90 watts in 22 weeks

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by Freddy Merxury, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Good catch, Dave. I agree entirely with your caution about using data points that are recent and truly max efforts. This is one reason that I prefer the MMP protocol of riding at a constant power to exhaustion. I get a good data point (assuming I am relatively fresh) every time. BTW, Freddy, I think your big jump in your 20MMP demonstrates that doing L4s at the low end of the L4 level (~90%FTP) will result in the desired adaptation. If I have read your recent posts correctly, you have been doing your 20min efforts at about 275W. I actually don't think you need to increase your intensity to reach your year-end goal. I would favor increasing volume at 275W (e.g., adding a 3rd 20min effort or doing 2x30) over increasing intensity.
     


  2. Freddy Merxury

    Freddy Merxury New Member

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    Agree. I've been considering adding the extra 20' a couple of times but I wanted to see how my legs handled a full week of 2 first. I also think the longer 2 hour rides at 230w ish I've been doing on the weekends have been helpful in overall fitness.
     
  3. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    I agree with what Freddy advised above, but to put a little more context into it you might have a look at this: http://www.freewebs.com/velodynamics2/rcgtp1.pdf

    But basically it comes down to balancing as much 'quality work' each week with sufficient recovery so that you can do more all within your available training time constraints. Defining 'quality work' is typically the trick but in this context(riders with perhaps 8 to 14 max hours per week to train per week on a regular basis) it comes down to either hard but submaximal (e.g. 90%) focused efforts for mid durations like 15 to 40 minutes each (e.g. classic 2x20 L4 work) or longer efforts backed off a bit further that still give some training benefit and build load but allow you to partially recover so you can do the more focused efforts on subsequent days (e.g. classic 90 minute to multi hour Tempo/SST rides). Lather rinse, repeat for many weeks with the occasional softer week to come up for air which often happens as the result of work/family/holiday sort of stuff and you'll see results.

    All that is about base building and FTP/Training load progress. Race prep and race specialization is a slightly different topic but Charles' guide above discusses that as well as does any approach that starts by considering the particular rider's strengths and weaknesses as well as the demands of their target events to figure out what icing to put on the FTP/CTL cake you've baked.

    -Dave
     
  4. MichaelHelton

    MichaelHelton New Member

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    Thank you sir!
     
  5. James SA

    James SA New Member

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    I understand all the focus on raising functional threshold but what about building aerobic endurance? Is targeting 20 and 60 minute CP enough?
     
  6. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    I've wondered that too. Joe Friel talks about a skill called "endurance", but I have never read of any physiological adaptation to relate to it. Physiologist don't have a great handle on the causes of fatigue, so it could be that they just haven't found the magic adaptation. My plan is to get in some longer lower intensity (3-4 hours at 75-80% FTP) rides on the weekends to mix things up. I made the mistake of riding with the club today with a falling TSB and I got totally wonked. I was off the back in the pain locker more than I care to remember. Lesson learned: only ride with them when fresh. A nice longer solo ride would have fit better into the plan, but it was so warm out, 40F, that I wanted to make the most of it.
     
  7. frost

    frost New Member

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    It doesn't matter what exactly causes the fatigue, you have the remedy. The "magic" would be higher ftp so that you can ride at lower percentage and high overall training load and long history of riding that improves efficiency. You can have a good endurance without actually riding long rides and raising threshold is building aerobic endurance.
     
  8. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    The question is wether longer low intensity rides cause different adaptations than 20-60 min SST intervals. Is there an "endurance" adaptation that you get from longer rides that you don't get from 20-60 min SST rides? There is none except glycogen stores on the adaptation chart in training and racing with a power meter, but I wonder if there isn't more to the story.
     
  9. frost

    frost New Member

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    Yes, and if you believe the folks "that know their stuff" like Andy Coggan the adaptations are the same, it's just the question of magnitude.

    Overall training plan, available time, target training load then guide the exact planning. If you have all the time in the world then probably you can handle higher training load with more hours at lower intensity.
     
  10. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    I should clarify that physiologists don't have a good grasp of long term fatigue (>60 min or so). Shorter term fatigue resulting from depleting atp and creatine stores and the effect of the build up of waste products seems better understood; At least to my layman mind.
     
  11. frost

    frost New Member

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    We don't exactly know what causes gravity but it hasn't stopped human kind from landing to moon decades ago...
     
  12. davereo

    davereo Well-Known Member

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    You need to try different riding kit.
     
  13. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    I think you're just messing with me, but we certainly understand gravity a lot better than exercise fatigue. :) Anyway, do you have an answer for the original question? Your response suggests you think the answer is obvious, but I think there are at least 2 of us that don't think it is obvious. Are longer rides important?
     
  14. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Enough for what? Enough to finish a 45 minute crit, probably, enough to ride a two hour road race, maybe, enough to expect to do well during a 24 hour MTB marathon, probably not or even enough to fill out your training week on days when you ride with less intensity but still want the overall workload maybe, maybe not depending on your available time to train and what you're doing on different days.

    If all you have is an hour each day to train then use it in the best ways you can. If you have more time some days then some longer rides will almost certainly help with your base and overall fitness not to mention fatigue resistance for longer efforts and things like increased glycogen storage not to mention simple saddle time and more time out riding the bike and developing things like handling skills. That's one of the big problems I have with pure HIIT programs based on a literal implementation of things like the Tabata protocol, it may deliver many of the fitness benefits that is traditionally built with longer sustained rides but in the end we ride our bikes for hours or more at a time and it takes saddle time to become a good bike rider, hard to do that on a couple of three minute intervals no matter how intensely their ridden and hard to believe that those super intense short sessions will prepare you for long days in the saddle no matter what your lab tested FTP looks like.

    -Dave
     
  15. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    Good information as always, Dave. One thing that long hours in the saddle has done for me (I think) is increase the damage resistance of my soft tissues. I can ride harder and longer without risk of tendonitas and muscle strains. I'm skeptical that these effects have anything to do with aerobic adaptations like mitochondria density. It's not clear that these adaptations help me win races, but they allow me to train harder. You're going to shoot me for bringing this next item up. I wonder if one possible benefit of strength training in the off season is increased soft tissue damage resistance. Besides being linked to injury prevention, muscle damage has been linked to long term fatigue during endurance events.
     
  16. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Nahhh, not worth the effort. But I'd suggest that if cycling is leading to soft tissue damage you may have a bike fit or even a cleat wedge/shim issue as cycling on a well fitted bike shouldn't lead to soft tissue acute or overuse injuries, but if you've had trouble in those areas and have found ways to minimize those problems then more power to you.

    -Dave
     
  17. gudujarlson

    gudujarlson New Member

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    Ya my past injuries seem more typical for runners than cyclists. I might be an outlier. However, the fatigue review paper that frost referred me to does have a section on muscle damage caused by cycling.
     
  18. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Longer rides can increase your longer duration MMP relative to your shorter duration MMP in the aerobic range. For example, if I don't do 2-3hr rides, my 120MMP is only about 90% of my 60MMP (FTP), at best. If I do 2-3hr rides several times a week, I can increase this relationship to about 95%. But, this doesn't necessarily translate to longer rides at constant power. I think you'd see better results with a set of L4 efforts with recovery segments as necessary. For example, I'd advocate 3 x 35min at 91%+FTP + 5min recovery as compared with 120min at, say, 80%FTP.
     
  19. frost

    frost New Member

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    I am not messing but rather think of it as extra motivation. You can fly to the moon even if you don't understand all the mechanisms involved to the smallest detail, just enough and then do what works!

    I don't have a yes no answer to the question especially when put that simply. You have to consider whole lot of variables that have been already discussed, like goals, targets, personal ambitions, motivation, talent profile, available training time, environment (-10 deg celcius + 20cm of new snow this morning). And even under simpliest conditions I definetely do not claim to understand the underlying physiological mechanisms so the only answer I can give is that if you have available time, you enjoy those long rides (that's about the best thing you can do on a bike on nice summer day with a group of good friends) and you can fit them to your training program then do them. If not then don't take a huge stress because if you have an otherwise balanced training program which gives you adequate volume then the effect is probably so small that at least at the point of your cycling career you don't have to worry about it.
     
  20. James SA

    James SA New Member

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    Thanks Guys the feedback is great. So CP5 represents max aerobic capacity, we train CP20 to within 90% of CP5, we train CP60 to within 90% of CP20, we train CP120 to within 90% of CP60 and so it goes until we reach the duration at which we compete. My next question is do we train all these duration together or do we organize them into a season (Periodization). If we must periodize, then in what order? traditional seasonal plans that I have read make longer duration a priority (base) then CP20/CP60 duration (build) and finally CP5 duration (peak). Alternatively we train them together by focusing on all short duration during the week when we have time constraints then longer duration on weekends. Is our bodies capable of dealing with all the relevant adaption simultaneously or are they essentially the same adaption and can be learned together. My own season will involve 2 "A" road races of 100km each (spread 8 months apart) and one multi-day mtb stage race.
     
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