90 watts in 22 weeks

[frost]

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo .


For me, a 5% decay for double the duration beyond 1hr is the best I can expect. Without specific training at the longer duration, I find my results closer to 10% decay.

To be honest that 5% is just a rule of thumb I have read here or elsewhere and don't know if there is much science behind it.

I took a look at my own files and it seems that best my NP for 2 hours is more than 95% FTP and that is somewhat repeatable effort. I had only one 2 hour "steady state" workout from last summer which was only 90% but that was a hard workout not test or race. If I recall right you are a hard and steady specialist and probably have better reference points?

Anyway I still wouldn't rush to raise FTP to 270w after an hour and half at 240w.

 

[Anthony CC]

Hi all

I have the same goal to increase my FTP 70w in 26 weeks . Is there only a lot of L4 work can increase FTP? Should i do some L5 work one day in a week?

My FTP 200w May 2012
240w Oct 2012

 

[frost]

No one way to happiness. It all depends on your personal fitness, talent profile, motivation and available time. If your FTP is getting very close to ~5min power then adding L5 to the routine or doing a dedicated block of few weeks could be useful. Also when approaching your target race/tour/test a few weeks of bit reduced volume with L5 could help bring out the last drops.

If you are very limited on training time then perhaps intense L4 program could come to question but if you are able to spend more time eg. on weekends (and are lucky enough that the weather permits) I would mix in some L2/L3 rides just for the sake of mental health if not otherwise.

I personally like good challenges and definately don't mean to demoralize you but if you have already come up 40w (20%) in a few months of time, additional 90w will be very, very tough and I would (re-)read Dave's post #4 in this thread about building your overall training plan and setting goals.

 

[Freddy Merxury]

9-22 250w for 20 minutes
9-26 261w for 1 hour +11
9-28 276w for 20 minutes
10-2 268w for 1 hour (275 np) +18

 

[frost]

Originally Posted by Freddy Merxury .

9-22 250w for 20 minutes
9-26 261w for 1 hour +11
9-28 276w for 20 minutes
10-2 268w for 1 hour (275 np) +18

Talk about self filling prophesy /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif. Good work!

 

[Freddy Merxury]

Thanks, so far I'm ahead of schedule. The route I do has a lot of turns so I think the NP value is going to be a solid goal for next week. In the mean time I'll be plugging away at L4's.

Also looking at the stats. My second 30 minutes averaged 273w. So I negative split the effort, as it were. And my average heart rate for the hour was 175bpm which is pretty low considering my max is 203bpm, and the last hour effort was at 182bpm. Please don't make fun of me for having a heart rate monitor.

 

[awilki01]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

I have been watching on a different forum a discussion on indoor training and the best post came from a guy in Cali racing P/1/2 at the age of 50. He stated that once the time changes (race season is over for him I guess at this point) he goes to a 7 day training week doing 85% of FT ( for him it is 300-310 W as he stated) for no longer than 60 minutes (that includes warm up and cool down) each day until he gets closer to race season in the spring and then starts to work in the higher intensity training. He stated that if he trained at threshold he could not train with having to throw in some rest days and his preference is train 7 days in a row. I have seen his schedule on Strava and he is training 7 days a week just like a few other pros that I follow on Strava. There seems to be a common theme among those guys racing P/1/2 and that is consistency.

It seems like a very common theme stated by folk here and on other forums to train in a manner that is sustainable. This helps me as well when just a few weeks ago I posted interest in Bill Black's version of HOP and even before I posted I had read elsewhere of it being difficult like doing a FTP test. So the training session in itself is not bad unless that session impacts consistency and from that I decided the value of HOP is not as important to me than keep plugging away doing a steady diet 3 x 20's @ 91% FT as a goal. I say goal because for me trying to hit that as a daily goal Monday through Thursday means that I have enough fatigue from day to day training that a number of those 20's end up around 85% FT. Now that I have read the success of this one athlete training intentionally at 85% so that he can train 7 days a week that encourages me. If I can attribute my former success in lifting it was being consistent day after day, week after week and year after year. Allowing the body to adapt at its genetic pace because the one thing I have learned is that the body is going to adapt at its pace and attempting to rush it can only lead to frustration.

Like others have implied that you may be the lucky one that can adapt quickly and no one wants to discourage another from going for their goals. Like others say it will be interesting to see if you can hold up over a period of many weeks. Maybe you can open an account on Strava or TrainingPeaks and we look at your progress from a more detailed perspective just as interested onlookers.

I think this is great! Consistency is indeed key. I may do this after my TT in early November next month until the late spring of next year. This is ideal for the cold on an indoor trainer/rollers. I hate the cold!!!

I also found it interesting the comments about training volume vs intensity. I'm in what you would call the Build phase of training a few weeks from my TT. I've been trying to do my L4 intervals at 100% FTP. Maybe I should be backing down to 90% (SST) and doing longer ones instead. Riding at 100% (or trying to) has really fatigued me - so much so after 2.5 weeks of doing it in blocks, I had to take 3 days off completely. I'm still not back 100%. I'm just doing easy rides this week for recovery. So, the 100% may just be hindering me more than helping me. Like you indicated, FTP riding is for testing and races.

 

[grid256]

Well, I too was intrigued by the above quoted post from the ST forum mentioned by Felt_Rider. So much so that it's been on my mind all week and prompted me to join this forum to hear what you guys think.

So, isn't training at tempo (85%) just going to make you really good at tempo? Or does the repeatability of them (5-7 days a week) make the difference?

 

[Felt_Rider]

I can tell you why it works for my goals, but I am a recreational cyclist so please keep that in mind when I say why.

I will try to go for 91% on my 3 x 20's or 2 x 30's, but reality is that sometimes fatigue sets in and I do hit more toward 85% for the total. My winter goal will be is to keep my CTL into the 70's and hopefully into the high 70's. That will get tougher as my long Saturday rides gets reduced when it gets ultra cold and I have to lose that extra TSS. But by trying to stay in the 70's I have less of a hole to dig out of come spring and I typically do some mountain events in the spring. Cramming for tests never worked well for me in college and I am finding with my genetics that trying to take it easy in the winter and letting that CTL (or fitness) drop too low than I cannot get my fitness up quick enough if I were going to try to cram for it. Two years ago I made this mistake by letting my CTL get into the 50's and I just about burned myself out training so hard trying to make an early spring goal.

So then it comes to the question how do I keep my CTL up over the winter with limited work day training time and a loss of training hours from a reduced Saturday ride time. It just about forces me to go with an intensity level that I repeat just about daily. If I try to hit real intense intervals I will need a day of rest or the next day the intensity will be too low. So I am finding that sweet spot that is enough to stimulate progress, but can be repeated daily in order to keep my fitness level from falling too low.

For me this schedule was is what I ended up with to keep my fitness up, get enough TSS in that short time and at the end maintain a certain CTL without it all becoming mentally and physically overbearing. Oddly it just so happens that my schedule then appears to be very similar to what Kevin M. stated on ST. So when he stated that it worked for him it just made me feel better about what I am doing. Gave me a little more assurance. But this has been similar to what Dave and RDO has stated as well. I go more for the 91% if I can.

Since I don't race I usually don't focus on high intensity work, but I will participate on occasional group rides that like to sprint every rolling hill.

 

[awilki01]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

I can tell you why it works for my goals, but I am a recreational cyclist so please keep that in mind when I say why.

I will try to go for 91% on my 3 x 20's or 2 x 30's, but reality is that sometimes fatigue sets in and I do hit more toward 85% for the total. My winter goal will be is to keep my CTL into the 70's and hopefully into the high 70's. That will get tougher as my long Saturday rides gets reduced when it gets ultra cold and I have to lose that extra TSS. But by trying to stay in the 70's I have less of a hole to dig out of come spring and I typically do some mountain events in the spring. Cramming for tests never worked well for me in college and I am finding with my genetics that trying to take it easy in the winter and letting that CTL (or fitness) drop too low than I cannot get my fitness up quick enough if I were going to try to cram for it. Two years ago I made this mistake by letting my CTL get into the 50's and I just about burned myself out training so hard trying to make an early spring goal.

So then it comes to the question how do I keep my CTL up over the winter with limited work day training time and a loss of training hours from a reduced Saturday ride time. It just about forces me to go with an intensity level that I repeat just about daily. If I try to hit real intense intervals I will need a day of rest or the next day the intensity will be too low. So I am finding that sweet spot that is enough to stimulate progress, but can be repeated daily in order to keep my fitness level from falling too low.

For me this schedule was is what I ended up with to keep my fitness up, get enough TSS in that short time and at the end maintain a certain CTL without it all becoming mentally and physically overbearing. Oddly it just so happens that my schedule then appears to be very similar to what Kevin M. stated on ST. So when he stated that it worked for him it just made me feel better about what I am doing. Gave me a little more assurance. But this has been similar to what Dave and RDO has stated as well. I go more for the 91% if I can.

Since I don't race I usually don't focus on high intensity work, but I will participate on occasional group rides that like to sprint every rolling hill.

I'm going to try this too after my TT. I think doing 7 days a week may be a bit much. I'll start out at 5 and work my way up to 7 and see where my CTL levels off. According to my cheat sheet, 20 min of SST will give me about 27 TSS. So, 3 x 20 min SST / 7 days/wk should have me level off around 80 CTL. That's more than I have now before my TT race. I only have mid 60s now. And, don't think just because CTL remains constant that performance follows suit. CTL does not take into account physiological adaptations. I'll probably take a day or two off every so many weeks to be on the safe side. But, in the end, I'll listen to my body and ultimately make decisions from that input.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by awilki01 .


I'm going to try this too after my TT. I think doing 7 days a week may be a bit much. I'll start out at 5 and work my way up to 7 and see where my CTL levels off. According to my cheat sheet, 20 min of SST will give me about 27 TSS. So, 3 x 20 min SST / 7 days/wk should have me level off around 80 CTL. That's more than I have now before my TT race. I only have mid 60s now. And, don't think just because CTL remains constant that performance follows suit. CTL does not take into account physiological adaptations. I'll probably take a day or two off every so many weeks to be on the safe side. But, in the end, I'll listen to my body and ultimately make decisions from that input.

It is a little too much for me too at the moment. Life seems to throw in some interruptions (work or other appointments) to give that extra day off now and then. I missed tonight to cook dinner for my wife. Got to work that angle once in a while and get those biking points so that I can keep doing those long Saturday rides. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

 

[numminummi]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

I have been watching on a different forum a discussion on indoor training and the best post came from a guy in Cali racing P/1/2 at the age of 50. He stated that once the time changes (race season is over for him I guess at this point) he goes to a 7 day training week doing 85% of FT ( for him it is 300-310 W as he stated) for no longer than 60 minutes (that includes warm up and cool down) each day until he gets closer to race season in the spring and then starts to work in the higher intensity training. He stated that if he trained at threshold he could not train with having to throw in some rest days and his preference is train 7 days in a row. I have seen his schedule on Strava and he is training 7 days a week just like a few other pros that I follow on Strava. There seems to be a common theme among those guys racing P/1/2 and that is consistency.

Do you have the link?

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by numminummi .


Do you have the link?

Sure (not sure what the rules are on this board so I will embed the hyerlink. If it doesn't work let me know)


LINK

look for the posts from nslckevin. He just posted again this morning.

 

[frost]

Having spent last couple of winter mostly making excuses not to train and waking up in April at almost zero point with 10kg of extra to carry around, here's a big wisdom from that ST thread: "No matter what you do, it is just do it." As you say consistency is the key and to have a "monkey routine" to keep that up is a big deal.

 

[kwood3]

Originally Posted by Freddy Merxury .

Background in collegiate track and field. Ran a sub 1:50 800m. Here is my power profile all done in the last year

5s: 1333w
1m: 782w
5m: 403w
20m: 303w
1h: 261w

Weight fluctuates between 157-170

I have a similar background with T&F (you are much faster than me tho) i was 50point 400 guy. i have been cycling seriously past 4 months and my ftp is 320 at 75 kg ..about 165 lbs. i would say based off of you power for 20mins, 303w you could assume your ftp is around 95% of that being 280-290w. ftp is considered sustainable watts for 1 hour straight so if you can ride your ftp for over an hour straight ..it is clearly not your ftp, simple as that. when i train i hit 1 day a week at 95-105% of ftp, which is very hard riding. i try to do 20min intervals say a 2x20min at 100-105% ftp. if my ftp is what i can do at an hour then to raise it i train less duration with higher intensity, there are a million different variations you could chose but being in z4 is the key. OF COURSE this is just my opinion as im sure ill offend people saying it but i think your ftp is WAY underestimated. assume it is around 270-290 if you wish and train accordingly. you will notice your gains are way less significant and its way harder to ride an hour at ftp. bear in mind that also as was said before 85% of ftp, for me is around 270-280 watts is considered zone 3. it is way easier to ride in than z4, signficant different with only a few watts. i can easily do z3 for say 2 hours as compared to z4 for 1

 

[cheetahmk7]

Originally Posted by kwood3 .


I have a similar background with T&F (you are much faster than me tho) i was 50point 400 guy. i have been cycling seriously past 4 months and my ftp is 320 at 75 kg ..about 165 lbs. i would say based off of you power for 20mins, 303w you could assume your ftp is around 95% of that being 280-290w. ftp is considered sustainable watts for 1 hour straight so if you can ride your ftp for over an hour straight ..it is clearly not your ftp, simple as that. when i train i hit 1 day a week at 95-105% of ftp, which is very hard riding. i try to do 20min intervals say a 2x20min at 100-105% ftp. if my ftp is what i can do at an hour then to raise it i train less duration with higher intensity, there are a million different variations you could chose but being in z4 is the key. OF COURSE this is just my opinion as im sure ill offend people saying it but i think your ftp is WAY underestimated. assume it is around 270-290 if you wish and train accordingly. you will notice your gains are way less significant and its way harder to ride an hour at ftp. bear in mind that also as was said before 85% of ftp, for me is around 270-280 watts is considered zone 3. it is way easier to ride in than z4, signficant different with only a few watts. i can easily do z3 for say 2 hours as compared to z4 for 1

Based on his 5 and 20 minute test results the Monod equation spits out 270 watts as a CP value. I too have a relatively high 5 minute to 20 minute ratio (375 to 315) and the best I've ever managed for a full hour is 10 watts shy of my CP value. Hence his FTP setting of 261 probably isn't too far off the mark.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by kwood3 .
... but i think your ftp is WAY underestimated....

Yeah, that's pretty much my take as well. I've worked with and tested a lot of folks and haven't seen anyone with an FTP that's less than 90% of their 20 minute power and even that's pretty low with 93% to 96% being more typical. I suspect he'll see some pretty quick gains in the early going just by learning how to perform longer sustained intervals more than actual physiology changes.

 

[Freddy Merxury]

So update. Had to go out of town for business. No bike. Back today, needless to say did not go well. doing a 10k on road bike Saturday. I'll start back on regular rides after that.

 

[awilki01]

If the OP doesn't mind, I'm planning on starting my 7 day a week of 1 hour per day of SST intervals and would like to post the results here as well. I'll have to work up to the 7 days/week though. I'll probably start at 5 days/week of nothing but indoor training on my rollers. I'll start this after my TT on Nov 3rd. Every 3rd or 4th week, I'll ease off a day or two and do a test on a Saturday to see where I am. I'll do a one hour FTP test on those days.

I'm 39 years of age an my current FTP is around 250 watts. This is my 2nd year in what I would call my main hobby. I'm not going to set a target. I'll just report the results.

 

[Freddy Merxury]

OK, today I did 2x20m with 5 minutes rest. 266w on the first 267w on the second. Now, I'm going to do this for a week.