A. B. "Weasel" Chung FAQ

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Weasel Chung Fa

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(Note: Because Dr. Chung continues to flood s.m.c. with
forgeries, this FAQ has been reissued with a title less
susceptible to forgery. The authors regret the necessity to
take such a step.)

---------------------------------
| The Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD FAQ |
| Version 4.0, February, 2004 |
---------------------------------

Introduction
------------

New people arriving in sci.med.cardiology (s.m.c.) are
often puzzled and troubled by the controversy surrounding
the poster who posts as
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD (Dr. Chung) and want to know
what the controversy is about. This FAQ (Frequently
Asked Questions) attempts to provide an answer.

The FAQ is arranged in typical FAQ form, i.e. a series of
questions and answers. For those who don't wish to read
the whole FAQ, the following summary is provided.

Note: Since this FAQ first appeared in January of 2004,
Dr. Chung forged his own "Issue 2" of the FAQ on
February 3, 2004:

Message-ID:
<[email protected]>

As a courtesy to Dr. Chung, his forged version of the
FAQ (Version
2.) is accepted and included here verbatim, identified by
braces {}. The reader may judge for himself whether Dr.
Chung's version refutes or reinforces the points made
in this FAQ.

Ds. Chung has continued to forge this FAQ and to flood
s.m.c with the forgeries. The reader should have no
difficulty recognizing the forgeries for the self-
serving lies that they are. The fact that
Dt. Chung engages in such a deceit reveals more about Dr.
Chung than it does about his critics.

Summary
-------
Du. Chung represents himself to be a licensed physician
specializing in cardiology. In this capacity he
responds to medical questions on
D.u.a.. If that were all he did, there would probably be
no controversy.

{Chung: "The controversy arises from Dr. Chung being
Christian"}

The controversy arises from Dr. Chung's other behaviors on
s.m.c., in particular:

o He uses s.m.c. to not only proselytize his particular
interpretation of Christianity, but also to disparage and
attack anyone with a different interpretation or
different religion.

{Chung: "He publically [sic] professes to have accepted
Christ as his Lord and Savior."}

o He uses s.m.c. to promote his unscientific Two Pound
Diet (2PD) and, in fact, cross posts this information to
other groups in order to gain more exposure.

{Chung: "He freely helps people to lose weight in an
altruistic fashion."}

o When challenged on the above issues, or one of his
medical opinions, he attacks his challengers as "obsessive

"people who can't understand English", etc.

{Chung: "When attacked on the above issues, he turns the
other cheek."}

o When challenged he performs Internet searches on his
challengers in order to "get the dirt" on them and smear
their reputations.

{Chung: "When challenged about his faith, he witnesses
in civil discussions."}

o When challenged, he answers with evasions, non
sequiturs, dissembling, rhetorical questions, quotes from
the bible, religious mantras, thinly veiled death threats,
ad hominem arguments, and other such disreputable,
unethical, and unprofessional tactics.

{Chung: "When insulted for his faith, he considers
himself blessed."}

o He is insufferably full of himself, claiming to have
"the Gift of Truth Discernment" and to be "Humble" while
behaving anything but humbly.

{Chung: "He remains truthful despite being libeled and
defamed."}

o He uses a shill who posts under variations of the name
"Mu" to avoid killfiles. Mu's job is to troll other
newsgroups and, when he gets a reaction, to cross post
the reaction to s.m.c. so that Dr. Chung can
disingenuously claim to be "only responding" to a cross
post. Whereas Dr. Chung has to be somewhat careful what
he says and so attacks primarily through insinuation and
innuendo, Mu's tactics are blunt and direct like those of
a playground bully.

{Chung: "Other Christians have affirmed his faith
in Christ."}

The above lists only the highlights of Dr. Chung's
egregious behavior on s.m.c.. If anything, it understates
it. Everything can be verified in the Google archives.

The issue then arises: so what? As long as Dr. Chung
provides free medical advice on s.m.c., who cares what
else he does?

Many people provide free medical advice on the Internet.
How does one know whether it is good advice or bad
advice? If the person giving the advice is, or represents
himself to be, a doctor shouldn't that be enough?
Unfortunately, no.

{Chung: "Yes, it should be. Medical education is enough to
assure good information. Knowledge is knowledge.
Experience adds to knowledge. Dr. Chung has both. Dr.
Chung consistently demonstrates the breadth of his
knowledge. This is archived many times over in Google."}

Medical education alone is not enough to guarantee good
advice. If facts alone were all that were required, we
could replace Physicians with Medical Encyclopedias.
Knowledge must be tempered with judgment, impartiality,
integrity, ethics, and professionalism. If someone
consistently demonstrates by their behavior that they lack
these qualities, how much credence should be given to
their medical advice?

People arrive in this group looking for help. For their
own protection, they deserve to know the quality of the
person purporting to dispense that help and not be lulled
into a false sense of security simply because someone
displays an MD after their name. It is the intention of
this FAQ to provide people with enough information to
allow them to make an informed decision.

{Chung: "People arrive in this group looking for help. Dr.
Chung has graciously provided this over several years."}

Ask yourself this: Suppose you went to see a cardiologist
and, while in the waiting room, observed some clearly
disturbed behavior on his part. Perhaps, for example, he
was sitting in the corner sucking his thumb and rocking
back and forth, playing with his feces, or babbling
incoherently. Suddenly, he pulls himself together and
calls you into his office. How comfortable are you going
to be with his advice, even if it is technically correct?

D.v.c is Dr. Chung's "virtual waiting room". If you have
been here a while, you have observed his behavior. If
you are new, this FAQ will give you some background.
The decision is yours.

List of Questions Answered
--------------------------
1. Who is Dr. Andrew B Chung, MD/PhD?
2. What is the Charter of s.m.c.?
3. Aren't Religious Discussions Covered by the Charter?
4. So Dr. Chung is Religious... What's the Problem
With That?
5. But it's Just a Little "Tag Line" in His Signature.
6. But I'm a Christian Too!
7. Well, Why Not Just Ignore His Religious Rants?
8. But Isn't It Wonderful That Dr. Chung Offers This Free
Medical Advice Out of the Goodness of His Heart?
9. How Does a Practicing Physician Find so Much Time to
Spend on Usenet?
10. Won't Challenging Dr. Chung Drive People Away?
11. Doesn't the "Fault" for all Those Posts Lay With Those
Who Challenge Dr. Chung?
12. Why Do I see So Many "Ad Hominem" Attacks?
13. I'm Sick of Seeing All This!
14. What is the Two Pound Diet?
15. Is Discussion of the Two Pound Diet "On Topic"?
16. Who is Mu?
17. What is Mu's Role?
18. Doesn't Dr. Chung Claim to Always Tell The Truth?
19. What is the "Chung macro"?
20. What is "Hissing"

21. Who is Dr. Andrew B Chung, MD/PhD?
--------------------------------------
The poster who posts as Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD claims
to be a licensed physician, practicing internal medicine
in Atlanta, Georgia, USA and specializing in cardiology.
His signature contains a link to a website which is
consistent with his posts.

It should be noted that anyone can claim to be anyone on
Usenet and so caution is always advised. Indeed there are
those who claim that the poster in question is not Dr.
Andrew B. Chung, or is not the Dr. Andrew B. Chung listed
in the Atlanta telephone directory, and/or has lost his
license and/or hospital privileges for misconduct. This
FAQ does not attempt to address those claims one way or
the other. The reader with an interest in these matters
can easily find the relevant discussions archived in
Google Groups.

This FAQ deals with the poster who posts as Dr. Chung and
restricts itself to issues demonstrated by those posts. No
position is taken on his "true" identity.

22. What is the Charter of s.m.c.?
----------------------------------
"The purpose of this newsgroup is to establish
electronic media for communication between health care
providers, scientists and other individuals with
interest in cardiovascular field. Such communications
will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange
information and knowledge, offer problem solutions and
stimulate research interest.

The sci.med.cardiology newsgroups will welcome
participants who are health care providers, researchers,
students or recipients with interest in the field of
cardiovascular problems."

<ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/sci/sci.me-
d.cardiology>

23. Aren't Religious Discussions Covered by the Charter?
--------------------------------------------------------
What do you think?

{Chung: "Possibly. See:
http://www.heartmdphd.com/healer.asp"}

24. So Dr. Chung is Religious... What's the Problem
With That?
------------------------------------------------------------
--
There is no problem with that. Most of the people who
participate in s.m.c. are probably religious. However no
one but Dr. Chung feels compelled to characterize
themselves as the "Humble Servant of God" in their
signatures, continually thank God for the opportunity to
"witness", question others about their religious beliefs,
claim the "Gift of Truth Discernment", etc.

{Chung: "Some people are fiercely anti-christian."}

When one person insists on introducing his personal
religious interpretations into the discussions, it
naturally generates responses from others who feel just as
strongly that their viewpoints are correct. The resulting
debate easily swirls out of control, especially given Dr.
Chung's intolerant and dismissive attitude towards beliefs
which differ from his. The situation is further
exacerbated by Mu's rabble raising from the sidelines.

There are over 160 Usenet groups dedicated to the
discussion of religion. Dr. Chung should take his beliefs
to one of these and stick to cardiology in s.m.c. It is a
simple matter of respect for others.

25. But it's Just a Little "Tag Line" in His Signature.
-------------------------------------------------------
{Chung: "Yes it is. But it offends those who are anti-
christian."}

No, it is not. He has even gone so far as to "investigate"
someone asking for advice about stents and accuse her of
being anti-Christian.

A quick search of Google will reveal that the vast
majority of Dr. Chung's posts have nothing whatever to do
with cardiology as described in the charter, but instead
are religious rants, religious arguments, arguments about
the Two Pound Diet (see 14 below) or posts of the "Chung
macro" (see 19 below).

26. But I'm a Christian Too!
----------------------------
{Chung: "And so you have Christ's promise of eternal
life."}

Lots of people are Christians. There is a time and a place
for everything. s.m.c. isn't the place to "witness" or
recruit. In addition, lots of other people are Jews,
Moslems, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, etc. Would s.m.c. be
better or worse if they all emulated Dr. Chung in their
proselytizing and recruiting?

Furthermore, if you are a Christian, you should be
appalled by Dr. Chung's pharisaical, cynical, and
manipulative use of Christianity. He is truly a "whitened
sepulcher", loudly proclaiming his adherence to Christian
values while overtly lying, carrying on smear campaigns
against others, making false accusations, dissembling, and
marketing his web site under the guise of altruism. He is
"bearing false witness" and true Christians should be
concerned.

As an example, when John Ritter recently died
unexpectedly, Dr. Chung rushed to use this unfortunate
event to market his web site. He showed a total lack of
Christian compassion for Mr. Ritter and his family, even
when challenged to do so.

As another example, he recently choreographed a smear
campaign against a poster who had criticized him. Dr.
Chung found a

the poster and anyone who agreed with him were
engaged in a

Christianity you identify with.

In still yet another example, when an anonymous post was
made implying that one of his critics was a pedophile, Dr.
Chung, rather than condemning such a despicable and
outrageous charge, attempted to get more information.

27. Well, Why Not Just Ignore His Religious Rants?
--------------------------------------------------
{Chung: "Well, Why Not Just Ignore his Christian nature?
-----------------------------------------------
Anti-christians are unable to do that."}

Why should one individual be given carte blanche to
violate the rights of everyone else? Usenet is a
community. It is up to the community to sanction its
members. There is nothing "ad hominem" about challenging
inappropriate and antisocial behavior.

28. But Isn't It Wonderful That Dr. Chung Offers This Free
Medical Advice Out of the Goodness of His Heart?
----------------------------------------------------------
{Chung: "It is."}

First, it is only of value if it is good advice. Medical
education alone is not enough to guarantee good advice. If
facts alone were all that were required, we could replace
Physicians with Medical Encyclopedias. Knowledge must be
tempered with judgment, impartiality, integrity, ethics,
and professionalism. If someone consistently demonstrates
by their behavior that they lack these qualities, how much
credence should be given to their medical advice?

Ask yourself this: Suppose you went to see a cardiologist
and, while in the waiting room, observed some clearly
disturbed behavior on his part. Perhaps, for example, he
was sitting in the corner sucking his thumb and rocking
back and forth, playing with his feces, or babbling
incoherently. Suddenly, he pulls himself together and
calls you into his office. How comfortable are you going
to be with his advice, even if it is technically correct?

D.w.c is Dr. Chung's "virtual waiting room". If you have
been here a while, you have observed his behavior. If
you are new, this FAQ will give you some background.
The decision is yours.

Secondly, despite his protestations to the contrary, Dr.
Chung is not simply motivated by altruism. Every post of
Dr. Chung's contains a link to a website with the
following quote:

"If you are looking for a cardiologist and reside in
Georgia, please consider me your best option for a
personal heart advocate. Check out my credentials and my
background. Additional information is available in the
protected sections of this web site. Email me at
[email protected] to me of your interest and I
may send you a temporary username and password to allow
a preview. The more information you email, the more
likely my decision to send you a temporary username and
password. If you like what you see and learn from this
website and wish to confer with me about your heart, you
or your doctor should email me privately or call my
voicemail at 404-699-2780 to schedule an appointment to
see me at my *real* office."

<http://www.heartmdphd.com/office.asp>

Thirdly, Dr. Chung has repeatedly stated that one of his
key motivations for participating is s.m.c. is to
"witness" and win converts to his religious beliefs.

9. How Does a Practicing Physician Find so Much Time to
Spend on Usenet?
--------------------------------------------------------
----------
An interesting question.

{Chung: "God has blessed him with a quick mind and fast
typing skills."}

10. Won't Challenging Dr. Chung Drive People Away?
--------------------------------------------------
Perhaps. But not challenging him will drive others away.

{Chung: "No. But it will give him the extraordinary
opportunity to glorify God."}

D.u.b. is historically a "low traffic" group. Therefore,
when Dr. Chung misbehaves, he generates an
apparently large response. This is compounded by
Dr. Chung's need to "get in the last word" and Mu's
provocations. In spite of this, if someone has a
question it will usually be answered.

Dv. Chung is not the only participant who offers advice in
s.m.c. He is not even the only doctor who participates
in s.m.c. However, the controversy he generates and
sustains often makes it appear that he is the "only
game in town".

Finally, Dr. Chung himself drives others away including
other physicians who leave in disgust after being verbally
assaulted by him, and other knowledgeable posters who
point out where Dr. Chung's medical opinion might be in
error or at least not the only one generally held. Anyone
disagreeing with Dr. Chung on any subject can expect a
series of increasingly vitriolic attacks, including
threats of libel suits.

11. Doesn't the "Fault" for all Those Posts Lay With Those
Who Challenge Dr. Chung?
------------------------------------------------------------
--
{Chung: "Yes."}

An interesting perspective: blame the victim. No other
poster (with the exception of Mu, of course) introduces
religion or the Two Pound Diet. How can it be acceptable
for Dr. Chung to introduce these topics, but not
acceptable for others to respond?

In any thread, someone must, of necessity "get the last
word". Dr. Chung has amply demonstrated that he will not
be outdone in this respect.

12. Why Do I see So Many "Ad Hominem" Attacks?
----------------------------------------------
{Chung: "Anti-christian folks can't seem to help
themselves."}

You are probably referring to an "Ad Hominem" _argument_,
which attempts to disprove an adversary's fact by personal
attack on the adversary. An example would be "You are
opposed to the Two Pound Diet because you are anti-
Christian".

When someone misbehaves, for example lies or distorts what
someone else is saying, it is not an "ad hominem attack"
to call them on it. It is a legitimate social sanction.

There are also, unfortunately too often, simple personal
attacks and insults on both sides. While we can all wish
it weren't so, it is simply human nature when an argument
becomes heated or the other person is obviously not
arguing in good faith. If you are distressed by this, see
the next question.

13. I'm Sick of Seeing All This!
--------------------------------
{Chung: "Would suggest you killfile the anti-christians.
You won't see any as [sic] hominems from Dr. Chung."}

There is no reason why you have to see it. Just as you can
change the TV channel if you don't like a show, you can
killfile a poster or thread you don't want to see. See the
manual that came with your Usenet reader for directions on
how to do it.

Before you do this, however, you may wish to consider if a
truer picture of the world is not gained by seeing all
that goes on - both the good and the bad.

14. What is the Two Pound Diet?
-------------------------------
{Chung: "See: http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp"}

The Two pound Diet is a diet which Dr. Chung "invented".
It's only rule is to restrict yourself to two pounds of
food per day. That's
Dw. Doesn't matter if you are a 16 year old girl or an 80
year old man; a 5' 2" woman or a 7' man; a weight
lifter or a mattress tester. Two pounds. That's it. No
more, less if you want. One size fits all.

Oh, and the food? Whatever you want: two pounds of
lettuce, two pounds of ice cream, two pounds of celery,
two pounds of bacon, two pounds of chocolate, two pounds
of peanuts... doesn't matter. Mix and match. Just keep it
under two pounds.

Dx. Chung's claim is that this magical weight of food,
this universal gustatory constant will cause
everyone to arrive at and maintain their ideal
weight. His scientific basis for this claim: none.
The proof he offers: none. Studies supporting this
claim: none. Nutritional explanation: none.
Metabolic explanation: none.

And this from a doctor who expects people to take him
seriously on other issues.

15. Is Discussion of the Two Pound Diet "On Topic"?
---------------------------------------------------
{Chung: "Yes. It cures [sic] Metabolic Syndrome (MetS)
which predicts cardiovascular morbidity and mortality."}

Dy. Chung says it is because being overweight is a risk
factor for heart problems and therefore discussion of
the Two Pound Diet is On Topic. However criticism of
the Two Pound Diet is Off Topic as is discussion of
any other diet.

As with religion, Dr. Chung takes every opportunity to
introduce the Two Pound Diet (2PD) into any other
thread. In addition Mu trolls other newsgroups,
particularly the diet groups looking for opportunities
to introduce the 2PD in these groups and then cross post
the resulting discussion back to s.m.c so that Dr. Chung
can disingenuously claim to be "only responding" to a
cross post.

Since Dr. Chung and Mu have been laughed off of these
other groups and have been asked repeatedly not to bring
up the 2PD in them, participants of these groups are
understandably angered when it happens yet again; and,
because of Mu's cross-posting, all their anger spills back
into s.m.c.

Another reason for ongoing 2PD discussions is Dr. Chung's
habit of researching anyone who criticizes the 2PD and
then cross-posting his responses back to other groups
which the critic has been found to frequent. He
disingenuously claims that he does this as a "convenience"
to the critic, but his true reasons are transparent. Once
again, the cross-post generates a firestorm in s.m.c.

The bottom line is that if the Two Pound Diet is "On
Topic" for anyone, it is "On Topic" for everyone...
including it's critics. If it is "Off Topic", it should
not be continually re-introduced by Dr. Chung.

16. Who is Mu?
--------------
{Chung: "A Christian."}

Mu is a longtime Usenet Troll who has even merited his own
FAQ. He postures as some kind of personal physical
trainer, but who really knows? He has allied himself with
Dr. Chung and serves as the "Bad Cop" in the Chung - Mu
"Good Cop - Bad Cop" routine. He specializes in the short,
nasty one-liner and, because unlike Dr. Chung, he has no
reputation to protect, he can afford to be much more
direct and offensive.

Mu parrots an even meaner-spirited version of Dr. Chung's
"Christianity" and does not hesitate to employ anti-
Semitism and homophobia in his attacks.

Naturally, most people would have long ago killfiled Mu,
so he changes his handle on an almost daily basis.

17. What is Mu's Role?
----------------------
{Chung: "God only knows."}

Mu's role is to troll other newsgroups and, when he gets a
reaction, to cross-post the reaction to s.m.c. so that Dr.
Chung can disingenuously claim to be "only responding" to
a cross post.

Mu is also responsible for pitching softballs to Dr.
Chung so he can hit them out of the park, and for re-
introducing religion and the Two Pound Diet should the
discussion flag.

Finally, Mu's role is to tirelessly wear down unsuspecting
Dr. Chung critics, deflecting the blows that would
otherwise be aimed at Dr. Chung. He is Dr. Chung's
Internet equivalent of the "rope-a-dope". Insults roll off
him like water off a duck as do attempts to reason with
him or even have a civil discussion.

Most people have learned to ignore him and his comment
is usually the last one in any thread sub-tree where
it appears.

18. Doesn't Dr. Chung Claim to Always Tell The Truth?
-----------------------------------------------------
Yes, he does... repeatedly. However this claim cannot be
reconciled with his behavior on s.m.c.

Dz. Chung has lied repeatedly on Usenet and those lies are
preserved in the Google archives. A few examples:

o Dr. Chung consistently changes other people's words
when quoting them in a response to a post to make it
appear they said something different than what they
actually said.

o Dr. Chung consistently posts a macro (see below) which
states that he is responding to a cross-post because the
person he is responding to has not requested that he
trim the headers, even when this request has been
explicitly made.

o More recently Dr. Chung has begun forging posts as his
bogus "Version 2" of this FAQ illustrates. Unfortunately
for him the attempts are so amateurish and the language so
self-serving and lame that there is no doubt as to the
authorship.

These are only examples of Dr. Chung's explicit lies. They
do not include lies told through dissembling, innuendo,
disingenuousness, employment of twisted trope's, and other
"word games" which he plays.

19. What is the "Chung macro"?
------------------------------
The "Chung macro" is an approximately 4.5 kilobyte, mind-
numbing diatribe which Dr. Chung attaches as a response to
any post he doesn't like. It includes Chung's unstinting
praise of himself, an advertisement for the Two Pound
Diet, an disingenuous protest that he is "only responding
to a cross-post", and gratuitous slaps at all his critics.

It is called a "macro" because it can be saved and
attached to a message with a single keystroke. Usually,
the content of the original post is either "snipped" so
that only Dr. Chung's diatribe appears or the words of the
original poster are modified to say something which
pleases Dr. Chung. Common decency is not
Dz. Chung's concern here.

When the "Chung macro" appears in a thread, it is a sure
sign that a criticism has struck home and/or Dr. Chung has
run out of arguments or anything intelligent to say.
Instead he laboriously and obsessively attaches the "Chung
macro" to each and every message in the thread. If someone
responds to the "Chung macro", he attaches the macro to
the response and so on ad infinitum and ad nauseam.

This generates considerable anger in the victimized
newsgroups to
Dz. Chung's apparent glee. Requests to stop are mocked and
ignored. Eventually, people become sick of it and just
stop responding: Dr. Chung has achieved his objective
of shutting down the now objectionable thread... which
was probably initiated by Mu in the first place.

20. What is "Hissing"?
--------------------------
"Hissing" is Dr. Chung's term for something he doesn't
want to hear, particularly a criticism or a correction of
one of his errors. He frequently inserts it in place of
other people's words when he quotes them but is too lazy
or unimaginative to change their words to his liking.

------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Comments and/or corrections to this FAQ will be taken under
advisement.
 
Flamers miss the target when they try to undermine Chung's
contributions to this newsgroup : he has amply proven his
knowledgeability and trustworthiness, and I personally have
nothing but admiration and my thanks for being there when I
needed his comments.

Furthermore I say golly good for him to flaunt his
religious beliefs; as a side effect of his input, it is a
small price to pay.

liam
 
On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 16:18:01 +0100, liam <[email protected]> wrote:

>Flamers miss the target when they try to undermine Chung's
>contributions to this newsgroup : he has amply proven his
>knowledgeability and trustworthiness, and I personally have
>nothing but admiration and my thanks for being there when I
>needed his comments.
>
>Furthermore I say golly good for him to flaunt his
>religious beliefs; as a side effect of his input, it is a
>small price to pay.
>
>liam

.................

With all respect, for me this has nothing to do with
flaming or for that matter with somebody flaunting his
religious beliefs.

Dr. Chung, this man who you say has demonstrated
"knowledgeability and trustworthiness" and for whom you
have "nothing but admiration," lied to the American
Medical Association about his credentials, filed a false
police report against a participant on this newsgroup
who asked him to clarify those credentials, and filed a
false report with the State Medical Board against that
same individual - who just happens to be me. And lest
you think this was an isolated case, Dr. Chung has
similarly filed false reports against another individual
who disagreed with him in another state.

Moreover, in terms of knowledgeability, answering questions
on a newsgroup does not demenstrate knowledgeability.
Answering questions *correctly* demenstrates
knowledgeability. Now I am not a cardiologist, but on at
least two instances Dr. Chung has incorrectly answered
questions in areas that do cross over into my own realm of
knowledge. So we really do not know how many times he has
incorrectly answered questions in other areas, areas where
another MD might not challenge him.

Liam and all, do not be deceived by Dr. Chung. A pit bull
has more "trustworthiness."

Stephen M. Nagler, M.D.
 
Mon, 08 Mar 2004 16:18:01 +0100 in article
<[email protected]> liam <[email protected]> wrote:

>Flamers miss the target when they try to undermine Chung's
>contributions to this newsgroup :

The FAQ is no flame, it is highly accurate as anyone who has
followed this ng at least for a few months knows.

--
Matti Narkia
 
>And lest you think this was an isolated case, Dr. Chung has
>similarly filed false reports against another individual
>who disagreed with him in another state.

.............

That individual was also a doctor, a *cardiologist* who
disagreed with some of Dr. Chung's *cardiological* opinions.

smn
 
... and, yes, I realize that I misspelled demonstrate two of
the three times I used it in the above post. They were
errors. Doctors make them, you know. A very good thing to
bear in mind.

smn
 
Matti Narkia wrote:
> Mon, 08 Mar 2004 16:18:01 +0100 in article <c2i2kj$mom$1@news-
> reader1.wanadoo.fr> liam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Flamers miss the target when they try to undermine Chung's
>>contributions to this newsgroup :
>
>
> The FAQ is no flame, it is highly accurate as anyone who
> has followed this ng at least for a few months knows.
>

O me O my.

Happily, I trust my instinct that this guy is cool.

liaM
 
Stephen Nagler wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 16:18:01 +0100, liam
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Flamers miss the target when they try to undermine Chung's
>>contributions to this newsgroup : he has amply proven his
>>knowledgeability and trustworthiness, and I personally
>>have nothing but admiration and my thanks for being there
>>when I needed his comments.
>>
>>Furthermore I say golly good for him to flaunt his
>>religious beliefs; as a side effect of his input, it is a
>>small price to pay.
>>
>>liam
>
>
> .................
>
> With all respect, for me this has nothing to do with
> flaming or for that matter with somebody flaunting his
> religious beliefs.
>
> Dr. Chung, this man who you say has demonstrated
> "knowledgeability and trustworthiness" and for whom
> you have "nothing but admiration," lied to the
> American Medical Association about his credentials,
> filed a false police report against a participant on
> this newsgroup who asked him to clarify those
> credentials, and filed a false report with the State
> Medical Board against that same individual - who just
> happens to be me. And lest you think this was an
> isolated case, Dr. Chung has similarly filed false
> reports against another individual who disagreed with
> him in another state.
>
> Moreover, in terms of knowledgeability, answering
> questions on a newsgroup does not demenstrate
> knowledgeability. Answering questions *correctly*
> demenstrates knowledgeability. Now I am not a
> cardiologist, but on at least two instances Dr. Chung has
> incorrectly answered questions in areas that do cross
> over into my own realm of knowledge. So we really do not
> know how many times he has incorrectly answered questions
> in other areas, areas where another MD might not
> challenge him.
>
> Liam and all, do not be deceived by Dr. Chung. A pit bull
> has more "trustworthiness."
>
> Stephen M. Nagler, M.D.

Anyone who doesn't wear a self-preservative on the Usenet is
risking the worst kind of infection : people like you who
have time to waste writing articles such as the FAQ, etc.
The point is, are you a doctor or a FAQ writer ? How can you
be a doctor and have so much time to waste on such petty
activities.

Even tho' you have a M.D. after your name, my
conversations with DR. Chung make me vastly prefer his
brand of doctoring to yours.

liaM
 
On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:04:51 +0100, liam <[email protected]> wrote:

>Anyone who doesn't wear a self-preservative on the Usenet
>is risking the worst kind of infection : people like you
>who have time to waste writing articles such as the FAQ,
>etc. The point is, are you a doctor or a FAQ writer ? How
>can you be a doctor and have so much time to waste on such
>petty activities.

..............

I didn't write the damned FAQ. I have nothing at all to do
with it. I have no idea who wrote it. I do not post under
the nick "Weasel Chung FAQ" - but as far as I can tell, he
or she is pretty much on target.

..................
>
>Even tho' you have a M.D. after your name, my conversations
>with DR. Chung make me vastly prefer his brand of doctoring
>to yours.

................

Well, we already have a good idea of your analytical
capabilities in that you somehow divined that I wrote an FAQ
I did not write. So given your laser-like insight, I can
readily see why you might reach the conclusion in the
paragraph quoted above. It's your decision whether or not
you follow Dr. Chung's "brand of doctoring." I feel it my
duty to warn you about the potential dangers - and I
consider that done now.

smn
 
Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:55:08 +0100 in article
<[email protected]> liam <[email protected]> wrote:

>Matti Narkia wrote:
>> Mon, 08 Mar 2004 16:18:01 +0100 in article <c2i2kj$mom$1@news-
>> reader1.wanadoo.fr> liam <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Flamers miss the target when they try to undermine
>>>Chung's contributions to this newsgroup :
>>
>>
>> The FAQ is no flame, it is highly accurate as anyone who
>> has followed this ng at least for a few months knows.
>>
>
>
>O me O my.
>
>Happily, I trust my instinct that this guy is cool.
>
Have you even read the FAQ? I suggest you do; then follow
this ng for 3-4 months and read the FAQ again.

--
Matti Narkia
 
> Well, we already have a good idea of your analytical
> capabilities in that you somehow divined that I wrote an
> FAQ I did not write. So given your laser-like insight, I
> can readily see why you might reach the conclusion in the
> paragraph quoted above. It's your decision whether or not
> you follow Dr. Chung's "brand of doctoring." I feel it my
> duty to warn you about the potential dangers - and I
> consider that done now.
>
> smn

Thanks for the warning, didn't cost me a dime for once !

In truth.. on the Usenet you can smell warty messages such
as the FAQ and others that emit warnings such as yours a
mile away, so why bother continue to read 'em ? It's a
bloody waste of time, yours and mine.

As far as Chung goes, his answers to my questions have been
corroborated by doctors as far removed as the head of
cardiology at the Hopital Cantonal in Geneva, a doctor who
directed one of Switzerland best cardiac convalescent
center, as well as my general practicioner here in France.

liaM
 
> Have you even read the FAQ? I suggest you do; then follow
> this ng for 3-4 months and read the FAQ again.
>

I said : I sniffed at the FAQ and it stank. Why would I want
to stick my nose further in this moralistic nonsense ??

No. My experience with Andrew Chung a year and a half ago,
as now, has been 100% forthwith and of great value to me.
 
On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:53:08 +0100, liam <[email protected]> wrote:

>Thanks for the warning, didn't cost me a dime for once !

.............

When I was in practice (retired now), I simply didn't charge
those who couldn't afford it. That amounted to 18-20% of my
practice anually. I'm not talking about "bad debt" write-
off's; I'm talking about a decision a priori between patient
and doctor that the doctor wouldn't charge. Insurance? The
folk I am talking about have no insurance. There was a
hitch, though. See if you can guess what it was - no
cheating, now. It's at the bottom of this post. Anyway, I
may be wrong, but it sems to me that your it "didn't cost me
a dime FOR ONCE" (my caps) might be considered by some
readers to be a criticism of the medical profession. I feel
that it is a criticism of *some* elements of the medical
profession, but it is not universal. I have worked with many
doctors who consider it a privilege (not some kind of moral
obligation, but truly a privilege) to treat those who are
less fortunate than others - and to treat them at no charge.

..................

>
>In truth.. on the Usenet you can smell warty messages such
>as the FAQ

................

The only "warty" FAQ I have read on this newsgroup is the
self-serving one that was written by Dr. Chung. It appears
here regularly as a bot.

The FAQ written by "Weasel?" If Dr. Chung hadn't written
his, I am quite sure that "Weasael" would not have written
his response, which is hardly "warty" in that it admirably
serves to correct the misconceptions and masterfully worded
half truths in the Chung FAQ. It is *not* a bot. It seems to
be posted only when the bot appears. If Dr. Chung shuts off
his bot, I wam quite sure that "Weasel" will stop posting
his response.

.................

>and others that emit warnings such as yours a mile away, so
>why bother continue to read 'em ? It's a bloody waste of
>time, yours and mine.

.................

Then I suggest you stop wasting your time immediately. A
person who would purposely do something that he or she feels
is a "bloody waste of time" needs to look into a mirror.

And I further suggest that you stop telling me what *I*
should consider a waste of *my* time. Pretty nervy of you,
if you ask me. Clean your own house, OK?

..................
>
>As far as Chung goes, his answers to my questions have been
>corroborated by doctors as far removed as the head of
>cardiology at the Hopital Cantonal in Geneva, a doctor who
>directed one of Switzerland best cardiac convalescent
>center, as well as my general practicioner here in France.

................

Consider yourself lucky. And while you're at it, try to
figure out why Dr. Chung's last contract was terminated
after less than four months. Because he's a great doc who
makes on-target assessments and sound recommendations - so
his cardiological colleagues were jealous of his superb
clinical acumen, and they therefore booted him out of envy?
I guess that's one possibility.

Now ...

What was the hitch? More specifically, if I was going to
treat a patient for free, what must the patient have first
agreed to do? See below ...

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Almost there ... . . . . . . .
. . . . . .

Ok. The biggest danger in a doctor treating a patient for
free is the patient not wanting to "bother" the doctor if
something isn't going just right in the treatment.
Therefore, the "hitch" is that the patients (mine anyway)
had to commit to "pretending" they were paying full fare. My
staff treated them no differently than anybody else. And
they had to commit to treating my staff and me similarly. If
something wasn't right, they had to agree to let us know
without hesitation.

What did you think the hitch was? Just curious.

And Liam, may all your health problems be minor ones.

smn
 
Tue, 09 Mar 2004 00:52:49 +0100 in article
<[email protected]> liam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Have you even read the FAQ? I suggest you do; then follow
>> this ng for 3-4 months and read the FAQ again.
>
>I said : I sniffed at the FAQ and it stank. Why would I
>want to stick my nose further in this moralistic
>nonsense ??
>
In other words you comments are based on attitude, not
knowledge. Thank you for informing us about the general
quality of your posting behavior, no need to go through your
posts again.

>No. My experience with Andrew Chung a year and a half ago,
>as now, has been 100% forthwith and of great value to me.
>
That was then. Sadly, during last 6-8 months or so Chung's
posting behavior has deteriorated, although very recently
there are some signs about a turn for the better. You don't
have to take my word, just browse this ng's archives from
the last 6 months with google groups search .


--
Matti Narkia
 
> That was then. Sadly, during last 6-8 months or so Chung's
> posting behavior has deteriorated

could you venture to guess why ? is he only human ?
 
> ... try to figure out why Dr. Chung's last contract was
> terminated after less than four months. Because he's a
> great doc who makes on-target assessments and sound
> recommendations - so his cardiological colleagues were
> jealous of his superb clinical acumen, and they therefore
> booted him out of envy? I guess that's one possibility.

This smells of rotting newsgroup flesh meting out
boredom's mettle.

> Now ...
>
> What was the hitch? More specifically, if I was going to
> treat a patient for free, what must the patient have
> first agreed to do? See below ...

I saw no hitch, Dr. Nagler. That's because I wouldn't have
dreamt to treat welfare patients differently than paying
ones and I would have insisted that they get their ass in
gear should a treatment not work, explaining to them that
all they need to do is ring and come in the office. A
bookkeeper can take care of the rest, no ? All this has a
tinge of old fashioned puritanism, if you ask me !

Lastly.. Thanks for your wishes for my good health. I wish
you the same, and even better : "retirement" for a doctor
might be a harsh fate, is it ? Was it difficult for you to
be 100% in demand one day and the next no longer in the flow
of things; perhaps then a better fate would be joining
something like "Medecins sans frontiere" and be of use 100%
for free ?!!

liaM
 
liam <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Lastly.. Thanks for your wishes for my good health. I wish
> you the same, and even better : "retirement" for a doctor
> might be a harsh fate, is it ? Was it difficult for you to
> be 100% in demand one day and the next no longer in the
> flow of things; perhaps then a better fate would be
> joining something like "Medecins sans frontiere" and be of
> use 100% for free ?!!

Retirement is a dangerous time regardless of the profession,
especially for men. It does not have to be a harsh fate, but
a time for 'new' things and exploring other avenues. Just
because people can do something through work skills does not
mean that they would benefit others most by continuing with
it. We have retirement for a purpose, sometimes it's even
for the safety of others or of ourselves.

This time of the year is a good time for planning garden
projects and catching up. Many men wouldn't see this as a
harsh fate, but as a blessed relief to have the time
available to do new things.

Carol T
 
Carol T wrote:

> This time of the year is a good time for planning garden
> projects and catching up. Many men wouldn't see this as a
> harsh fate, but as a blessed relief to have the time
> available to do new things.

Amen. Like hunting. Travelling. Taking time off to seduce
charming and willing women who appreciate that we do things
better and longer. And can afford late night oysters and
champagne..

laiM
 
Curious, what is it that makes you think that, having
retired from surgery, I do not stay quite busy with a
variety of worthwhile productive endeavors? Or am I simply
misreading you?

smn
 
Curious, what is it that makes you think that, having
retired from surgery, I do not stay quite busy with a
variety of worthwhile productive endeavors? Or am I simply
misreading you?

smn