A Brilliant Cardiologist Once Wrote......



"M. Schwartz" wrote:

> [email protected] (Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > [email protected] (M. Schwartz) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> >
> > > Baptism? When was the beginning of babies getting baptized? Was it
> > > Jesus' word that babies get baptized? Was it not the fear of mothers
> > > that their babies would not go to heaven if they died because they
> > > were not baptized and so there came baptism for babies? Wasn't the
> > > original baptism done as confirmation that one believed in and
> > > accepted Jesus as the way, and to allow those not from the House of
> > > David to join the "church"?
> >
> > From 1 Peter 3:
> >
> > 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah
> > while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all,
> > were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now
> > saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge
> > of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of
> > Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right
> > hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
> >
> What has that to do with the question?
>

You asked about baptism.

>
> Did Jesus instruct that babies be baptized?

Not according to the Bible.

> Were babies baptized at
> the time when Peter started the church? Answer: No!

So?

>
>
> When did the beginning of babies getting baptized begin? It began a
> few hundred years after the death of Jesus when mothers feared their
> babies would die without being baptized and therefore not get to
> heaven.

So?

>
>
> The baptism was performed so that people could profess their belief
> that Jesus was the savior and that included being dunked in the water
> and "saying" they accepted Jesus as the savior. Babies cannot talk and
> therefore were not baptized. Jesus had a special place in his heart
> for babies and there was no need for them to get baptized. However,
> the concern by mothers brought forth a change from the church a few
> hundred years later. Once again, things are changed not from Jesus but
> by human demand.

Whether folks choose to baptize their babies does not alter God's Word.

For example, though I am Christian, I chose to have my baby dedicated rather than baptized.

>
> What about statues in the church?

What about them?

> Did not God say we are not to
> worship idols or statues?

Yes.

> What is a statue of "virgin" Mary doing in a
> church?

Decoration.

> Did Jesus order that a statue of His mother be placed in
> churches?

No.

> No?

Correct.

> Then why is it there?

Decoration.

> Why can't man follow the word as
> it is said rather than make "adjustments"?
>

Man is inherently sinful.

>
> How do you know Jesus would want a statue of His mother, or Himself,
> placed in churches?
>

What I know comes from the Bible and prayer.

>
> You can say or believe anything you wish to rationalize your belief,
> but the truth remains that you really don't know.
>

See above.

>
> Why is it so difficult for people to follow the words of God without
> adding things that were not ordered?

Folks are inherently sinful.

> Is it just to make it more
> convenient for "believers" to have certain things there?
>

Folks are inherently sinful.

>
> How about the Jehoveh Witnesses? They have no "cross" on their house
> of worship or perhaps meeting place is a better description. They do
> not baptize babies. They do not take blood transfusions. Why?
> Something about the bible saying Thou shall not partake of blood. Sure
> takes a strong belief to dismiss a blood transfusion when death is the
> alternative. Are these Jehoveh Witnesses fanatical or just believers
> in the word following the bible to the letter?
>

Can't speak for Jehovah's Witnesses because I am not one.

>
> All we really know about Jesus comes from the disciples. The disciples
> tell us things that were written many, many years later. How good is
> your memory 30 -50 years after?

Pretty good.

> How did they know anything about
> Jesus' birth or youth?

Presumably from friends and family.

> Why didn't they write who told them of these
> things?

You'll have to ask them when/if you go to Heaven.

>
>
> There is contradiction in accounts of various events because "they"
> were not there and related information from other sources. How
> accurate are these other sources?
>

Accurate enough for God else they would have been kept from making things up.

>
> If they, the disciples knew of such miraculous things like Jesus
> healing lepers, making the blind see, raising the dead, and seeing him
> walk on water, then why were they in doubt? How can anyone be blamed
> for not believing when all we have is the writings of men who differ
> on events?
>

Because we have hindsight.

>
> After the resurection, a man walks alongside some disciples and they
> don't recognize him but later come to realize he was Jesus. Who, could
> be, is. Maybe yes, and?
>

He is risen.

>
> One can only wonder how accurate it is what they write. They tell us
> of things that were obviously told to them; and yet, they do not tell
> us who told them. Why? Why did they not say so-and-so told us...
>

Your doubts will be addressed after you die.

>
> Would you believe the words of a writer today who tells you of things
> that you know he could not of known first hand?

Depends on the writer and the things.

> Would you not demand
> to know his source?
>

Depends on the writer and the things.

>
> Are what they tell us absolutely true?
>

Depends on the writer and the things.

>
> Mel, I don't say yes and I don't say no. I can only say maybe.

You remain in my prayers.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
Larry Blanchard wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
> > Larry Blanchard wrote:
> >
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > [email protected] says...
> > > > > Has it occurred to you that if you had been born in Tibet, you would be
> > > > > exhorting us all to become Buddhists with the same fervor that you now
> > > > > apply to Christianity?
> > > >
> > > > Buddha did not command his followers to do that.
> > > >
> > > Somehow I think you missed the point. Deliberately, I assume :).
> >
> > No. A Buddhist (even if born in Tibet) would typically not exhort Buddhism
> > because it would be contrary to the teachings of Buddha.
> >
> The point I was attempting to make is that someone who so positive that
> their religion is the right one should consider that if they had been
> brought up in another culture, they'd be just as sure that the
> predominant religion in that culture was the correct one.

Maybe so. However, whether or not they would evangelize would depend on their
religious beliefs.

>
> In other words, "belief" and "fact" are not the same thing, so all of us
> should realize that we could be wrong.

To any one person, "belief" and "fact" are inseparable.

>
> Is THAT clear enough for you?

Yes.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "M. Schwartz" wrote:
>
> > [email protected] (Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > > [email protected] (M. Schwartz) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > >
> > > > Baptism? When was the beginning of babies getting baptized? Was it
> > > > Jesus' word that babies get baptized? Was it not the fear of mothers
> > > > that their babies would not go to heaven if they died because they
> > > > were not baptized and so there came baptism for babies? Wasn't the
> > > > original baptism done as confirmation that one believed in and
> > > > accepted Jesus as the way, and to allow those not from the House of
> > > > David to join the "church"?
> > >
> > > From 1 Peter 3:
> > >
> > > 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah
> > > while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all,
> > > were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now
> > > saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge
> > > of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of
> > > Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right
> > > hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
> > >
> > What has that to do with the question?
> >
>
> You asked about baptism.

No, I asked why babies were baptized because they were not in the time
of Jesus.
>
> >
> > Did Jesus instruct that babies be baptized?
>
> Not according to the Bible.

Well? Is it so difficult to go according to the bible? Not for the
Jehoveh Witnesses. You call yourself such a good christian but all you
do is make excuse for everything and continue along the wrong path
according to the scriptures. The Jehoveh Witnesses do not have any
idols or statues in their house of worship or meeting place. They do
not baptize babies. They do not have any cross or symbol on their
"meeting place". They do not wear a cross. They do not take blood
transfusions. Their faith is much stronger than yours. They follow the
teachings of Jesus more than you do.

The term "christians" was non-existent when Jesus walked the earth and
when Peter started the "church". Do you know what the believers in
Jesus were called? I do. How about you?
>
> > Were babies baptized at
> > the time when Peter started the church? Answer: No!
>
> So?
>
> >
> >
> > When did the beginning of babies getting baptized begin? It began a
> > few hundred years after the death of Jesus when mothers feared their
> > babies would die without being baptized and therefore not get to
> > heaven.
>
> So?

Doesn't matter? For a guy who believes the bible you certainly give
lots of leeway.
>
> >
> >
> > The baptism was performed so that people could profess their belief
> > that Jesus was the savior and that included being dunked in the water
> > and "saying" they accepted Jesus as the savior. Babies cannot talk and
> > therefore were not baptized. Jesus had a special place in his heart
> > for babies and there was no need for them to get baptized. However,
> > the concern by mothers brought forth a change from the church a few
> > hundred years later. Once again, things are changed not from Jesus but
> > by human demand.
>
> Whether folks choose to baptize their babies does not alter God's Word.
>
> For example, though I am Christian, I chose to have my baby dedicated rather than baptized.

Oh? Man can do whatever to alter the laws of Jesus as they stood
during his time? The purpose of baptism is professing one's belief in
and accepting Jesus. The baptism of babies shows a cowardly act that
also shows doubt to the one they call Lord. If Jesus thought it
necessary to baptize babies he would have said it be done. The only
reason it began is mothers were afraid their children would die and
not go to heaven.

By what authority does man have to make new laws or change old ones?
Was there a law or order for babies to be baptized according to Jesus?

Now let's have another of your lame excuses.
>
> >
> > What about statues in the church?
>
> What about them?

Still don't get the point? Or is it you don't want to see the point?
Maybe both?
>
> > Did not God say we are not to
> > worship idols or statues?
>
> Yes.
>
> > What is a statue of "virgin" Mary doing in a
> > church?
>
> Decoration.

Ridiculous. Haven't people prayed to the statues? Have not people bent
down and kissed the feet of statues? Not in any church?
>
> > Did Jesus order that a statue of His mother be placed in
> > churches?
>
> No.
>
> > No?
>
> Correct.
>
> > Then why is it there?
>
> Decoration.

Again, ridiculous. You call that an answer? What a joke.
>
> > Why can't man follow the word as
> > it is said rather than make "adjustments"?
> >
>
> Man is inherently sinful.

Man is inherently sinful? Speak for yourself, Dr. Chung, and don't
speak for others.
>
> >
> > How do you know Jesus would want a statue of His mother, or Himself,
> > placed in churches?
> >
>
> What I know comes from the Bible and prayer.

From Prayer? When was the last time you spoke with Jesus?


>
> >
> > You can say or believe anything you wish to rationalize your belief,
> > but the truth remains that you really don't know.
> >
>
> See above.
>
> >
> > Why is it so difficult for people to follow the words of God without
> > adding things that were not ordered?
>
> Folks are inherently sinful.
>
> > Is it just to make it more
> > convenient for "believers" to have certain things there?
> >
>
> Folks are inherently sinful.
>
> >
> > How about the Jehoveh Witnesses? They have no "cross" on their house
> > of worship or perhaps meeting place is a better description. They do
> > not baptize babies. They do not take blood transfusions. Why?
> > Something about the bible saying Thou shall not partake of blood. Sure
> > takes a strong belief to dismiss a blood transfusion when death is the
> > alternative. Are these Jehoveh Witnesses fanatical or just believers
> > in the word following the bible to the letter?
> >
>
> Can't speak for Jehovah's Witnesses because I am not one.

Maybe you should be. They certainly go by the teachings of Jesus more
than your church. But then their religion requires a strong test of
faith and not many can follow. One other thing, they don't speak such
babble as you do in regards to my questions.
>
> >
> > All we really know about Jesus comes from the disciples. The disciples
> > tell us things that were written many, many years later. How good is
> > your memory 30 -50 years after?
>
> Pretty good.

Oh? How old are you? 50? 60? 70? 80? How would you know? Better get to
confession because I think lying is a sin.
>
> > How did they know anything about
> > Jesus' birth or youth?
>
> Presumably from friends and family.
>
> > Why didn't they write who told them of these
> > things?
>
> You'll have to ask them when/if you go to Heaven.
>
> >
> >
> > There is contradiction in accounts of various events because "they"
> > were not there and related information from other sources. How
> > accurate are these other sources?
> >
>
> Accurate enough for God else they would have been kept from making things up.
>
> >
> > If they, the disciples knew of such miraculous things like Jesus
> > healing lepers, making the blind see, raising the dead, and seeing him
> > walk on water, then why were they in doubt? How can anyone be blamed
> > for not believing when all we have is the writings of men who differ
> > on events?
> >
>
> Because we have hindsight.

That says nothing.
>
> >
> > After the resurection, a man walks alongside some disciples and they
> > don't recognize him but later come to realize he was Jesus. Who, could
> > be, is. Maybe yes, and?
> >
>
> He is risen.

Did you see him rise?

>
> >
> > One can only wonder how accurate it is what they write. They tell us
> > of things that were obviously told to them; and yet, they do not tell
> > us who told them. Why? Why did they not say so-and-so told us...
> >
>
> Your doubts will be addressed after you die.

Are you judging me? Okay, we'll check it out later... Hey, you might
be very surprised. Suppose Jesus was just a man and the only God is
the God mentioned by Moses? Now, when you go before God and he asks
Dr. Chung why did you pray to Jesus and not me? You might go someplace
worse than where I go. At least I'm not praying to the wrong person.
>
> >
> > Would you believe the words of a writer today who tells you of things
> > that you know he could not of known first hand?
>
> Depends on the writer and the things.

What a joke. What do you know of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John? Did
you ever speak with them? Have you personal knowledge of where they
got information regarding Jesus' birth and youth?
>
> > Would you not demand
> > to know his source?
> >
>
> Depends on the writer and the things.
>
> >
> > Are what they tell us absolutely true?
> >
>
> Depends on the writer and the things.
>
> >
> > Mel, I don't say yes and I don't say no. I can only say maybe.
>
> You remain in my prayers.

Please don't pray to me. I am just a humble servant of humanity. I
make no claims other than I am a man. The only time I rise is when
getting out of bed.

Mel, eating more fish to enhance brain activity...
 
Mozz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I was born in London, England.
> My predominant 'religion' was Christianity.

Were you Christian?

> I have been a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism for a number of years.
> As far as I am concerned, if anyone finds peace or a sense of well
> being in their chosen religion (regardless of cultural bias) then that
> is wonderful and for that person, clearly it is 'right'.

So you have no spiritual motivation to try to convince someone to
become a Tibetan Buddhist. Is that correct?

> His Holiness the Dalai Lama has often pointed out that people should
> look to their own cultural expressions of faith as thoroughly as
> possible before deciding to practice Buddhism.
> Right and Wrong are too simplistic and blunt an approach to these
> subjects.

Truth is often simple.

> Incidentally, my blood pressure (which was high a few years ago) has
> been lowered to a healthy level without any drugs, but thanks to my
> daily meditation linked to my buddhist practice.
>
> Good luck everyone!

Don't believe in luck. However, your wishing others well is
appreciated.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
 

>> I was born in London, England.
>> My predominant 'religion' was Christianity.
>
>Were you Christian?

Yes I was.

>
>> I have been a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism for a number of years.
>> As far as I am concerned, if anyone finds peace or a sense of well
>> being in their chosen religion (regardless of cultural bias) then that
>> is wonderful and for that person, clearly it is 'right'.
>
>So you have no spiritual motivation to try to convince someone to
>become a Tibetan Buddhist. Is that correct?

That is correct. If someone wished to learn more about buddhism I
would of course be very happy to help them in their endeavour.
My 'spiritual motivation' is to help all sentient beings reach
liberation from suffering.

>
>> His Holiness the Dalai Lama has often pointed out that people should
>> look to their own cultural expressions of faith as thoroughly as
>> possible before deciding to practice Buddhism.
>> Right and Wrong are too simplistic and blunt an approach to these
>> subjects.
>
>Truth is often simple.

Subjective or Objective Truth?
>
>> Incidentally, my blood pressure (which was high a few years ago) has
>> been lowered to a healthy level without any drugs, but thanks to my
>> daily meditation linked to my buddhist practice.
>>
>> Good luck everyone!

All things are products of causes and conditions - some more
favourable than others!
>
>Don't believe in luck. However, your wishing others well is
>appreciated.

Thank you - I wish you well also.
 
"M. Schwartz" wrote:

> <anti-Christian responses snipped>

From Mark 6:
10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any
place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you
leave, as a testimony against them."

<shake, shake, brush, brush... feet are clean>

My participation in these discussions with Mr. Schwartz is over.

http://www.heartmdphd.com/christ.asp

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
Mozz wrote:

> >> I was born in London, England.
> >> My predominant 'religion' was Christianity.
> >
> >Were you Christian?
>
> Yes I was.
>

Are you saying that in the past, you believed Jesus Christ to be your Lord
and Savior?

If so, what changed your heart?

>
> >
> >> I have been a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism for a number of years.
> >> As far as I am concerned, if anyone finds peace or a sense of well
> >> being in their chosen religion (regardless of cultural bias) then that
> >> is wonderful and for that person, clearly it is 'right'.
> >
> >So you have no spiritual motivation to try to convince someone to
> >become a Tibetan Buddhist. Is that correct?
>
> That is correct. If someone wished to learn more about buddhism I
> would of course be very happy to help them in their endeavour.
> My 'spiritual motivation' is to help all sentient beings reach
> liberation from suffering.
>

What do you perceive is the source of this suffering?

>
> >
> >> His Holiness the Dalai Lama has often pointed out that people should
> >> look to their own cultural expressions of faith as thoroughly as
> >> possible before deciding to practice Buddhism.
> >> Right and Wrong are too simplistic and blunt an approach to these
> >> subjects.
> >
> >Truth is often simple.
>
> Subjective or Objective Truth?
>

There is only one truth.

> >
> >> Incidentally, my blood pressure (which was high a few years ago) has
> >> been lowered to a healthy level without any drugs, but thanks to my
> >> daily meditation linked to my buddhist practice.
> >>
> >> Good luck everyone!
>
> All things are products of causes and conditions - some more
> favourable than others!
> >
> >Don't believe in luck. However, your wishing others well is
> >appreciated.
>
> Thank you - I wish you well also.

You are welcome.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 9:35:46 -0400, M. Schwartz wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):

> It is obvious to me you cannot discuss Isaiah 7:10 through 7:14. Any
> intelligent person can plainly see the prophecy was meant for king
> Ahaz. It is clear that God was talking to king Ahaz and Ahaz declined
> to try the Lord and so God gave him a sign anyway. Very simple.

That was the way I took it at the time... but we up here often find Chung
obtuse.

HTH

Ahaz
 

>> >Were you Christian?
>>
>> Yes I was.
>>
>
>Are you saying that in the past, you believed Jesus Christ to be your Lord
>and Savior?
>
>If so, what changed your heart?

I found the teachings and practice of buddhism still maintained the
morality, ethics, compassion and heart of Jesus's teachings, without
the 'literalist / fundamentalist' opinions that still puts many
intelligent people off of taking Christian practice seriously.

Also I feel my 'opinion' of what is meant by God, soul, eternal life,
sin, the history of the compilation of the gospels etc might differ
from yours having read some of your other posts.

Having said that, within many of the monastic contemplative
communities of Christian practice, there is much to be admired.

>

>
>What do you perceive is the source of this suffering?

A mistaken view of reality. Afflictive mind-states brought on by
Attachment, Aversion, Envy and such-like. And a false notion about
self-hood. Buddhism teaches that all things come into being through
previous causes and conditions, and nothing is truly seperate and
intrinsically real in and of itself - everything is empty of intrinsic
existence. Even Quantum Physicists are coming to this same
realization.
>
>>
>> >
>> >> His Holiness the Dalai Lama has often pointed out that people should
>> >> look to their own cultural expressions of faith as thoroughly as
>> >> possible before deciding to practice Buddhism.
>> >> Right and Wrong are too simplistic and blunt an approach to these
>> >> subjects.
>> >
>> >Truth is often simple.
>>
>> Subjective or Objective Truth?
>>
>
>There is only one truth.

Within buddhist thought there are Two Truths.
The Relative or pedagogical truth is the way phenomena manifest and
the interdependency of their evolution.
The Absolute or certain truth refers to the empty nature of this
manifestation. The two truths do not contradict each other; they are
simultaneous.

Take Care.
 

>
>It may feel right but will it deliver the rewards of eternal life?

I do not seek 'eternal life'.


>
>Truth is simple. Words complicate its simplicity. Satan was described
>as one who knew the language well, how to use language and how to
>abuse language for his own gains.

If you look to the history of Christian Thought you will find many
many diverse opinions on what is and what is not Truth.
Are you suggesting these complex debates which forged new
understandings to take the faith forward throughout history were the
work of Satan? Perhaps you are.


>>Incidentally, my blood pressure (which was high a few years ago) has
>>been lowered to a healthy level without any drugs, but thanks to my
>>daily meditation linked to my buddhist practice.
>
>Possible.
>
>How can you be sure?

I experiment. I have high blood pressure and a restless mind. Then I
meditate regularly everyday and continue to monitor the results.
The results strongly suggest my blood pressure has lowered due to my
practice.
Do you dispute that my practice is helpful?
 
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:40:48 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>From Mark 6:
>10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any
> place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you
> leave, as a testimony against them."
>
><shake, shake, brush, brush... feet are clean>

When my kids were young, I used to quote this anytime we ate at a
crappy restaurant. Did the shake, shake, brush, brush thing on exit
and everyone would laugh.....and know we were never coming back.

>My participation in these discussions with Mr. Schwartz is over.

It was over when it started.
 
Mozz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >> I was born in London, England.
> >> My predominant 'religion' was Christianity.
> >
> >Were you Christian?
>
> Yes I was.

Why did you change?

Mel, just wondering...
>
> >
> >> I have been a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism for a number of years.
> >> As far as I am concerned, if anyone finds peace or a sense of well
> >> being in their chosen religion (regardless of cultural bias) then that
> >> is wonderful and for that person, clearly it is 'right'.
> >
> >So you have no spiritual motivation to try to convince someone to
> >become a Tibetan Buddhist. Is that correct?
>
> That is correct. If someone wished to learn more about buddhism I
> would of course be very happy to help them in their endeavour.
> My 'spiritual motivation' is to help all sentient beings reach
> liberation from suffering.
>
> >
> >> His Holiness the Dalai Lama has often pointed out that people should
> >> look to their own cultural expressions of faith as thoroughly as
> >> possible before deciding to practice Buddhism.
> >> Right and Wrong are too simplistic and blunt an approach to these
> >> subjects.
> >
> >Truth is often simple.
>
> Subjective or Objective Truth?
> >
> >> Incidentally, my blood pressure (which was high a few years ago) has
> >> been lowered to a healthy level without any drugs, but thanks to my
> >> daily meditation linked to my buddhist practice.
> >>
> >> Good luck everyone!
>
> All things are products of causes and conditions - some more
> favourable than others!
> >
> >Don't believe in luck. However, your wishing others well is
> >appreciated.
>
> Thank you - I wish you well also.
 

>Why did you change?
>
>Mel, just wondering...
>>

I found the teachings and practice of buddhism still maintained the
morality, ethics, compassion and heart of Jesus's teachings, without
the 'literalist / fundamentalist' opinions that still puts many
intelligent people off of taking Christian practice seriously.

Also I feel my 'opinion' of what is meant by God, soul, eternal life,
sin, the history of the compilation of the gospels etc might differ
from yours having read some of your other posts.

Having said that, within many of the monastic contemplative
communities of Christian practice, there is much to be admired.
 
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:16:06 +0100, Mozz <[email protected]> wrote:

>>It may feel right but will it deliver the rewards of eternal life?
>
>I do not seek 'eternal life'.

Then you will not obtain it.

>>Truth is simple. Words complicate its simplicity.

>If you look to the history of Christian Thought you will find many
>many diverse opinions on what is and what is not Truth.
>Are you suggesting these complex debates which forged new
>understandings to take the faith forward throughout history were the
>work of Satan? Perhaps you are.

I am sure, since this is Satan's domain, he has his hands in all kinds
of deceit.

>>>Incidentally, my blood pressure (which was high a few years ago) has
>>>been lowered to a healthy level without any drugs, but thanks to my
>>>daily meditation linked to my buddhist practice.
>>
>>Possible.
>>
>>How can you be sure?
>
>I experiment. I have high blood pressure and a restless mind. Then I
>meditate regularly everyday and continue to monitor the results.
>The results strongly suggest my blood pressure has lowered due to my
>practice.
>Do you dispute that my practice is helpful?

I have only your word that it is.
 

>>
>>I do not seek 'eternal life'.
>
>Then you will not obtain it.

I agree.

>
>>>Truth is simple. Words complicate its simplicity.
>
>>If you look to the history of Christian Thought you will find many
>>many diverse opinions on what is and what is not Truth.
>>Are you suggesting these complex debates which forged new
>>understandings to take the faith forward throughout history were the
>>work of Satan? Perhaps you are.
>
>I am sure, since this is Satan's domain, he has his hands in all kinds
>of deceit.

I see. However, as you no doubt realize by now, I do not believe in
Satan.

>
>>>>Incidentally, my blood pressure (which was high a few years ago) has
>>>>been lowered to a healthy level without any drugs, but thanks to my
>>>>daily meditation linked to my buddhist practice.
>>>
>>>Possible.
>>>
>>>How can you be sure?
>>
>>I experiment. I have high blood pressure and a restless mind. Then I
>>meditate regularly everyday and continue to monitor the results.
>>The results strongly suggest my blood pressure has lowered due to my
>>practice.
>>Do you dispute that my practice is helpful?
>
>I have only your word that it is.

Then as that is all I can give, please accept it in the spirit with
which it was intended.

There is much literature on the Net illustrating well researched
studies proving the benefits to both physical and psychological well
being through utilising a regular meditation practice.
Whether that meditation be buddhist, hindu, gnostic Christian, Sufi or
of no spiritual denomination whatsoever.

May you find the happiness you seek.
 
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

> Steve wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:22:21 -0400, Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote
>>(in message <[email protected]>):
>>
>>
>>>Andrew, still answering as God's humble servant...
>>
>>The irony is thick enough to cut with a knife :)
>>
>>Steve
>
> As if truth could be ironic.

Webster's Unabridged: Irony, n. From Greek, "eironea" dissimulation,
irony, from "eiron" a dissembler in speech.
1. a method of humorous or sarcastic expression in which the intended
meaning of the words used is the direct opposite of their usual sense:
as the speaker was using irony when he said that the stupid plan was
"very clever."

Truth and falsity have no bearing on irony. Your feckless persistence
makes virtually everything you post ironic. Only yours is
unintentional. Of course, some isn't ironic. It's merely lying.

Pastorio
 
Mozz wrote:

> >> >Were you Christian?
> >>
> >> Yes I was.
> >>
> >
> >Are you saying that in the past, you believed Jesus Christ to be your Lord
> >and Savior?
> >
> >If so, what changed your heart?
>
> I found the teachings and practice of buddhism still maintained the
> morality, ethics, compassion and heart of Jesus's teachings, without
> the 'literalist / fundamentalist' opinions that still puts many
> intelligent people off of taking Christian practice seriously.
>
> Also I feel my 'opinion' of what is meant by God, soul, eternal life,
> sin, the history of the compilation of the gospels etc might differ
> from yours having read some of your other posts.
>
> Having said that, within many of the monastic contemplative
> communities of Christian practice, there is much to be admired.
>

Your answer to my question is "no" then.

>
> >
> >What do you perceive is the source of this suffering?
>
> A mistaken view of reality.

Your perceptions are a mistake?

> Afflictive mind-states brought on by
> Attachment, Aversion, Envy and such-like. And a false notion about
> self-hood. Buddhism teaches that all things come into being through
> previous causes and conditions, and nothing is truly seperate and
> intrinsically real in and of itself - everything is empty of intrinsic
> existence. Even Quantum Physicists are coming to this same
> realization.
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> His Holiness the Dalai Lama has often pointed out that people should
> >> >> look to their own cultural expressions of faith as thoroughly as
> >> >> possible before deciding to practice Buddhism.
> >> >> Right and Wrong are too simplistic and blunt an approach to these
> >> >> subjects.
> >> >
> >> >Truth is often simple.
> >>
> >> Subjective or Objective Truth?
> >>
> >
> >There is only one truth.
>
> Within buddhist thought there are Two Truths.
> The Relative or pedagogical truth is the way phenomena manifest and
> the interdependency of their evolution.
> The Absolute or certain truth refers to the empty nature of this
> manifestation. The two truths do not contradict each other; they are
> simultaneous.
>
> Take Care.

Please, you do the same.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:11:15 -0400, Bob Pastorio <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Webster's Unabridged: Irony, n. From Greek, "eironea" dissimulation,
>irony, from "eiron" a dissembler in speech.

Let's get back OT for SMC.

>I'm a heart patient as well.

Tell us more about that. What part of your diet, as a chef you would
know, what parts of your diet did you in?

Why didn't you exercise since you claim to have known better?

Why did you nearly kill yourself at your own hands?
 

>>>I experiment. I have high blood pressure and a restless mind. Then I
>>>meditate regularly everyday and continue to monitor the results.
>>>The results strongly suggest my blood pressure has lowered due to my
>>>practice.
>>>Do you dispute that my practice is helpful?

>>I have only your word that it is.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:25:12 +0100, Mozz <[email protected]> wrote:

>Then as that is all I can give, please accept it in the spirit with
>which it was intended.

It is so accepted.

>There is much literature on the Net illustrating well researched
>studies proving the benefits to both physical and psychological well
>being through utilising a regular meditation practice.

Yes there is.

>Whether that meditation be buddhist, hindu, gnostic Christian, Sufi or
>of no spiritual denomination whatsoever.
>
>May you find the happiness you seek.

I'm awfully close. Death walks with me everyday.
 
Bob Pastorio wrote:

> Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>
> > Steve wrote:
> >
> >>On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:22:21 -0400, Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote
> >>(in message <[email protected]>):
> >>
> >>
> >>>Andrew, still answering as God's humble servant...
> >>
> >>The irony is thick enough to cut with a knife :)
> >>
> >>Steve
> >
> > As if truth could be ironic.
>
> Webster's Unabridged: Irony, n. From Greek, "eironea" dissimulation,
> irony, from "eiron" a dissembler in speech.
> 1. a method of humorous or sarcastic expression in which the intended
> meaning of the words used is the direct opposite of their usual sense:
> as the speaker was using irony when he said that the stupid plan was
> "very clever."
>
> Truth and falsity have no bearing on irony.

Not according to your own cite.

> Your feckless persistence
> makes virtually everything you post ironic. Only yours is
> unintentional. Of course, some isn't ironic. It's merely lying.
>
> Pastorio

I continue to write truthfully as God's humble servant.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
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