A Brilliant Cardiologist Once Wrote......




>> >> >Are you saying that in the past, you believed Jesus Christ to be your Lord
>> >> >and Savior?
>> >> >
>> >> >If so, what changed your heart?
>> >>
>> >> I found the teachings and practice of buddhism still maintained the
>> >> morality, ethics, compassion and heart of Jesus's teachings, without
>> >> the 'literalist / fundamentalist' opinions that still puts many
>> >> intelligent people off of taking Christian practice seriously.
>> >>
>> >> Also I feel my 'opinion' of what is meant by God, soul, eternal life,
>> >> sin, the history of the compilation of the gospels etc might differ
>> >> from yours having read some of your other posts.
>> >>
>> >> Having said that, within many of the monastic contemplative
>> >> communities of Christian practice, there is much to be admired.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Your answer to my question is "no" then.
>>
>> Your interpretation of my answer to your question is "no".
>>
>
>Would logically follow from not answering the question.
>
>Ok, please don't keep everyone in suspense, is your answer "yes" or is it "no."

I'm sorry if I have unwittingly caused any offence to you Dr Chung..
My aim when I started this thread was merely to offer to those who
suffer from hypertension and anxiety another possibility through
meditative practice.

If you read my answer to your 'questions' above, I think my points are
quite clear.

Yes, in the past I believed Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Saviour.
No, I do not believe that any longer.

>> >
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >What do you perceive is the source of this suffering?
>> >>
>> >> A mistaken view of reality.
>> >
>> >Your perceptions are a mistake?
>>
>> Generally speaking, yes. This is true for 'all' unenlightened beings.
>
>> We aim to become enlightened through practice.
>> I understand that you would certainly disagree with this point being a
>> practising Christian, and from your faith's stand point I can quite
>> undertand why this is so.
>>
>
>Ok, what is your "mistaken" perception of the source of human suffering?

If you are genuinely interested in buddhist thought I can give you
some good web-site addresses that go into some detail. I am not
certain though if you really are interested. Are you?

I know that your christian beliefs are different to my buddhist ones.
I respect that.

But seeing as you asked, from the buddhist perspective 'mistaken
perception' causing suffering is due to ignorance of the four noble
truths and the two truths which cause beings to remain trapped within
this 'world' of samsara (delusion). The four noble truths are 1 - Know
that life is suffering.(we all are born, get sick, age and die) 2 -
understand the causes of suffering 3 - know that cessation of
suffering is possible and 4 - apply the Path that leads to Cessation.
The Path consists of two balances - Compassion and Wisdom. Compassion
includes ethical behaviour towards yourself as well as others and
Wisdom means to understand the Two Truths, Ultimate Truth and Relative
Truth. All form is emptiness, all emptiness is form. (Emptiness does
not mean 'voidness of nothingness' - it means nothing exists in
isolation without reference to something else).


>>
>> Thank you.
>> Peace be with you.
>
>And with you.

keep up the good work!
 
Mozz wrote:

> >> >> >Are you saying that in the past, you believed Jesus Christ to be your Lord
> >> >> >and Savior?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >If so, what changed your heart?
> >> >>
> >> >> I found the teachings and practice of buddhism still maintained the
> >> >> morality, ethics, compassion and heart of Jesus's teachings, without
> >> >> the 'literalist / fundamentalist' opinions that still puts many
> >> >> intelligent people off of taking Christian practice seriously.
> >> >>
> >> >> Also I feel my 'opinion' of what is meant by God, soul, eternal life,
> >> >> sin, the history of the compilation of the gospels etc might differ
> >> >> from yours having read some of your other posts.
> >> >>
> >> >> Having said that, within many of the monastic contemplative
> >> >> communities of Christian practice, there is much to be admired.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Your answer to my question is "no" then.
> >>
> >> Your interpretation of my answer to your question is "no".
> >>
> >
> >Would logically follow from not answering the question.
> >
> >Ok, please don't keep everyone in suspense, is your answer "yes" or is it "no."
>
> I'm sorry if I have unwittingly caused any offence to you Dr Chung..
>

No offense taken.

> My aim when I started this thread was merely to offer to those who
> suffer from hypertension and anxiety another possibility through
> meditative practice.
>
> If you read my answer to your 'questions' above, I think my points are
> quite clear.
>
> Yes, in the past I believed Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Saviour.
> No, I do not believe that any longer.
>

Why the change of heart?

>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >What do you perceive is the source of this suffering?
> >> >>
> >> >> A mistaken view of reality.
> >> >
> >> >Your perceptions are a mistake?
> >>
> >> Generally speaking, yes. This is true for 'all' unenlightened beings.
> >
> >> We aim to become enlightened through practice.
> >> I understand that you would certainly disagree with this point being a
> >> practising Christian, and from your faith's stand point I can quite
> >> undertand why this is so.
> >>
> >
> >Ok, what is your "mistaken" perception of the source of human suffering?
>
> If you are genuinely interested in buddhist thought I can give you
> some good web-site addresses that go into some detail. I am not
> certain though if you really are interested. Are you?
>

I am more interested in your thoughts concerning what you perceive to be the
source(s) of human suffering.

>
> I know that your christian beliefs are different to my buddhist ones.
> I respect that.
>

Ok.

>
> But seeing as you asked, from the buddhist perspective 'mistaken
> perception' causing suffering is due to ignorance of the four noble
> truths and the two truths which cause beings to remain trapped within
> this 'world' of samsara (delusion).

How would you explain less suffering in folks with clinically evident delusions?

> The four noble truths are 1 - Know
> that life is suffering.(we all are born, get sick, age and die) 2 -
> understand the causes of suffering

And the causes are from delusions?

> 3 - know that cessation of
> suffering is possible and 4 - apply the Path that leads to Cessation.
> The Path consists of two balances - Compassion and Wisdom. Compassion
> includes ethical behaviour towards yourself as well as others and
> Wisdom means to understand the Two Truths, Ultimate Truth and Relative
> Truth. All form is emptiness, all emptiness is form. (Emptiness does
> not mean 'voidness of nothingness' - it means nothing exists in
> isolation without reference to something else).
>

Are you suffering less since adopting Buddhist beliefs?

>
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >> Peace be with you.
> >
> >And with you.
>
> keep up the good work!

It isn't work.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
King Ahaz wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:25:40 -0400, Bob Pastorio wrote
> (in message <[email protected]>):
>
>
>>King Ahaz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 9:35:46 -0400, M. Schwartz wrote
>>>(in message <[email protected]>):
>>>
>>>
>>>>It is obvious to me you cannot discuss Isaiah 7:10 through 7:14. Any
>>>>intelligent person can plainly see the prophecy was meant for king
>>>>Ahaz. It is clear that God was talking to king Ahaz and Ahaz declined
>>>>to try the Lord and so God gave him a sign anyway. Very simple.
>>>
>>>That was the way I took it at the time... but we up here often find Chung
>>>obtuse.
>>>
>>>HTH
>>
>>Oh, it does help, your majesty. But I'm sure that Chung would prefer
>>to be called a "right" angle.
>>
> Yes, well we understand he does _always_ have an angle.

Well, yes. That's axiomatic. All part of his line.

Pastorio
 
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>
>>Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>>
>><Discussion about Christ snipped>
>>
>>Only 727 lines, this post. Much too, um, precious to snip.
>>
>>And Chung is not at all compulsive. Or obsessed. Those were ironic
>>statements.
>>
>
>
> Those were untruths.
>
>
>>Pastorio
>
>
> Outline of a growing obsession:

Oh, let me show how lame you are once again. I can't imagine why you
don't find being shown to be a charlatan distressing. I guess after it
happens so often, you grow numb.

Let's start with the word "obsession." It's a technical term in
psychiatric medicine. You clearly don't understand what it means and
what it implies. This is your cue to run off to a dictionary and post
the definition and say you knew it all along. Don't forget to also
post it under M_uckraker's name, too. Doubly reinforce your brilliance.

> Pastorio hates the 2PD, and this hatred grows.

Pastorio *scorns* the 2PoundUnintelligentDiet. The scorn has reached
its limit and accomplished its task because no one is even talking
about it any more. It's as dead an issue as Chung's honesty. If it had
included something more than merely weigh the food and let the
nutrients fall where they may, I might have supported or even
encouraged it. But it's just as superficial as most of Chung's answers
and all of M_ung's. It denies science. It denies reason. It denies
that not one size can fit all. And then they both lie about it. Never
failed. 100% success. Lots of people doing it. Not a shred of support.
Pastorio scorns weak ideas and the proponents of them.

> Pastorio hates Dr. Chung, the author of the 2PD, and this hatred grows.

Pastorio is puzzled by Chung who seems to be a very disturbed person.
A person competent enough to get a Ph.D. and an M.D. yet who comports
himself like a lackwitted schoolyard idiot, desperately intent on
"winning" his initiated combats. A man who supports the deliberate
disturbances created by his sock puppet Mu whose intent is to cause
pain and dissension. Chung lies and dissembles, distorts and offers
deliberately obtuse statements to "win" his points. All for naught
because the cumulative effect of his posts is to show him to be a
shabby sort who is wasting the education and opportunity granted him.

Pastorio *scorns* Chung for his demonstrated lack of integrity.

> Pastorio hates God, the creator of the author of the 2PD, and this hatred consumes him.

Pastorio has a relationship with God that you couldn't begin to
understand. Began religious and spiritual education and questing 57
years ago. Still at it.

> You continue to have my pity *and* love.

You continue to be the manipulative fraud you always are. A smarmy and
sanctimonious fake using your trivial religious posturing as a weapon.

Your phony "diagnoses" of my situation are patent, self-serving,
denigratory charlatanry. You are a dissembling liar of lamentably
little perceptivity. It looks like you used up all your intelligence
getting the degrees and had none left over for daily life. You are a
man of scant integrity. It's a true pity. I simply don't believe you
love anything. You have no capacity to express it. You fear God and
you don't understand that God is everywhere, in everyone and in every
action. You think you have a done deal. I hope you're right, but I
don't believe you do, based on years of reading and study with people
wiser than both of us.

Pastorio hates nothing. Pastorio genuinely wishes you had better
mental health. And Mu, too.

Now can we stop talking in the third person? Oh, wait. It's that way
in your macro so you can't.

Pastorio
 
Reach for the Mu_n wrote:

> I'll answer these questions for you and no more until you answer
> questions about your nearly killing yourself with excessive alcohol
> intake, smoking and lack of exercise and highly improper diet that
> lead to your obesity and ultimately to your quad bypass.
>
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:41:09 -0400, Bob Pastorio <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Perhaps you'd like to say why Chung, the cardiologist, is your doctor.
>
> I have had several cardiologists and by far Chung is the brightest,
> most personable, most informative and accessible physician I have had.

I don't know anyone else not in desperate condition who has had to
deal with *several* cardiologists. Must be a constantly
life-threateningly serious situation. Do you have a pacemaker or other
stimulative implant? I hear they can help some people with conditions
as serious as yours.

"Ever had?" That accessible thing. Is that what you meant when you
said that Chung was more than a friend? I have no issue with how you
want to live your life, and I don't really want to know a lot of
sordid details, I'm just curious what it could mean. I'm sure others
have wondered, too.

> Ever.
>
> Being a devout Christian is a plus as well.

A lot like you, then? There's another bit of irony. Just everywhere,
have you noticed?

> He is my family's cardiologist not just mine.

So the whole family has serious problems? I'm sorry. I've heard about
that sort of situation. The whole family hanging on by a thread. Must
be very stressful. No wonder you do these erratic and mentally bizarre
posts. It's all that stress about the whole family and their terminal
heart conditions. I'd probably have erectile dysfunction and drug and
alcohol problems like you if I were in that kind of shape.

Well, I know I can speak for everyone here when I say I hope your
family gets their transplants soon. And you keep Chung as your
cardiatrician. He's accessible, you say.

Pastorio
 
Reach for the Mu_n wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:38:57 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Outline of a growing obsession:
>>Pastorio hates the 2PD, and this hatred grows.
>>Pastorio hates Dr. Chung, the author of the 2PD, and this hatred grows.
>>Pastorio hates God, the creator of the author of the 2PD, and this hatred consumes him.
>
> All confirmed by his constant TROLLING of SMC of you and me with no
> intention of adding to the quality of discussion OR to talk about his
> nearly killing himself with his love for food and excessive addictions
> to alcohol and tobacco.

Bwahahahahaha

How can you do that with just one hand? I'd think you'd need both
hands to type. Here. Take this hankie. Just drop it in the trash when
you're done.

LOL

Pastorio
 
Reach for the Mu_n wrote:

>
>>>>If you look to the history of Christian Thought you will find many
>>>>many diverse opinions on what is and what is not Truth.
>>>>Are you suggesting these complex debates which forged new
>>>>understandings to take the faith forward throughout history were the
>>>>work of Satan? Perhaps you are.
>>>
>>>I am sure, since this is Satan's domain, he has his hands in all kinds
>>>of deceit.
>
>
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:35:28 -0400, Bob Pastorio <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>So this is an answer you'll stand by?
>
> Did I type it?

And how is anyone supposed to know that? So questions with no answers
are the "answers" you'll stand by?

>>So, let's see, M_ucus. We have only your word about everything you've
>>posted. All those answers you said you'd stand by.

So there's no reason to accept them, right? I mean you've asked other
people to prove their assertions. But, for some reason, you don't have to?

> Correct.

Gotcha. So. No more reason than ever to believe a word you say.
>
>>Do you dispute that your word is nothing without some sort of proof
>>like you imply should be forthcoming from Mozz about his experience?
>
> My proof is in Google.

So, once again, it's "I can't win this argument, so I'll act like I
did." I dunno, I'd guess it would get old to look so stupid so often
with so many weak and pointless answers to questions. Must be the
steroids affecting your mind.

Pastorio
 
Bob Pastorio wrote:

> Reach for the Mu_n wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:38:57 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Outline of a growing obsession:
> >>Pastorio hates the 2PD, and this hatred grows.
> >>Pastorio hates Dr. Chung, the author of the 2PD, and this hatred grows.
> >>Pastorio hates God, the creator of the author of the 2PD, and this hatred consumes him.
> >
> > All confirmed by his constant TROLLING of SMC of you and me with no
> > intention of adding to the quality of discussion OR to talk about his
> > nearly killing himself with his love for food and excessive addictions
> > to alcohol and tobacco.
>
> Bwahahahahaha
>

Looks like he's gone off the deep end.

He has my pity.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>><obsessive rantings snipped>
>
> I pity you.

Remember Pavlov?

Here's another post.

Ready...
Set...
Drool.

Pastorio
 
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:38:57 -0400, Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):

Chung! Stop! Go to bed! (Say a prayer for Pastorio first, however). You are
becomming unstrung. I am worried about you. If you self destruct, there will
be no one left but Mu to play with... and he isn't much fun.

There will be plenty of posts to reply to tomorrow... Mu will take care of
that for you.

Look what you are saying:

> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>> Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>>
>> <Discussion about Christ snipped>
>>
>> Only 727 lines, this post. Much too, um, precious to snip.
>>
>> And Chung is not at all compulsive. Or obsessed. Those were ironic
>> statements.
>>
>
> Those were untruths.

Let see:

Chung is not at all compulsive is untrue
Therefore Chung is compulsive,

Chung is not obsessed is untrue
Therefore Chung is obsessed.

This is what we on Planet Earth call "logic".

>
> Outline of a growing obsession:
>
> Pastorio hates the 2PD, and this hatred grows.
>
> Pastorio hates Dr. Chung, the author of the 2PD, and this hatred grows.
>
> Pastorio hates God, the creator of the author of the 2PD, and this hatred
> consumes him.

*God* is now the creator and author of the 2PD? Hmm, I think I better take
another look at it. I must admit I thought it was ********, but this throws a
whole new light on it. Could you point me to God's web site? Does he sue for
libel?

Or perhaps you are now starting to identify yourself as God?

Go to bed Chung. Seriously. You are becomming fatigued.

Steve
 

>> >> >>

>Why the change of heart?

I guess in your terms of understanding I lost faith.
I also found the 'religion' set up around most of Christianity (ie:
the established churches) very hypocritical and I could no longer
maintain a blind head in the sand "Everything is God's will" approach
to the many inconsistencies within the written Word.

Also as I matured and studied theology and psychology I gained new
insights as to how our minds relate to religious/mythic material. I
still feel the beauty and relevance of the gospels but interpreted in
the same way any archetypal literature would move me.

As you appear to be quite a fundamentalist christian from your
postings so far, I accept that this approach will probably be anathema
to you.
I can see why that would be so, and I accept that happily.

I am not trying to change you in your views, and you certainly are
unlikely to change me. So let's leave it at that in the spirit of love
and non-judgement both our traditions hold dear.




>
>I am more interested in your thoughts concerning what you perceive to be the
>source(s) of human suffering.

As I have written - my thoughts are detailed below.

>> But seeing as you asked, from the buddhist perspective 'mistaken
>> perception' causing suffering is due to ignorance of the four noble
>> truths and the two truths which cause beings to remain trapped within
>> this 'world' of samsara (delusion).
>
>How would you explain less suffering in folks with clinically evident delusions?

These folks do not suffer less. The suffering buddha speaks of is
existential. By the very act of being born into this Desire Realm, we
are thrown into a world full of a need for attachment to things,
aversion to other things and ignorance of how to avoid this suffering.
Even animals are part of this cycle of suffering. They too are born,
get sick, age and die. Animals are less fortunate than us (as are
perhaps people with severe mental disorders) as they are even less
able to meet the dharma (teachings) and release themselves in this
lifetime.

>
>> The four noble truths are 1 - Know
>> that life is suffering.(we all are born, get sick, age and die) 2 -
>> understand the causes of suffering
>
>And the causes are from delusions?

No, the delusions are ignorance of the causes. The causes are
Attachment, Aversion, Anger, Envy, Jealousy....and so forth.
Afflictive emotional states. Some are very deeply rooted and require
much practice to overcome.

>
>> 3 - know that cessation of
>> suffering is possible and 4 - apply the Path that leads to Cessation.
>> The Path consists of two balances - Compassion and Wisdom. Compassion
>> includes ethical behaviour towards yourself as well as others and
>> Wisdom means to understand the Two Truths, Ultimate Truth and Relative
>> Truth. All form is emptiness, all emptiness is form. (Emptiness does
>> not mean 'voidness of nothingness' - it means nothing exists in
>> isolation without reference to something else).
>>
>
>Are you suffering less since adopting Buddhist beliefs?

Yes I am. But I still have a long way to go to reach full
enlightenment. It is a lifetimes task.


>>
>> keep up the good work!
>
>It isn't work.

Peace be with you.
 
Steve wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:38:57 -0400, Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote
> (in message <[email protected]>):
>
> Chung! Stop! Go to bed! (Say a prayer for Pastorio first, however). You are
> becomming unstrung. I am worried about you. If you self destruct, there will
> be no one left but Mu to play with... and he isn't much fun.
>
> There will be plenty of posts to reply to tomorrow... Mu will take care of
> that for you.
>
> Look what you are saying:
>
> > Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >
> >> Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> >>
> >> <Discussion about Christ snipped>
> >>
> >> Only 727 lines, this post. Much too, um, precious to snip.
> >>
> >> And Chung is not at all compulsive. Or obsessed. Those were ironic
> >> statements.
> >>
> >
> > Those were untruths.
>
> Let see:
>
> Chung is not at all compulsive is untrue
> Therefore Chung is compulsive,
>

About my God, yes. As His humble servant, yes.

>
> Chung is not obsessed is untrue
> Therefore Chung is obsessed.
>

About my God, yes. As His humble servant, yes.

>
> This is what we on Planet Earth call "logic".
>

Yep.

>
> >
> > Outline of a growing obsession:
> >
> > Pastorio hates the 2PD, and this hatred grows.
> >
> > Pastorio hates Dr. Chung, the author of the 2PD, and this hatred grows.
> >
> > Pastorio hates God, the creator of the author of the 2PD, and this hatred
> > consumes him.
>
> *God* is now the creator and author of the 2PD?

Go ahead, read it again. You must be a little bleary-eyed w/o sleep.

> Hmm, I think I better take
> another look at it.

Please do.

> I must admit I thought it was ********, but this throws a
> whole new light on it. Could you point me to God's web site?

He doesn't need one.

> Does he sue for
> libel?
>

He's the judge.

http://www.heartmdphd.com/christ.asp

>
> Or perhaps you are now starting to identify yourself as God?
>

No.

>
> Go to bed Chung. Seriously. You are becomming fatigued.
>
> Steve

If I were, I would have trouble spelling.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
Mozz wrote:

> >> >> >>
>
> >Why the change of heart?
>
> I guess in your terms of understanding I lost faith.

My understanding of you will come from what you write.

Are you asserting that when Jesus said:

From John 14:

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through me..."

that He was lying?

>
> I also found the 'religion' set up around most of Christianity (ie:
> the established churches) very hypocritical and I could no longer
> maintain a blind head in the sand "Everything is God's will" approach
> to the many inconsistencies within the written Word.
>

Please do provide examples to support your beliefs.

>
> Also as I matured and studied theology and psychology I gained new
> insights as to how our minds relate to religious/mythic material. I
> still feel the beauty and relevance of the gospels but interpreted in
> the same way any archetypal literature would move me.
>
> As you appear to be quite a fundamentalist christian from your
> postings so far, I accept that this approach will probably be anathema
> to you.

Not really.

>
> I can see why that would be so, and I accept that happily.
>
> I am not trying to change you in your views, and you certainly are
> unlikely to change me. So let's leave it at that in the spirit of love
> and non-judgement both our traditions hold dear.
>

Would still like to understand your beliefs.

>
> >
> >I am more interested in your thoughts concerning what you perceive to be the
> >source(s) of human suffering.
>
> As I have written - my thoughts are detailed below.
>
> >> But seeing as you asked, from the buddhist perspective 'mistaken
> >> perception' causing suffering is due to ignorance of the four noble
> >> truths and the two truths which cause beings to remain trapped within
> >> this 'world' of samsara (delusion).
> >
> >How would you explain less suffering in folks with clinically evident delusions?
>
> These folks do not suffer less.

They seem to. Folks who are around them certainly seem to suffer more.

> The suffering buddha speaks of is
> existential.

How do you know that?

> By the very act of being born into this Desire Realm, we
> are thrown into a world full of a need for attachment to things,
> aversion to other things and ignorance of how to avoid this suffering.
> Even animals are part of this cycle of suffering. They too are born,
> get sick, age and die. Animals are less fortunate than us (as are
> perhaps people with severe mental disorders) as they are even less
> able to meet the dharma (teachings) and release themselves in this
> lifetime.
>
> >
> >> The four noble truths are 1 - Know
> >> that life is suffering.(we all are born, get sick, age and die) 2 -
> >> understand the causes of suffering
> >
> >And the causes are from delusions?
>
> No, the delusions are ignorance of the causes. The causes are
> Attachment, Aversion, Anger, Envy, Jealousy....

Aren't those sins?

> and so forth.
> Afflictive emotional states. Some are very deeply rooted and require
> much practice to overcome.
>
> >
> >> 3 - know that cessation of
> >> suffering is possible and 4 - apply the Path that leads to Cessation.
> >> The Path consists of two balances - Compassion and Wisdom. Compassion
> >> includes ethical behaviour towards yourself as well as others and
> >> Wisdom means to understand the Two Truths, Ultimate Truth and Relative
> >> Truth. All form is emptiness, all emptiness is form. (Emptiness does
> >> not mean 'voidness of nothingness' - it means nothing exists in
> >> isolation without reference to something else).
> >>
> >
> >Are you suffering less since adopting Buddhist beliefs?
>
> Yes I am. But I still have a long way to go to reach full
> enlightenment. It is a lifetimes task.
>

Did Buddha suffer when he died?

>
> >>
> >> keep up the good work!
> >
> >It isn't work.
>
> Peace be with you.

And with you.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 

>Are you asserting that when Jesus said:
>
>From John 14:
>
>6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father
>except through me..."
>
>that He was lying?

No. I certainly don't believe Jesus was a liar.
If Jesus said these actual words in exactly the context presented, and
not all biblical scholars accept these words as consistent with Jesus'
other more inclusive sayings (and the synoptic gospels are not
infalible in this way - there are many inconsistencies over the four
chosen canon) - then I simply and respectfully disagree with him.


>
>>
>> I also found the 'religion' set up around most of Christianity (ie:
>> the established churches) very hypocritical and I could no longer
>> maintain a blind head in the sand "Everything is God's will" approach
>> to the many inconsistencies within the written Word.
>>
>
>Please do provide examples to support your beliefs.

Simply look to the recent scandals within the Roman Catholic Church,
priests found guilty of sexual misconduct, child abuse, the bitter
enmity between factions over points of theological contention - the
protestant situation regarding homosexual ministers, women ministers
etc....the declaration that war is 'righteous in the eyes of God' by
certain church leaders....do you think Jesus would recognise these as
his followers simply because they 'believed he was Lord' regardless of
their behaviour?

>
>Would still like to understand your beliefs.

Ok

>> >How would you explain less suffering in folks with clinically evident delusions?
>>
>> These folks do not suffer less.
>
>They seem to. Folks who are around them certainly seem to suffer more.

All beings within Samsara (the desire realm) are born into suffering.
That suffering may be subtler in some, and appear more overt in
others.

>> No, the delusions are ignorance of the causes. The causes are
>> Attachment, Aversion, Anger, Envy, Jealousy....
>
>Aren't those sins?

Perhaps you could call them sins. I see no reason not to, if sin means
'seperation from God - God being a perfect state to reach union with'
in Christian understanding then it would make sense.

>Did Buddha suffer when he died?

As far as I understand, the buddha was highly realized by the time of
his death, and although his physical death was as painful as anyone
elses might be, his state of mind was very calm - he saw all
manifestation for what it was - dream-like, the nature of clouds,
insubstantial - and he passed beyond into nirvana.

>>
>> Peace be with you.
>
>And with you.
 

>
>I hope you won't mind my asking this, what convinced you Jesus was not God?
>
>Mel

I don't mind you asking at all Mel.

I guess it was a series of things coming together.
I was studying theology and psycholgy, and I became aware of the many
contradictions inherent within the synoptic gospels. I also read other
traditions claims to God-hood (the Koran, Hinduism, Sufism,
Zoroasterinism etc) and I realized these traditions also had equally
valid claims. It always boils down to a choice, usually based on
cultural circumstance.
I realized I simply couldn't honestly say I had faith in accepting
Jesus' claims as absolute.

I started to practice buddhist dharma and meditation, met His Holiness
the Dalai Lama and was suitably impressed by his compassionate nature
and wisdom - and found my life changing for the better.

Peace be with you Mel.
 

>> I have had several cardiologists and by far Chung is the brightest,
>> most personable, most informative and accessible physician I have had.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:19:43 -0400, Bob Pastorio <[email protected]>
wrote:


>I don't know anyone else not in desperate condition who has had to
>deal with *several* cardiologists.

Of course you don't.

>Must be a constantly
>life-threateningly serious situation.

Nope.

> Do you have a pacemaker or other
>stimulative implant?

Nope.

> I hear they can help some people with conditions
>as serious as yours.

>> Being a devout Christian is a plus as well.
>
>A lot like you, then? There's another bit of irony. Just everywhere,
>have you noticed?

Nope.

>> He is my family's cardiologist not just mine.
>
>So the whole family has serious problems?

Nope.

> I'm sorry.

No need. You were wrong.....again.

Here's the deal, Cheffie.

I'll respond to any non redundant questions you have about my health,
exercise regimen, training expertise.

Soon, if you don't start talking about your quad bypass, you will be
left to play all by yourself.
 
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 5:40:28 -0400, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:

>Chung! Stop! Go to bed! (Say a prayer for Pastorio first, however). You are
>becomming unstrung. I am worried about you. If you self destruct, there will
>be no one left but Mu to play with... and he isn't much fun.

Mu won't be playing any longer. You're a worthless TROLL on SMC and
have little of value to say anywhere on Usenet.
 
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