A Brilliant Cardiologist Once Wrote......



On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:42:53 -0400, Crescent Mu_n wrote:

> Mu won't be playing any longer. You're a worthless TROLL on SMC and
> have little of value to say anywhere on Usenet.


Sort of like you that way.
 
Mozz wrote:

> >Are you asserting that when Jesus said:
> >
> >From John 14:
> >
> >6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father
> >except through me..."
> >
> >that He was lying?

>
> No. I certainly don't believe Jesus was a liar.


Aren't you conflicted here?

>
> If Jesus said these actual words in exactly the context presented, and
> not all biblical scholars accept these words as consistent with Jesus'
> other more inclusive sayings (and the synoptic gospels are not
> infalible in this way - there are many inconsistencies over the four
> chosen canon) - then I simply and respectfully disagree with him.
>


If I simply and respectfully disagreed with your statement that you are a follower of
Buddha, would you be surprised at folks interpreting that to mean that I believe you are
lying?

>
> >
> >>
> >> I also found the 'religion' set up around most of Christianity (ie:
> >> the established churches) very hypocritical and I could no longer
> >> maintain a blind head in the sand "Everything is God's will" approach
> >> to the many inconsistencies within the written Word.
> >>

> >
> >Please do provide examples to support your beliefs.

>
> Simply look to the recent scandals within the Roman Catholic Church,
> priests found guilty of sexual misconduct, child abuse, the bitter
> enmity between factions over points of theological contention - the
> protestant situation regarding homosexual ministers, women ministers
> etc....the declaration that war is 'righteous in the eyes of God' by
> certain church leaders....


Are any of these showing inconsistencies within God's Word?

> do you think Jesus would recognise these as
> his followers simply because they 'believed he was Lord' regardless of
> their behaviour?
>


Being that Jesus, as God the Son, sees into the hearts of men, He knows who are truly His
followers regardless of their actions.

>
> >
> >Would still like to understand your beliefs.

>
> Ok
>
> >> >How would you explain less suffering in folks with clinically evident delusions?
> >>
> >> These folks do not suffer less.

> >
> >They seem to. Folks who are around them certainly seem to suffer more.

>
> All beings within Samsara (the desire realm) are born into suffering.
> That suffering may be subtler in some, and appear more overt in
> others.
>


Was Buddha born into suffering?

>
> >> No, the delusions are ignorance of the causes. The causes are
> >> Attachment, Aversion, Anger, Envy, Jealousy....

> >
> >Aren't those sins?

>
> Perhaps you could call them sins. I see no reason not to, if sin means
> 'seperation from God - God being a perfect state to reach union with'
> in Christian understanding then it would make sense.
>
> >Did Buddha suffer when he died?

>
> As far as I understand, the buddha was highly realized by the time of
> his death, and although his physical death was as painful as anyone
> elses might be, his state of mind was very calm - he saw all
> manifestation for what it was - dream-like, the nature of clouds,
> insubstantial - and he passed beyond into nirvana.
>


How do you know where Buddha is, did he come back to tell his followers?

>
> >>
> >> Peace be with you.

> >
> >And with you.


Witnessing as God's humble servant,

Andrew


--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:34:17 -0400, Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):

>>> Are you asserting that when Jesus said:
>>>
>>> From John 14:
>>>
>>> 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes
>>> to the Father
>>> except through me..."
>>>
>>> that He was lying?


Chung, I was just wondering why you don't put a space after the verse number
when you quote scripture. I'm not trying to make anything out of it, just
curious. I haven't seen that before and was wondering if there is some reason
for it like the guy who types G-d instead of God. Is it some sort of
sectarian convention?

Steve
 

>>
>> No. I certainly don't believe Jesus was a liar.

>
>Aren't you conflicted here?


No.

>
>>
>> If Jesus said these actual words in exactly the context presented, and
>> not all biblical scholars accept these words as consistent with Jesus'
>> other more inclusive sayings (and the synoptic gospels are not
>> infalible in this way - there are many inconsistencies over the four
>> chosen canon) - then I simply and respectfully disagree with him.
>>

>
>If I simply and respectfully disagreed with your statement that you are a follower of
>Buddha, would you be surprised at folks interpreting that to mean that I believe you are
>lying?


That is not the same thing at all.
If I said - I am buddha, and the only way to paradise was through my
teachings and no other - and you disagreed, that is not the same as
you accusing me of lying is it. I might truly think I am the only way
- yet be mistaken.


>> Simply look to the recent scandals within the Roman Catholic Church,
>> priests found guilty of sexual misconduct, child abuse, the bitter
>> enmity between factions over points of theological contention - the
>> protestant situation regarding homosexual ministers, women ministers
>> etc....the declaration that war is 'righteous in the eyes of God' by
>> certain church leaders....

>
>Are any of these showing inconsistencies within God's Word?


According to those ministers arguing the toss, God's Word is open to
much varied interpretation - and there is the nub of your problem.
>
>> do you think Jesus would recognise these as
>> his followers simply because they 'believed he was Lord' regardless of
>> their behaviour?
>>

>
>Being that Jesus, as God the Son, sees into the hearts of men, He knows who are truly His
>followers regardless of their actions.


Nevertheless, I am sure you would not disagree that a mans actions are
far from irrelevant in the eyes of God.


>How do you know where Buddha is, did he come back to tell his followers?


Nirvana is not a 'place' - it is a state of mind. The mind continues
in a subtle state even after physical death until reincarnation.

In the same way you believe Christ was resurrected and will come
again, buddha has been reborn many times in many circumstances to
continue helping other sentient beings reach enlightenment.
A recent example being the reincarnation of His Holiness the 14th
Dalai Lama.

>
>Witnessing as God's humble servant,


May the precious jewel in the lotus, the supreme bodhicitta, grow
wherever it is needed.

>
>Andrew
 
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:23:54 +0100, Mozz wrote:

> Doctor Chung, may I ask you why you believe in God?
>
> Respectfully.


An equally interesting question is "Chung, were you born and raised a
Christian, or did you convert from another religion?"
 
Mozz wrote:

> Doctor Chung, may I ask you why you believe in God?
>
> Respectfully.


God blessed me with the ability to discern truth.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 

>
>> Doctor Chung, may I ask you why you believe in God?
>>
>> Respectfully.

>
>God blessed me with the ability to discern truth.


How do you know?
 
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:09:03 +0100, Mozz wrote:

>>> Doctor Chung, may I ask you why you believe in God?
>>>
>>> Respectfully.

>>
>>God blessed me with the ability to discern truth.

>
> How do you know?


I reckon the answer will be something along the lines of "When the Spirit
touches you, you will know the Truth" or "When you see the Truth, you will
know the Truth."

Chung doesn't make for intelligent debates. (That's why he's had so few
converts to his two pound a day diet.)
 
Mozz wrote:

> >
> >> Doctor Chung, may I ask you why you believe in God?
> >>
> >> Respectfully.

> >
> >God blessed me with the ability to discern truth.

>
> How do you know?


I also have the gift of vision. I know I have the gift of truth
discernment in the same manner I know I have the gift of vision.

I know through their use.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:16:21 -0400, Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

>> If I believed that hot weather was good,

>
> That would be based on your preferences.
>
>> and someone else said no it's
>> not because the hot weather makes them uncomfortable,

>
> That would be based on his/her preferences.
>
>> then it wouldn't
>> make me a liar because I believed the weather was good and they
>> believed it was bad.
>>

>
> One would expect you two to have different preferences.


Much the same was that Christianity, Judaism and Islam have preferences,
no?

> If, on the other hand, you were to claim the *only* way to become get
> relief from the heat is through you...


Yet you claim only Christianity is the right way. Does this make Jews and
Muslims liars?

>> How can you possibly know God's Word without interpretation?

>
> God's Word is independent of interpretation.


Please elaborate.
 
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:57:00 -0400, Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

> Mozz wrote:
>
>>>God blessed me with the ability to discern truth.

>>
>> How do you know?

>
> I also have the gift of vision. I know I have the gift of truth
> discernment in the same manner I know I have the gift of vision.


So, you are a walking, talking, typing, lie detector. What does your lie
detector tell you about your little buddy mu (a.k.a. roose)?

> I know through their use.


But you can't explain it, right?
 
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:57:00 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Mozz wrote:
>
>> >
>> >> Doctor Chung, may I ask you why you believe in God?
>> >>
>> >> Respectfully.
>> >
>> >God blessed me with the ability to discern truth.

>>
>> How do you know?

>
>I also have the gift of vision. I know I have the gift of truth
>discernment in the same manner I know I have the gift of vision.
>
>I know through their use.


On that note, I feel we must part company in these posts.
I feel they are decending into madness - you seem to offer no logical
or reasonable arguements to support your theories - other than the
circular moribund arguement all zealots peddle that is - "I know!
Because I am special of different in some way!"

People who think they are Napoleon or Joan Of Arc sound very similar
in their convictions.

It is the attitudes of people like you that made the rational approach
of Buddhism so attractive.

I hope you find peace someday.
 
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:02:30 +0100, Mozz wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:57:00 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I also have the gift of vision. I know I have the gift of truth
>>discernment in the same manner I know I have the gift of vision.
>>
>>I know through their use.

>
> On that note, I feel we must part company in these posts.
> I feel they are decending into madness - you seem to offer no logical
> or reasonable arguements to support your theories - other than the
> circular moribund arguement all zealots peddle that is - "I know!
> Because I am special of different in some way!"
>
> People who think they are Napoleon or Joan Of Arc sound very similar
> in their convictions.
>
> It is the attitudes of people like you that made the rational approach
> of Buddhism so attractive.
>
> I hope you find peace someday.


He'll respond by telling you he has found peace with Christ.
 
Mozz wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:57:00 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Mozz wrote:
> >
> >> >
> >> >> Doctor Chung, may I ask you why you believe in God?
> >> >>
> >> >> Respectfully.
> >> >
> >> >God blessed me with the ability to discern truth.
> >>
> >> How do you know?

> >
> >I also have the gift of vision. I know I have the gift of truth
> >discernment in the same manner I know I have the gift of vision.
> >
> >I know through their use.

>
> On that note, I feel we must part company in these posts.
>


God gave us free will.

> I feel they are decending into madness


Truth has that effect on some people.

> - you seem to offer no logical
> or reasonable arguements to support your theories


Truth is not theory.

> - other than the
> circular moribund arguement all zealots peddle that is - "I know!
> Because I am special of different in some way!"
>


You asked and I answered truthfully.

>
> People who think they are Napoleon or Joan Of Arc sound very similar
> in their convictions.
>


What makes the Dalai Lama any different?

>
> It is the attitudes of people like you that made the rational approach
> of Buddhism so attractive.
>


What happened to your enlightenment?

>
> I hope you find peace someday.


Have already found it in Christ.

God's humble servant,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
 
Mozz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >I hope you won't mind my asking this, what convinced you Jesus was not God?
> >
> >Mel

>
> I don't mind you asking at all Mel.
>
> I guess it was a series of things coming together.
> I was studying theology and psycholgy, and I became aware of the many
> contradictions inherent within the synoptic gospels. I also read other
> traditions claims to God-hood (the Koran, Hinduism, Sufism,
> Zoroasterinism etc) and I realized these traditions also had equally
> valid claims. It always boils down to a choice, usually based on
> cultural circumstance.
> I realized I simply couldn't honestly say I had faith in accepting
> Jesus' claims as absolute.
>
> I started to practice buddhist dharma and meditation, met His Holiness
> the Dalai Lama and was suitably impressed by his compassionate nature
> and wisdom - and found my life changing for the better.
>
> Peace be with you Mel.


Thank you, Mozz, and may peace be with you as well.
 

>Jesus is the one who stated in John 14:
>
>6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except
>through me..."
>
>We have been discussing your views about this. You stated that you believed Jesus is truthful
>here and that you are Buddhist.


I think Jesus is truthful. Truthful people can be mistaken too.

>> >
>> >God's Word is independent of interpretation.

>>
>> That statement is meaningless.

>
>No to me.
>
>> You have an opinion on what is or what
>> is not meant by God's Word.

>
>God's Word is independent of my opinion.
>
>> An opinion is an interpretation.

>
>Correct.
>
>> Even
>> within your own religion there are many differing views on what or
>> what is not God's Word.
>>

>
>God's Word is independent of those differing views.


You must be unique among most men indeed. Why has the Church not
turned to you for guidance? It is like having Christ on earth again
surely? You 'know' God's Word....Wow!
>
>>
>> >> >isn't the mind a place?
>> >>
>> >> No. And 'place' is a reductionist concept. Letting go of such concepts
>> >> can help to cease suffering.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Are such concepts a new cause of suffering?

>>
>> All concepts are merely concepts. Nothing more. That includes the
>> concept of you, I, they, God, Heaven, Hell, Christ, Buddha, Nirvana,
>> Cardiologist...Try to let go of these Left Hemisphere of the brain
>> actions and you might start to experience something of the boundless
>> clear light that is ultimate truth.

>
>When you die will your left cortical hemisphere continue to work?


No. It will cease.

>
>>
>> >

>>
>> >Isn't the Dalai Lama enlightened?

>>
>> Part of his enlightened state is that he would never claim to be
>> enlightened. He would say he was a simple monk.

>
>Was Buddha a simple monk?


Yes.

>
>> And on one level that
>> is true - the mundane relative Truth. On the other hand, through his
>> many teachings and good works etc it is clear that he is a highly
>> realized practitioner - an enlightened being.
>>
>> As I have written on a previous post tonight, I feel there is little
>> to be gained in this fruitless dialogue.

>
>No enlightenment?


You need enlightenment? But you already know God's Word...why would
you be interested in further enlightenment?

>
>>
>> You do not seem genuinely interested in buddhist insight, and have
>> willfully misinterpreted many of my posts.
>>

>
>Hardly.
>
>>
>> I hope you find peace.
>>

>
>Have found it in Christ.
>
>>
>> And once again to any other people lurking reading this, please
>> understand that my intentions were always pure. To offer another
>> opportunity to relax the mind and body through meditation - regardless
>> of faith.
>>
>> Take Care

>
>Enjoyed the discussion.


It was amusing

Even humbler Mozz...
 

>>
>> On that note, I feel we must part company in these posts.
>>

>
>God gave us free will.


Free will is ours without conjuring a deity to explain things.
>
>> I feel they are decending into madness

>
>Truth has that effect on some people.


Clearly - I'm glad we're agreed on something :)
>
>> - you seem to offer no logical
>> or reasonable arguements to support your theories

>
>Truth is not theory.


To express Truth one needs to structure it into a theoretical
framework, otherwise it will make no sense.
>
>> - other than the
>> circular moribund arguement all zealots peddle that is - "I know!
>> Because I am special of different in some way!"
>>

>
>You asked and I answered truthfully.


I accept that.

>
>>
>> People who think they are Napoleon or Joan Of Arc sound very similar
>> in their convictions.
>>

>
>What makes the Dalai Lama any different?


By the same token what made Jesus Christ any different? Or the Pope?
Or any minister???

>
>>
>> It is the attitudes of people like you that made the rational approach
>> of Buddhism so attractive.
>>

>
>What happened to your enlightenment?


It's still a long way off...but with each day it gets nearer.

>
>>
>> I hope you find peace someday.

>
>Have already found it in Christ.


Then I am happy for you.
Let it be so.
 
Mozz wrote:

> >Jesus is the one who stated in John 14:
> >
> >6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except
> >through me..."
> >
> >We have been discussing your views about this. You stated that you believed Jesus is truthful
> >here and that you are Buddhist.

>
> I think Jesus is truthful. Truthful people can be mistaken too.
>


Are you truthful?

>
> >> >
> >> >God's Word is independent of interpretation.
> >>
> >> That statement is meaningless.

> >
> >No to me.
> >
> >> You have an opinion on what is or what
> >> is not meant by God's Word.

> >
> >God's Word is independent of my opinion.
> >
> >> An opinion is an interpretation.

> >
> >Correct.
> >
> >> Even
> >> within your own religion there are many differing views on what or
> >> what is not God's Word.
> >>

> >
> >God's Word is independent of those differing views.

>
> You must be unique among most men indeed.


It's not about me.

> Why has the Church not
> turned to you for guidance?


I'm not better than God's Word.

> It is like having Christ on earth again
> surely?


Christ is God's Word.

> You 'know' God's Word....Wow!


I'm not alone.

>
> >
> >>
> >> >> >isn't the mind a place?
> >> >>
> >> >> No. And 'place' is a reductionist concept. Letting go of such concepts
> >> >> can help to cease suffering.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Are such concepts a new cause of suffering?
> >>
> >> All concepts are merely concepts. Nothing more. That includes the
> >> concept of you, I, they, God, Heaven, Hell, Christ, Buddha, Nirvana,
> >> Cardiologist...Try to let go of these Left Hemisphere of the brain
> >> actions and you might start to experience something of the boundless
> >> clear light that is ultimate truth.

> >
> >When you die will your left cortical hemisphere continue to work?

>
> No. It will cease.
>


Why the left and not the right?

>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >Isn't the Dalai Lama enlightened?
> >>
> >> Part of his enlightened state is that he would never claim to be
> >> enlightened. He would say he was a simple monk.

> >
> >Was Buddha a simple monk?

>
> Yes.
>


Then why follow him?

>
> >
> >> And on one level that
> >> is true - the mundane relative Truth. On the other hand, through his
> >> many teachings and good works etc it is clear that he is a highly
> >> realized practitioner - an enlightened being.
> >>
> >> As I have written on a previous post tonight, I feel there is little
> >> to be gained in this fruitless dialogue.

> >
> >No enlightenment?

>
> You need enlightenment?


Isn't that the purpose of your religious beliefs... to seek enlightenment?

> But you already know God's Word...why would
> you be interested in further enlightenment?
>


Correct, I am already enlightened through Christ.

>
> >
> >>
> >> You do not seem genuinely interested in buddhist insight, and have
> >> willfully misinterpreted many of my posts.
> >>

> >
> >Hardly.
> >
> >>
> >> I hope you find peace.
> >>

> >
> >Have found it in Christ.
> >
> >>
> >> And once again to any other people lurking reading this, please
> >> understand that my intentions were always pure. To offer another
> >> opportunity to relax the mind and body through meditation - regardless
> >> of faith.
> >>
> >> Take Care

> >
> >Enjoyed the discussion.

>
> It was amusing
>


Glad you enjoyed this discourse.

>
> Even humbler Mozz...


Is the need for competition going to help you obtain Nirvana?


God's humble servant,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/