and doing more total volume than you will by doing short efforts at 275W. What Dave was saying above is that there is a difference between training your FTP and testing your FTP. At this point, your focus should be on training your FTP, not testing it.

 

[frost]

Definately. Volume, long intervals and resist the urge to chase the records at every workout. It is not necessary but appropriate tool like WKO+ helps tracking volume. I don't claim that volume is equal to fitness but still from the described background just simply increasing volume regardless of contents should see big gains.

 

[Rider123]

Yep, have to agree with what others have said.
From experience, duration in L4 is most important. You only need to be riding at about 90-95% for your FTP to improve.
Whilst that sounds easy-ish, it really isn't. 90-95% of FTP for 2x20 mins, 2 times a week on a bike trainer, takes a lot of mental and physical strength.

Good luck and look forward to hearing about your progress.

 

[smaryka]

Originally Posted by Freddy Merxury .

Been riding for a couple years but never put more then 30 hours in for a month. Also never really trained more then 2 months a year. My training has been doing group rides. I think that helps explain why my 20m and 1 hour values are so low. I live in a place with a lot of 1 minute steep climbs, so I've naturally gotten good at that type of effort. I never really ride on my own so my longer efforts suck.

Anyways. Today sucked. My pacing was pretty off and I was 276w through 20 minutes. Didn't make it more then 2 more minutes and quit. I'll give it another shot on Sunday.

9-22 250w for 20 minutes
9-26 261w for 1 hour
9-28 276w for 20 minutes

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo .

You seem bent on increasing your intensity. Frankly, I think that is a mistake. Let's say your current FTP is 261W (because you have a recent full hour effort at 261W). You will make more progress doing longer L4s all the way down to about 90%FTP (235W) and doing more total volume than you will by doing short efforts at 275W. What Dave was saying above is that there is a difference between training your FTP and testing your FTP. At this point, your focus should be on training your FTP, not testing it.

I think you are missing the point here, surely his challenge is to do a specific minimal training plan (2 x 1hr sessions at FTP per week) and see if he can get there? Not to do it in any rational way.

I mean if you've never trained for more than 2 months in a year, and never done more than 7hrs/wk, why not think you can up your FTP by 90w in 5 months by riding nothing but FTP tests twice a week? Either he'll do it or he won't, but getting him to do it in a real training sense (SST, L4 and the like) will be like cheating to him. Won't it, OP?

 

[Freddy Merxury]

Ok, so I guess I wasn't clear in my original post. I plan on riding everyday. I'm not going to just do the hard hours twice a week.

I going to adjust my plan and reduce to only one hard hour a week. I'll do 5 days of L4, one day of long slow, and one day where I test my threshold by doing an hour hard. I think that is a reasonable plan and allows me to track progress at regular intervals throughout the winter.

So today I did 2 hours. With an hour and a half at 240w. Additional half hour cool down.

 

[Felt_Rider]

That sounds like a pretty tough schedule to keep going week after week.
Best wishes

 

[Felt_Rider]

I have been watching on a different forum a discussion on indoor training and the best post came from a guy in Cali racing P/1/2 at the age of 50. He stated that once the time changes (race season is over for him I guess at this point) he goes to a 7 day training week doing 85% of FT ( for him it is 300-310 W as he stated) for no longer than 60 minutes (that includes warm up and cool down) each day until he gets closer to race season in the spring and then starts to work in the higher intensity training. He stated that if he trained at threshold he could not train with having to throw in some rest days and his preference is train 7 days in a row. I have seen his schedule on Strava and he is training 7 days a week just like a few other pros that I follow on Strava. There seems to be a common theme among those guys racing P/1/2 and that is consistency.

It seems like a very common theme stated by folk here and on other forums to train in a manner that is sustainable. This helps me as well when just a few weeks ago I posted interest in Bill Black's version of HOP and even before I posted I had read elsewhere of it being difficult like doing a FTP test. So the training session in itself is not bad unless that session impacts consistency and from that I decided the value of HOP is not as important to me than keep plugging away doing a steady diet 3 x 20's @ 91% FT as a goal. I say goal because for me trying to hit that as a daily goal Monday through Thursday means that I have enough fatigue from day to day training that a number of those 20's end up around 85% FT. Now that I have read the success of this one athlete training intentionally at 85% so that he can train 7 days a week that encourages me. If I can attribute my former success in lifting it was being consistent day after day, week after week and year after year. Allowing the body to adapt at its genetic pace because the one thing I have learned is that the body is going to adapt at its pace and attempting to rush it can only lead to frustration.

Like others have implied that you may be the lucky one that can adapt quickly and no one wants to discourage another from going for their goals. Like others say it will be interesting to see if you can hold up over a period of many weeks. Maybe you can open an account on Strava or TrainingPeaks and we look at your progress from a more detailed perspective just as interested onlookers.

 

[Freddy Merxury]

Started a Strava account. http://app.strava.com/athletes/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&text=freddy+merxury

I'll start downloading after today's ride.

 

[Freddy Merxury]

Any thoughts as to whether doing an hour and a half at 240w means my 261w threshold is underrepresenting? Going for a benchmark on Wednesday, thinking about 270 as a goal.

 

[frost]

A rule of thumb says 5% decay of power for doubled time. Your high AWC might skew it a bit but I still wouldn't say 240w for hour and half itself indicated an increase in FTP. Of course doesn't keep you from setting a new goal for Wednesday if that's what you want to do.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by frost .

A rule of thumb says 5% decay of power for doubled time. Your high AWC might skew it a bit but I still wouldn't say 240w for hour and half itself indicated an increase in FTP. Of course doesn't keep you from setting a new goal for Wednesday if that's what you want to do.

For me, a 5% decay for double the duration beyond 1hr is the best I can expect. Without specific training at the longer duration, I find my results closer to 10% decay.