90 watts in 22 weeks

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by Freddy Merxury, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. awilki01

    awilki01 New Member

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    Thanks, Dave! I'm very familiar with that chart. I was first introduced to it in Coggan's Training with Power book. That's why I want to believe that SST is all I really need over the winter. One hour a day six days per week was the plan. My only interest is time trials so, this may become more of my regular in season routine as well - until I get closer to my A priority events. I've read elsewhere that some say SST should only be done a few times a week, but the logic does not sit well with me as an hour session of SST (2x25 min at SST) elicits around 75 TSS. That should be sustainable with no issue six or even seven days per week. Am I missing something here?
     


  2. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    I don't much care for the string analogy because it doesn't account for the diminishing benefit of training benefits (adaptations, if you will). An analogy that comes closer is the ripple effect of throwing a large rock in a still lake. The rock creates a ripple from the impact point out, with diminishing height as the ripple moves further from the impact point. But, even this analogy isn't quite right because it doesn't account for the asymmetrical nature of the benefits.

    I think the ripple analogy works if you imagine that you drop the rock in a lake next to a dam. So, the ripple moves out from the point of impact with diminishing height, but the ripple is blocked by the dam. So, the ripple effect is asymmetrical. If you target anaerobic work capacity (AWC) with efforts less than, say, 3mins, you will see the greatest benefit to anaerobic power but also significant benefit to VO2MAX and FTP. But, the reverse does not hold. Targeting FTP with efforts at >=8mins doesn't do much for AWC.
     
  3. awilki01

    awilki01 New Member

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    That makes sense. Thanks! It's like having two strings - the first string with a tack sticking it down between VO2 and AWC and the second string with a tack sticking it down at FTP. When lifting the first string (working aerobically), it only raises everything at VO2 and below. The second string (working anaerobically) only raises everything at FTP and above.

    This is my version of string theory! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
     
  4. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    I read this a couple of times and I'm not sure I followed. I got the two strings part and thought I understood what they were connected to (string 1 is VO2-AWC and string 2 is FTP). But, then I got lost when you referred to string 1 as working aerobically and string 2 as working anaerobically. I thought it was the reverse.

    Anyway, the main point is that anaerobic training efforts will definitely also result in significant aerobic adaptations whereas my view is that the reverse is less true. If you do 100% SST/L4 efforts, you will raise your FTP significantly but I think you will see little improvement to your AWC. The evidence of the aerobic adaptation benefit of short-duration, high-intensity efforts can be found in an Australian study. I don't have access to the a link or the name of the study at the moment, but you should be able to find it with a Google or PubMed search. I think the name of the study included the terms "short-term high-intensity training" or something similar. There were several control groups and some groups did no high-intensity training other than short-duration efforts. Yet they increased their FTP significantly as well as the targeted AWC adaptations. But, note that this is not an argument for doing short-term high-intensity efforts if your primary adaptation objective is aerobic power (e.g., FTP). If that is your primary objective, you would be better off to directly target aerobic power with L4s or SSTs.
     
  5. awilki01

    awilki01 New Member

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    I wrote that haphazardly. I should have been more detailed. String 1 is aerobic work. If you stick the tack at the top end of the VO2 area and lift the string up anywhere at VO2 or below, all things VO2 and below will raise. If you lift zone 2, zone 2 will raise the most, but so will FTP and VO2 - everything on "this" side of the tack. Likewise, string 2 has the tack around FTP. If you work anything at AWC, it will raise FTP and VO2 - just not as much as it will for AWC. I took the string example way too far out in left field. I analyzed it way too much. We both agree; no worries. I may just not be saying it right. I also agree with focusing on SST and L4s to target an increase in FTP. I won't do AWC until a few weeks out from a high priority event. I may throw some in there for fun if I ever get outside and do a group ride. I'm just enjoying the convenience of my rollers inside. I loathe the cold. Anything 60 and below, and I start to woose out. :)
     
  6. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Now, that's funny! For me, it's any time my water bottle freezes.
     
  7. Freddy Merxury

    Freddy Merxury New Member

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    2x20'
    271w
    272w

    TSS 63
     
  8. frost

    frost New Member

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    By TSS you mean CTL? What is it for recent months? How many hours per week on average?
     
  9. Freddy Merxury

    Freddy Merxury New Member

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    I'm ashamed to admit it but i've actually been pretty inconsistant with my training over the last month or two. The last few weeks have been between 2 and 5 hours. My CTL and ATL are in the 30's.

    I've been pleasently suprised that my threshold has continued to improve even though my training has been pretty pathetic. I hope this means that if I can develope some consistancy and start hitting 6-10 hour weeks with mostly SST, I should see a continued improvement for the immediate future.

    And as dumb as it sounds you guys are helping me be more accountable then I would be otherwise.
     
  10. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    That explains an awful lot in terms of how you can knock out more than 400 watts for five minutes but your FTP is still sub 300 watts.

    I'd work on consistency and training frequency as first priority, Threshold SST intensities as second priority and CTL as third priority and your numbers will almost certainly continue to climb.

    -Dave
     
  11. frost

    frost New Member

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    Yep, it's almost scary how good he's gonna be once he actually starts training /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  12. Freddy Merxury

    Freddy Merxury New Member

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    SST, Had to cut the second one a little short.
    1x20' 274w
    1x15' 268w
     
  13. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    IMHO, 60F is nearly a perfect cycling temperature. It's warm enough to be comfortable in short sleeves, but not so hot to cause excessive sweat and dehydration. Also, if I didn't ride at that temp, I would never get outside during much more than 3 months a year here in Minnesota.

    I have ridden outside every month this year and plan to make it through all 12. One to go! The forecast says highs in the low 30F's this weekend. There is no snow cover yet. We're in a drought.
     
  14. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Ugh!.....your Minnesota temps have made its way to Georgia.
    I suppose I will be out in it later this morning. Current temp is 37 F and with the 15 to 20 mph winds they say it is 30 F. It supposed to warm a little.

    I was out in summer wear yesterday. I want to finish today with another ~150 TSS effort and I don't think I will do that inside on the rollers.

    Actually I typically get overheated in my light winter clothing. I think the wind is going to be more of the issue. NW headwinds on the way out will help with sustaining power output, but the tailwind on the way back could make it a challenge to sustaining power. It could be a really fast return.
     
  15. frost

    frost New Member

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    What kind of CTL you guys hit at the moment? What was is at the end of summer? What sort of number and ramp rate you plan for next spring/summer/whatever is the "season" start? (sorry for the North-centric view).

    I peaked at 95TSS/d at the end of July a couple of weeks prior to my "main event". Based on previous years I can handle quite steep ramp rates but if I stay for too long in high volumes (>90TSS/d for me) I start to burn mentally even the watt-numbers may look good. So now a bit under 60 and trying to maintain that level (I do all sorts of grazy stuff like go to gym /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif to keep the volume down) until the end of the year and then start to ramp up to 100-110-level in the first weeks of June (1st main event somewhere in the middle of June), rest and build another peak to August.
     
  16. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I am at 78 CTL as of yesterday and hope to head out in a moment to attempt another day of 150 TSS. After today I will be back to my normal training schedule (holiday time off is over).
    Last year I made it my goal to not slip below 70 CTL during the winter months and that was a challenge. It helped me in the spring because I did not feel rushed to push the ramp rate as aggressively. I simply do not progress like some of you guys so I find that in previous years letting my CTL get to 60 it took almost until summer to get into the 80's because I would end up feeling like I was overreaching trying to get there quickly. Another thing is for me having such a low FTP that I feel like my training can be a year round experience trying to improve and I feel like for me that if I back off then I am backing off of that goal. When I competed in lifting I never really had an off season. Actually my off season was when I did the hardest and heaviest lifting. I was a time where I would get 25 to 30 lbs over my competition weight so that I could train heavy. So I almost feel like for cycling as if right now is when I need to work on improving FTP.

    Hitting 90 CTL this past summer was the highest I have ever been and I really did feel good at that peak. On one side I was always feeling a bit fatigued, but when it came to performing on the road it was amazing to see what this body could do under that state of fatigue. I guess that is common for you guys that race. On one side there is some fatigue always present, but on the other side there is a higher level of performance.

    But since I do not race things are so different for me than for you guys that have a long race season ahead balancing training and racing stress.
     
  17. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    My CTL peaked in May at 103 and then undulated all summer and then fell in Fall to the 75 it is now. It's a little low now because I just got back from a 1 week vacation in Las Vegas. If I follow what I did last year, I will only ride outside when weather permits and run outside otherwise. Last year my CTL dipped to 22 in early March before I started training again. My first event was on May 1: a 50 mile Gran Fondo. The books I have read and the personal accounts on this forum suggest that I should do a lot more training in the winter. Also, I want to do a 105 mile hilly gravel grinder race in April next year (6+ hours non-supported on gravel roads). So I think I need to force myself to use the trainer and try to keep my CTL above some magic number. I think I will figure out that number after I determine my tolerance for the trainer. Hopefully I can shoot for 50-60.
     
  18. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    Ya, a nasty cold front just went through here. It went from 60F to 30F during daylight on Thursday. It was about 27F and windy when I road last night and it was debacle. I started out by making a wrong turn and getting lost for a bit. Everything was fine riding with the wind, but when I turned around into the wind it got very cold and I discovered I had underdressed. My forehead got that burning pain you get from a cold wind on exposed skin. Tried to take a drink, but my water bottle was froze. Then half way through I got a flat. I was seriously cold by the time I got the tube changed. My hands and feet were going numb, so I decided it best to jog a until my core temp went up. I was finally able to get back on the bike, but it was already getting dark. Luckily I had lights, but I really didn't intend to be out after dark. 15 minutes later I discovered I forgot to turn my Garmin on. Doh! In the end. I made it home safe. I'll need to tune my dressing habits for the next ride in <32F weather. I find its easy to forget how to dress appropriately after a year.
     
  19. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    One thing that caught my attention in Physiology of Sport and Exercise is that strength gains made during intense strength training can be maintained with a reduced workload (e.g. 50%). This suggests that I could ramp up my strength training during the off-season (e.g. 2/week) and maintain my gains during the season with a lower workload (e.g. 1/week).
     
  20. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Are you trolling or do you really want to turn this into yet another debate on strength training for cyclists? It seems that dead horse has been flogged enough in other recent threads. Do we have to go there here as well?
     
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