90 watts in 22 weeks

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by Freddy Merxury, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    There is a lot in this post that I like because it fits right in with my entire scheme

    On the first highlight I have doing some personal reflection as to participating or lurking on these threads, such as, the Limitations of TSS and sure I love sports science and have spent many hours reading through academia / pubmed articles, but here lately it has just burned me out mentally to the point where my attitude is just get on the damn bike and ride it. I say that phrase only for myself and don't want to take the joy out of these discussions in analyzing the equation of how TSS is derived or how it could potentially improved.

    What I know from the most basic level is how to use TSS as it applies to me. I know based on many training sessions what typically happens in various TSS ranges. I know that when I approach or exceed 300 TSS that 10 out 10 times it normally interrupts one or two of the following scheduled training days. I know that 9 out of 10 rides in the 4+ hour range that if I keep TSS at or below 260 that I can typically go out the next day and have a decent 2 x 60 effort of high L3, which I plan to do today. Yesterday 4:30 hours / 74 miles keeping my TSS to about 240, I feel pretty good this morning so later today the 2 x 60 is looking pretty good. So I am glad that using metrics and watching trends in the PMC has shown to be a valuable tool for me even if it is imperfect and I am not willing to dig in to find out if I or others can improve the equation. I felt like watching all these intricate discussions here and on wattage and getting caught up in them was starting to rob the joy of cycling training for me so I think I am going to stop pursuing the sports science for a while and just enjoy working in the trenches with consistent effort at the most basic level of mindless structured training being solid L4 sessions during the week and long rides on the weekends.

    On the second part I started well over a year ago doing 4+ hour rides on Saturdays not so much for the physical improvements, but more to do with the mental aspects. Before that it was obvious to me that on routes of 60 miles or greater that my attitude was negative, such as, a thought would pop up like, "okay, I am done with this" and when that pops up in my mind my body seemed more than willing to shut it down and performance would start fading the remaining miles. So I started extending the miles in a like or not you are going to do this. The next thing I know I am doing 80 to 100 mile routes solo and they started to feel like they were 30 mile routes. Yesterday I did 74 solo it really felt short to me and get this now my attitude is quite the opposite. Now I feel bummed out that the ride is ending when I get in those last 10 miles. I wanted to keep going yesterday, but I had to consider the TSS aspect and not destroy today's training.

    So extending the miles was more of reshaping my attitude because I find if the attitude is negative so goes my performance.
    This was one of my first blog entries and though I don't practice visualization it is relevant to reshaping my attitude.
    http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2008/04/seeing-and-achieving-visualization.html

    Then it was a matter of balancing this higher TSS type training so that it does not mess up the rest of the training schedule.
    http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/01/forward-thinking-training.html

    Both of these things are philosophical (broscience) in nature, but I am keeping the science type things in mind as well.

    Either way it goes I am pretty happy with how solid I now feel on a long route both mentally and physically. It probably is not as key to the CAT level racer doing crits or short TT's.
     


  2. James SA

    James SA New Member

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    "So I started extending the miles in a like or not you are going to do this. The next thing I know I am doing 80 to 100 mile routes solo and they started to feel like they were 30 mile routes"

    I really like this post. My longer rides also felt like death until I... A. did more of them and B. got my pre and during ride nutrition correct. I think that a weekly long ride of approx the same duration as your average or pending race is important from a mental perspective.
     
  3. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    ^^^ Felt - good post and starting to reflect how I'm feeling.

    I know I over-think stuff and right now its lead me to start doubting/2nd guessing the plans from my coach. Part of the point f having a coach for me, was to simply have a solid plan and ride it, knowing it would make me a better rider. Its time for me to get back to that and keep the faith again...

    I also like your comment on 4hr rides. I have the same issue about rides >3hrs and need to start pushing myself to do more of these, especially given my goals are 200km events and multi-day challenging rides!

    I've really enjoyed my last 9 day block of getting out and riding as much as possible. Last day today, on the rollers sadly due to the ice, but its somewhat refreshed and reinvigorated me to get out and just ride quality sessions and spend a little less time over-thinking it all again /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  4. frost

    frost New Member

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    I don't know if you use those durations and percentages as illustrative but that would create a somewhat improbable power profile. 20MMP being 90% of 5MMP would be on the high side ratio reflecting very low anaerobic work capacity while as 20MMP being 90% of 60MMP would be on the very low side reflecting either low training status or exceptionally high anaerobic capacity.

    A "classic" periodisation, as you say, is to train from longer to shorter durations or prepare the aerobic metabolic side first and then "ice the cake" with short, high intensity efforts for anaerobic capacity and neuromuscular adaptations. The reasoning here is that endurance adaptations take long time while in anaerobic capacity and NMP you can reach large improvements in relatively short time and especially anaerobic intervals being somewhat tasking mentally it has a good potential of burning the rider out mentally.
    A reverse periodisation would put at least the aerobic capacity training block in the beginning, building from shorter durations to longer. That (well not exactly the reverse periodisation because this has been typically done after "winter base") has been a very typical approach for TT riders, at least where I live, to start with short intervals and once you reach certain pace (before the era of power meters) you either lenghten the interval, shorten recovery and/or add more intervals, but also modern coaches use reverse periodisation and once again there is not simple yes/no answer if one is unequivocally better.
    Anyway when talking about "short" efforts here it is very, very short, very, very high intensity like "flying 500m" or 30-40 sec full power effort repeated 8-10 times with plenty of recovery. Anything over 10 minutes is training just the same aerobic metabolism and there is definately no reason why you could not mix eg. 20min vs. 5h efforts to a same training week or even a same ride just as long as you can recover and keep completing the workouts.

    Just a side note, I know Joe Friel uses term "CP" to reflect to the maximum power for a duration. Some people see red because CP refers to a concept of 'Critical Power' and Friel's way of using CP doen't have anything to do with it. I would rather just talk about mean maximal power for a duration or MMP for short.
    If you are interested about the scientific concept of 'Critical Power' read more eg. here: http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/2010/04/power-vs-duration-critical-power.html
     
  5. James SA

    James SA New Member

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    Thanks Frost. I guess it was illustrative but I appreciate the correction, Ill keep an eye on my power profile and thank you for clearing up the MMP vs CP thing too. You think that 60MMP at 90% of 20MMP is low? I guess I need to focus on my 2 x 20's for a while then /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif. My loosely formed plan for this season is to focus on L3 and L4 intervals 60 to 90 minutes weekdays and 3hr L2/L3 rides on weekends. As each race approaches I will introduce the "short" intervals as you mentioned to build and peak. After my first road race (March) I will switch to block type (4 consecutive days) longer L2/L3 sessions to get ready for the mtb stage race (May). All the while I will keep an eye on CTL, ATL, and TSB. I don't think that Ill get my CTL over 70ish on this program but hopefully it will be enough.
     
  6. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Considering a lot of folks estimate their FTP as 95% of their 20 minute power (which may be a bit optimistic for a lot of folks), then having an FTP that's only 90% of your 20 minute MMP is a bit on the low side. FWIW from what I've seen 20 minute to FTP ratios around 93% are very common but some folks (real slowtwitchers with a lot of aerobic capabilities) can be up around 97% or maybe even higher.

    If your field tested 60 minute MMP is only 90% of your 20 minute MMP then I'd focus on the longer efforts as it seems that fatigue resistance, pacing or focus is a bigger problem than what you can sustain for 20 minutes. Never harm in raising your 20 minute MMP and if it rises, so should your FTP but if your FTP is a relatively low percentage of your 20 minute MMP and that's a concern for the kind of events you're targeting then work the longer efforts to improve that percentage.

    -Dave
     
  7. MichaelHelton

    MichaelHelton New Member

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    Reading this thread invites me to ponder how little I know of cycling training.
     
    awilki01 likes this.
  8. James SA

    James SA New Member

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    Thanks Dave, Is what you mean by "longer efforts" longer intervals i.e. 40min at 90% and longer training sessions 3-4 hours?
     
  9. Freddy Merxury

    Freddy Merxury New Member

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    Wasn't able to do a threshold test this weekend because of team rides. Both team rides were over 150 TSS. And ended the week with over 8 hours. Feeling pretty good out on the bike right now. Taking an easy monday to recover then back to 2x20' for the week. Then I'll shoot for a threshold test next weekend.
     
  10. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Yes, as good as 2x20s can be, if you want to raise your 60 minute or longer MMP relative to what you're doing for 20 minute efforts then work some longer sustained efforts. Those could be 45 to 60 minute focused intervals or multi hour rides where you try to accumulate as much mid to high Tempo as you can but if the issue is fatigue resistance and power for longer efforts relative to power for shorter efforts then include some longer efforts in your training.

    BTW, I'm not suggesting you scrap the 2x20s or the work that is moving your power numbers forward, just that it might not be enough if your power fades more than you'd expect during longer efforts and that is important to the kind of events you're preparing to ride. IOW, you should likely still do the 2x20 work but find a day or two in your schedule for longer efforts as well.

    -Dave
     
  11. James SA

    James SA New Member

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    Thanks Dave (again).
     
  12. awilki01

    awilki01 New Member

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    With the idea of specificity in mind, is there any real reason someone like myself that only really likes doing TTs should be doing rides longer than 1.5 hours? Should I not just keep doing the Tempo/SST in the off season and start working towards true threshold a couple months before my first big event? I think many of you do road races. And, in that case, it would make sense to do longer rides. I've done a couple century rides already (Hotter n' Hell). And, I did do longer rides to prepare for that. But, for TT'ing, I believe the best approach may just be focusing on L3 and higher efforts.

    I may be completely taking the wrong approach here. As soon as I think I had something figured out, I come back and start reading your posts and realize I don't.
     
  13. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know I am the only person on these boards advocating long glycogen depleting rides to stimulate Interleukin-6 release into the system. It has been coined by some to be the "endurance" hormone and is found in high quantities in well trained aerobic athletes. Some research shows that riding to the point of glycogen depletion and then refueling just enough to keep the tank hovering on "E" but not completely going to "Empty" (aka bonking) for a few hours can stimulate this. I never paid attention to the references and journal titles as I only planned to use this info for myself (so I have no plans on defending it with sources). The supposed benefit however would trickle down all the way from century long events to something as short as individual pursuit, the mutha of all short TT's.

    The other reason is that if you have the time to ride a lot, central conditioning theory proposes that long medium intensity rides directly contribute to the growth of the left ventricle, which allows one a greater stroke volume. The problem is that no additional gain occurs at intensities higher than 80% of max HR (where peripheral conditioning adaptations occur - capilarization, mitochondrial growth, lactate removal/use, etc.), so volume is really the key. Whether the theory was developed or not by Joe Friel, he sure likes to talk about it.

    Big miles build big FTP. A concept that has taken me 30 years of on and off riding and 6 seasons of racing to sink in. Sure JRA has it's fitness building limits, but a long zone 2/3 ride is not JRA.

    Just some thoughts.
     
  14. frost

    frost New Member

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    I have quite much the same thing, specialising to TT's. When the conditions (weather at the moment) permits I do longer rides if not for other reasons than I would find hard time to build enough volume with 1.5h rides only.
     
  15. awilki01

    awilki01 New Member

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    I think with enough intensity, you could build enough ATL that would strictly target the energy systems for TT'ing.
     
  16. frost

    frost New Member

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    I don't claim that CTL = FTP would be universally true but at least until certain point restricting volume probably inhibits FTP development. So far I haven't been able to reach a point where more training volume would not improve my FTP and almost all numbers except the very pointy end, highest CTL being 110TSS/d.
    If you take into account that you need some sort of warmup and cooldown to the workout, IF of 0.9 would more or less the highest you can do for an 1.5hrs which would give 121.5 TSS for one ride. Weekly volume as following:
    7d/w - 850.5 / 121.5TSS/d
    6d/w - 729 / 104TSS/d
    5d/w - 607.5 / 87TSS/d

    I think 87TSS/d would be an absolute minimum volume target for me and that 5d/w of high intensity would be probably doable. But if I have choice, I rather target to >100TSS/d and I doubt I could handle 7d/w with IF 0.9 but rather take one rest day and ride longer over the weekend to reach the target volume. At least that would be mentally easier. This is strictly me not trying to generalise and maybe with more specific workouts the results could be better even with lower volume.
     
  17. awilki01

    awilki01 New Member

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    I think I'm convinced to do longer rides on the weekends. It would be nice to get out of the house anyway. But, I will keep it tempo pace. I'll avoid L2 if I can.
     
  18. frost

    frost New Member

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    That's exactly what I'd do too if it wasn't so bloody cold out there (17 degrees (celcius) below freezing)...
     
  19. awilki01

    awilki01 New Member

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    It's going to get in the 50s (F) here in Texas late this weekend. Brrrrrr /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
     
  20. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    That's much colder than here. We're having another mild winter so far. It was 19F/-7C this morning. In the past, that temp would cause my feet to go numb in less than 1 hour, but I've switched to platform pedals and insulated winter boots and my feet were fine. I think I need to raise my seat a bit, because the boots have a thicker sole than my shoes. My position on the bike feels weird and my 20 min power was down a little.
     
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