A Classic

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Tony, Jun 10, 2003.

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  1. Tony

    Tony Guest

    Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black
    in the fog!!

    Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the shits with us sometimes.
     
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  2. Rman

    Rman Guest

    "Tony" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
    > the fog!!
    >
    > Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the shits with us sometimes.

    There are morons who ride bikes, and morons who drive cars. There are morons everywhere (more at my
    work than usual, I believe). Given this as a true, and it must be, 'cos I said it on the internet,
    are you really surprised by the moronic behaviour of some cyclists ?
     
  3. Mark Lee

    Mark Lee Guest

    "Tony" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
    > the fog!!
    >
    > Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the shits with us sometimes.
    >
    I saw an Asian female at 6:10 this morning cycling anticlockwise round the Denmac Ford roundabout at
    Indooroopilly in the dark, wearing black with no lights. Mark Lee
     
  4. Claude

    Claude Guest

    What's the relevance of the 'Asian' and 'female'?

    "Mark Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Tony" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike
    rider
    > > dressed in black in the fog!!
    > >
    > > Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the shits with
    us
    > > sometimes.
    > >
    > I saw an Asian female at 6:10 this morning cycling anticlockwise round the Denmac Ford roundabout
    > at Indooroopilly in the dark, wearing black with no lights. Mark Lee
     
  5. Ghostwombat

    Ghostwombat Guest

    Why do you paint some rider as a moron, just because s/he refuses to buy into the gelati-coloured
    lycra/yellow parka image crap? When you start believing that the only way to ride safely is when you
    are glowing like a Xmas tree, then you are only a small step away from giving motorists the
    justification to say that we shouldn't even be on the road because we're a danger to ourselves.

    If motorists drove according to the conditions, it shouldn't matter what the cyclist is wearing. But
    go ahead and blame the victim... I guess it works in rape trials.

    GW

    > From: "RMan" <[email protected]> Organization: Monash Uni Newsgroups: aus.bicycle Date: Wed, 11
    > Jun 2003 11:07:01 +1000 Subject: Re: A Classic
    >
    >
    > "Tony" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >> Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
    >> the fog!!
    >>
    >> Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the shits with us sometimes.
    >
    > There are morons who ride bikes, and morons who drive cars. There are morons everywhere (more at
    > my work than usual, I believe). Given this as a true, and it must be, 'cos I said it on the
    > internet, are you really surprised by the moronic behaviour of some cyclists ?
    >
     
  6. Claude

    Claude Guest

    The poster didn't say that the rider should be wearing "gelati-coloured lycra/yellow parka image
    crap". The implication was merely that it should be something with high visibility instead of black.
    As for your deeply flawed logic re "if motorists drove according to the conditions, it shouldn't
    matter what the cyclist is wearing" well, duh, of course!! The point is that some motorists don't
    drive this way, so cyclists who have little protection must take steps to ensure they're seen.

    "ghostwombat" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:BB0D4E73.4E88%[email protected]...
    > Why do you paint some rider as a moron, just because s/he refuses to buy into the gelati-coloured
    > lycra/yellow parka image crap? When you start believing that the only way to ride safely is when
    > you are glowing like a Xmas tree, then you are only a small step away from giving motorists the
    > justification to say that we shouldn't even be on the road because we're a danger to ourselves.
    >
    > If motorists drove according to the conditions, it shouldn't matter what
    the
    > cyclist is wearing. But go ahead and blame the victim... I guess it works
    in
    > rape trials.
    >
    > GW
    >
    >
    >
    > > From: "RMan" <[email protected]> Organization: Monash Uni Newsgroups: aus.bicycle Date: Wed,
    > > 11 Jun 2003 11:07:01 +1000 Subject: Re: A Classic
    > >
    > >
    > > "Tony" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >> Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike
    rider
    > >> dressed in black in the fog!!
    > >>
    > >> Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the shits with
    us
    > >> sometimes.
    > >
    > > There are morons who ride bikes, and morons who drive cars. There are morons everywhere (more at
    > > my work than usual, I believe). Given this
    as a
    > > true, and it must be, 'cos I said it on the internet, are you really surprised by the moronic
    > > behaviour of some cyclists ?
    > >
    > >
     
  7. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    Mark Lee:

    >
    > "Tony" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
    > > the fog!!
    > >
    > > Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the shits with us sometimes.
    > >
    > I saw an Asian female at 6:10 this morning cycling anticlockwise round the Denmac Ford roundabout
    > at Indooroopilly in the dark, wearing black with no lights. Mark Lee

    Great, now the implication is that "Asian" females have no idea, as opposed to this one person
    having no idea. There doesn't seem to be any hope at all....

    WOuld you have said "I saw a white female..." if it had been the case?
     
  8. John L

    John L Guest

    So now we ban any descriptive terms completely. Try to get used to the fact that the majority of
    females in Oz are white.

    Mark was describing what he saw, he made no reference to Asian females generally, would you prefer
    an apology attached because she wasn't white.

    I agree there is no hope for fools who attach a racist tag at any opportunity. Try to get rid of the
    chip Jose.

    John L.

    On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:13:40 GMT, Jose Rizal <[email protected]_._> wrote:

    >Mark Lee:
    >
    >>
    >> "Tony" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >> > Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
    >> > the fog!!
    >> >
    >> > Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the shits with us sometimes.
    >> >
    >> I saw an Asian female at 6:10 this morning cycling anticlockwise round the Denmac Ford roundabout
    >> at Indooroopilly in the dark, wearing black with no lights. Mark Lee
    >
    >Great, now the implication is that "Asian" females have no idea, as opposed to this one person
    >having no idea. There doesn't seem to be any hope at all....
    >
    >WOuld you have said "I saw a white female..." if it had been the case?
     
  9. In aus.bicycle on Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:08:10 GMT John L <[email protected]> wrote:
    > So now we ban any descriptive terms completely. Try to get used to the fact that the majority of
    > females in Oz are white.
    >
    > Mark was describing what he saw, he made no reference to Asian females generally, would you prefer
    > an apology attached because she wasn't white.
    >

    Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he thought
    it was relevant.

    Why was it relevant?

    What does someone's race have to do with their road behaviour, unless you feel that one race or
    another behaves a certain way. Which is, suprise surprise... racism. No matter the race in question.
    Would have been just as racist to say 'white'.

    Zebee
     
  10. Mark Lee wrote:

    ...snip......

    > I saw an Asian female

    The thing that is really cracking me up is all the complaints about one of your decsriptors; asian.

    Absolutely nothing about the other; female.

    Just an observation {:)

    --
    Terry Collins {:)}}} email: terryc at woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au Wombat Outdoor
    Adventures <Bicycles, Computers, GIS, Printing,
    Publishing>

    "People without trees are like fish without clean water"
     
  11. Mark Lee

    Mark Lee Guest

    "Zebee Johnstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
    > Would have been just as racist to say 'white'.
    >

    But incorrect! Mark Lee
    P.S. I am white.

    .... but some of my best friends................
     
  12. Mark Lee

    Mark Lee Guest

    "Zebee Johnstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he
    > thought it was relevant.
    >
    > Why was it relevant?
    >

    You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where everyone drives on the right-hand
    side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their own transport due to exorbitant
    garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus, taxi or boat? Where there isn't a
    culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic from an early age? Maybe a big city where
    it never gets truly dark? I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who grew
    up in a tiny village in a country where cars are very rare. One day she may be out on our roads.
    Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the 1920's in his book "Boy"
    -incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training or entrenched motorised transport culture.

    "Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40 deaths for every 100,000
    people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher said yesterday.... about 17,520/year. ...six
    million people were injured in traffic accidents and 100,000 crippled for life last year, according
    to the National Health Institute." -from online news sources

    Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport safety culture is better than some.
    Annual road toll here is ~1750. Comparative populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car ownership
    rates are higher here but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.

    Mark Lee
     
  13. Ritch

    Ritch Guest

    Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > In aus.bicycle on Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:08:10 GMT John L <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > So now we ban any descriptive terms completely. Try to get used to the fact that the majority of
    > > females in Oz are white.
    > >
    > > Mark was describing what he saw, he made no reference to Asian females generally, would you
    > > prefer an apology attached because she wasn't white.
    > >
    >
    > Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he
    > thought it was relevant.
    >
    > Why was it relevant?
    >
    > What does someone's race have to do with their road behaviour, unless you feel that one race or
    > another behaves a certain way. Which is, suprise surprise... racism. No matter the race in
    > question. Would have been just as racist to say 'white'.
    >
    > Zebee

    The female tag was also irrelevant, as was the cyclist tag. What does someone's status as a road
    user have to do with their road behaviour, unless you feel that one kind of road user or another
    behaves a certain way. Which is, surprise surprise... err where was I?

    The meaning of a sentence is clearly in the eye of the beholder. The original poster made no claims
    whatsoever regarding the general groups: Asians (however defined), females or cyclists (or
    roundabouts ha ha). Perhaps the original poster could have foreseen that people could be offended by
    the descriptors and merely said "a moron" cyclist was riding the wrong way around a roundabout at
    night wearing dark clothes. Stupidity spans all races and genders...

    Ritch (about to ride home in the dark, with lights and bright clothes but in traffic - maybe a
    moron? Depends who you ask)
     
  14. Steve M

    Steve M Guest

    On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:49:23 +1000, Terry Collins <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Mark Lee wrote:
    >
    >...snip......
    >
    >> I saw an Asian female
    >
    >The thing that is really cracking me up is all the complaints about one of your decsriptors; asian.
    >
    >Absolutely nothing about the other; female.
    >
    >Just an observation {:)
    We all *know* that females can't drive :)

    Steve
     
  15. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    Mark Lee:

    >> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    >> Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he
    >> thought it was relevant.
    >>
    >> Why was it relevant?

    > You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where everyone drives on the right-hand
    > side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their own transport due to
    > exorbitant garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus, taxi or boat? Where
    > there isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic from an early age? Maybe a
    > big city where it never gets truly dark?

    All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
    race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards? You're
    not thinking hard enough.

    > I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who grew up in a tiny village in a
    > country where cars are very rare. One day she may be out on our roads.

    Relevance of this?

    > Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the 1920's in his book "Boy"
    > -incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training or entrenched motorised transport culture.

    Ditto.

    > "Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40 deaths for every 100,000
    > people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher said yesterday.... about 17,520/year. ...six
    > million people were injured in traffic accidents and 100,000 crippled for life last year,
    > according to the National Health Institute." -from online news sources
    >
    > Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport safety culture is better than
    > some. Annual road toll here is ~1750. Comparative populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car
    > ownership rates are higher here but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.

    Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism after all. You got pulled up for
    mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up unrelated statistics to justify it. Where
    is the link to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes? How do you know the
    woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole of Asia. "Asians" can come from many countries
    in the region.

    You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on why you
    thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be unaware of your own
    unintentional prejudices.
     
  16. SNIP
    > The meaning of a sentence is clearly in the eye of the beholder. The original poster made no
    > claims whatsoever regarding the general groups: Asians (however defined), females or cyclists (or
    > roundabouts ha ha). Perhaps the original poster could have foreseen that people could be offended
    > by the descriptors and merely said "a moron" cyclist was riding the wrong way around a roundabout
    > at night wearing dark clothes. Stupidity spans all races and genders...
    >
    > Ritch (about to ride home in the dark, with lights and bright clothes but in traffic - maybe a
    > moron? Depends who you ask)

    And what's wrong with being a moron? That statement sounds intellectualist <TIC>...

    Why is there so much fuss about statements that identify race/gender/gelati-coloured lycra, etc? I
    can't see what's offensive about someone describing me (for example) as a white male, coz I am. On
    the other hand, if someone ascribes my behaviour to my being a white male, I've got a problem.

    Terms can be used to identfy quite freely. "An Asian female", when used without ascribing
    characteristics to "Asian female" is no more than an identifying description. It's particularly
    relevent if someone else sees a rider doing the same thing in the same place; the identifying
    descriptor helps to show that it's possibly the same rider.

    I think we tend to read too much INTO terms rather than reading OUT OF what's written. To read
    chracterising racism where none is evident smacks of paranoia and insecurity. Try applying the
    principle of charity when reading other's texts...

    Muff said,

    Frank (probably certifiably moronic... and proud of it!)
     
  17. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    Frank Palermo:

    > SNIP
    > > The meaning of a sentence is clearly in the eye of the beholder. The original poster made no
    > > claims whatsoever regarding the general groups: Asians (however defined), females or cyclists
    > > (or roundabouts ha ha). Perhaps the original poster could have foreseen that people could be
    > > offended by the descriptors and merely said "a moron" cyclist was riding the wrong way around a
    > > roundabout at night wearing dark clothes. Stupidity spans all races and genders...
    > >
    > > Ritch (about to ride home in the dark, with lights and bright clothes but in traffic - maybe a
    > > moron? Depends who you ask)
    >
    > And what's wrong with being a moron? That statement sounds intellectualist <TIC>...
    >
    > Why is there so much fuss about statements that identify race/gender/gelati-coloured lycra, etc?

    "Race" isn't in the same category as "lycra etc". In fact, the term "race" itself is meaningless,
    and its use has been purely for categorising people into pigeonholes based on nothing more than
    perceived looks by past anthropologists. Read up on the etymology of "race" and you'll find quite
    interesting facts.

    > I can't see what's offensive about someone describing me (for example) as a white male, coz I am.
    > On the other hand, if someone ascribes my behaviour to my being a white male, I've got a problem.

    You've just answered your own question.

    > Terms can be used to identfy quite freely. "An Asian female", when used without ascribing
    > characteristics to "Asian female" is no more than an identifying description. It's particularly
    > relevent if someone else sees a rider doing the same thing in the same place; the identifying
    > descriptor helps to show that it's possibly the same rider.

    Which isn't the case with the previous poster. Read the post and confine your observations to that.

    > I think we tend to read too much INTO terms rather than reading OUT OF what's written. To read
    > chracterising racism where none is evident smacks of paranoia and insecurity. Try applying the
    > principle of charity when reading other's texts...

    Being unable to discern the underlying intent and significance of words used in descriptions,
    especially when issues of perceived superiority and baseless categorisation are present, smacks of
    happy ignorance of a much bigger world beyond your own little one.

    > Muff said,

    > Frank (probably certifiably moronic... and proud of it!)

    You stated it.
     
  18. John L

    John L Guest

    Jose & Zebee,

    Your idea of a balanced argument comes from having a chip on both shoulders.

    If you want to analyse any statement for long enough, you can make any self serving judgement you
    wish. The average person in Australia doesn't sit & think for an hour before making a statement, &
    doesn't expect to have it dissected by a nitpicking anal retentive.

    The main problem appears to be between your own hypersensitive ears.

    I also find your remark, "your'e not thinking hard enough", to be generally offensive & laying claim
    to some superior thought process.

    Oh no I think I've jjust caught your disease.

    John L.

    On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:28:51 GMT, Jose Rizal <[email protected]_._> wrote:

    >Mark Lee:
    >
    >>> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    >>> Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he
    >>> thought it was relevant.
    >>>
    >>> Why was it relevant?
    >
    >> You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where everyone drives on the right-hand
    >> side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their own transport due to
    >> exorbitant garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus, taxi or boat? Where
    >> there isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic from an early age? Maybe a
    >> big city where it never gets truly dark?
    >
    >All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
    >race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards? You're
    >not thinking hard enough.
    >
    >> I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who grew up in a tiny village in
    >> a country where cars are very rare. One day she may be out on our roads.
    >
    >Relevance of this?
    >
    >> Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the 1920's in his book "Boy"
    >> -incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training or entrenched motorised transport culture.
    >
    >Ditto.
    >
    >> "Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40 deaths for every 100,000
    >> people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher said yesterday.... about 17,520/year. ...six
    >> million people were injured in traffic accidents and 100,000 crippled for life last year,
    >> according to the National Health Institute." -from online news sources
    >>
    >> Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport safety culture is better than
    >> some. Annual road toll here is ~1750. Comparative populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car
    >> ownership rates are higher here but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.
    >
    >Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism after all. You got pulled up for
    >mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up unrelated statistics to justify it. Where
    >is the link to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes? How do you know the
    >woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole of Asia. "Asians" can come from many
    >countries in the region.
    >
    >You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on why you
    >thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be unaware of your
    >own unintentional prejudices.
     
  19. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    The female tag was also irrelevant, as was the cyclist tag. What does
    : someone's status as a road user have to do with their road behaviour,

    And why was the roundabout bought into it. It should have been a vehicle moving in an illegal
    direction on the road. Or can we actually remove the word vehicle as I suddenly assumed that all
    vehicles would do the wrong thing. How ridiculous. This is what happened in the US. An over
    dominance of political correctness. I put it to people that make such remarks that they are the
    racist ones to actually notice the statement. Until I read all the replies I did not even notice the
    comment about Asian female.

    When I was 8 years old there was a boy in my class that decided to call me a name. He was trying to
    hurt me by calling me that name. Thing is I did not take offence at it. Then my friends started to
    address me by that name. This name followed me through 3 schools and now I am 33 my friends still
    call me it. I gave that 8 year old boy no power over me by just not jacking up. On the other hand
    there was another boy at school who constantly resisted his nickname and therefore was attacked all
    the time with it all through school. The victims and bleeding hearts give derogatory and racist
    terms the power they do not deserve. If everyone just laughed it off then they would not have any
    power and people would not use them anymore or only in good nature. They are just groupings of
    letters after all.
     
  20. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    : Mark Lee:
    :
    : >> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    :
    : All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
    : race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards? You're
    : not thinking hard enough.

    Its people like you who give power to racism. I did not even notice the comment until you noticed
    it. Who is more racist... the one who does not even consider a comment like that or one that notices
    it and stews over it. I also did not automatically assume that cyclist or roundabouts are always at
    fault although they were also mentioned in this scenario. Its these sort of comments that heighten
    racism in this country not the other way around. I work in a place where most of my friends are
    Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese, Philippino, Indians, Nepalese, Pakistani etc etc... Oh dear it looks like
    I am racist at everyone since I can make that distinction that my friends are from different
    countries. Countries where I am well travelled.

    Peter
     
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