A Cycle Helmet saved this lady's life.



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On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:38:42 GMT, "Steve R."
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I'd rather move well over or even stop to let he/she past me.

If it's safe for them to pass they can anyway, if it's not safe then encouraging them to pass is Not
Smart. Most drivers will behave rationally in these circumstances, and for those who don't at least
you have built yourself a safety margin - somewhere to go.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
"AndyP" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > Don't do that, it's very dangerous. Get out into the 'primary riding position' - i.e. towards
> > the outside of the lane you would be driving in if your were driving a car under the same
> > conditions. Much safer.
>
> Haven't you ever found this confuses people to think you're turning right and makes them try to
> overtake you on the inside? What position you take up ought to depend on the width of the road. If
> the road's narrow take a position towards the middle, if the lane's wide enough to let traffic
> safely by if you ride further left than the middle then it'd be inconsiderate not to do so. Can't
> see that towards the outside of the lane would ever be right except on really narrow twisty roads
> to make you more visible.

Get a copy of Cyclecraft from the HMSO and read it. It will make a lot more difference to your
safety on a bike than a helmet will, for sure.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Friends don't send friends HTML formatted emails.
 
MartinM wrote:

> He also said he did did not enjoy being preached at and had had enough of listening to propanganda
> against helmet use.

Which just shows he'd missed a trick rather badly. The CTC do not preach propoganada against helmet
use, because they're not against helmets! Anti compulsion and anti helmet ate *not* the same thing,
yet many people seem to think they are. And this chap was demonstrating that very well.

> opinion on compulsion because I do not know the facts for and against compulsory helmet use.

It may be worth finding out, since uninformed people are driving it as possible legislation. The
salient fact is that in places where compulsory helmet wearing has been brought in there has been a
significant reduction in cycle use. That's not conjecture, that's what has actually happened. The
arguments can then start about whether or not that's a good or bad thing, but if you can see
anything good about fewer cyclists on the roads then I'd be interested to hear the reasoning.

> I always wear a helmet on the road. My children do the same. I simply do not believe that wearing
> or not wearing a helmet makes any difference to how we ride a bike and the degree of danger we put
> ourselves in.

Ever heard anyone say "I wouldn't do that without a helmet!". I have, many times (including from my
own lips), and that's risk compensation in action. Think about it. You say you always wear a helmet
on the road: do you think it's too dangerous without one? If you wouldn't cycle on a road without
one then that itself is an example of behavioural alteration.

> just offers SOME additional protection if the worst happens and we should happen to suffer a
> collision to the head. Every one else can do what they want. When my children are old enough to
> make an informed decision rather than worrying about being cool they can make the same choice.End
> of story.Everyone else can do what they want, it's a free country (at the moment).

And the "at the moment" is very important for those of us who, admittedly very boringly, keep
banging on about it. There really are people, right now, trying to take that choice away from you
and damage cycling and public health into the bargain. While that threat hangs over us it isn't "End
of story", it's just too important to not do anything about.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Steve R. wrote:

> In theory - Yes, but would you really want to do that with boy-racer or Mr-Rep-in-a-hurry on
> your tail?
>
> I'd rather move well over or even stop to let he/she past me.

Stop, quite possibly, but just moving into the gutter and keep going is an invitation to get
sideswiped as they squeeze through an inadequate space and you've got nowhere to go. The point is
it's *more* dangerous to be overtaken closely than to ride further out. This is fairly well
established and in the "official" cycle training manual from HMSO. Those of us advocating it do it
and do it from informed choice of having tried the alternatives, generally cycling in the gutter,
and found it scarier. Really!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:20:15 +0000 someone who may be Peter Clinch
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>Anti compulsion and anti helmet ate *not* the same thing, yet many people seem to think they are.

I tend more to the feeling that such mix ups are not accidental, but are a deliberate ploy to divert
attention.

>There really are people, right now, trying to take that choice away from you and damage cycling and
>public health into the bargain.

Sadly these people do seem to honestly believe that they will improve public health. Their belief
borders on the religious.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote

> Get a copy of Cyclecraft from the HMSO and read it. It will make a lot more difference to your
> safety on a bike than a helmet will, for sure.

I might do but it's also a good thing to think for yourself. Here are some reasons why riding
towards the outside of the lane might be distinctly less safe.

1. As I said before vehicles might assume you are turning right and undertake you in what might be a
narrow space...exactly what you are trying to avoid.

2. You are a lot closer to the spray of oncoming lorries...unpleasant and obviously potentially
dangerous if it hinders your vision.

3. You would be far less visible to the second vehicle in a line of approaching traffic who might
therefore mistakenly assume it is safe to overtake the first car in the line before it realises
you are there.

4. If a vehicle approaching fast from behind doesn't see you at all or not until braking is too late
and swerving around you is the only option you are far more likely to get hit.

5. You will annoy other road users and a road full of frustrated road users isn't good for anybody.

6. A minority of the frustrated road users might well think "what on earth does that idiot think
he's doing out there in my way" and deliberately pass dangerously closely and cut you up.

I can see that riding as close to the kerb as possible often isn't a good thing but I can't see how
"towards the outside of the lane" is any safer either. On narrower roads you don't need to be that
far out to prevent cars squeezing through the gap between you and oncoming traffic and on wider
roads if you are that far out you'll be leaving a tempting gap between you and the kerb for
undertaking. Is this really what "Cyclecraft" says?
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:11:48 -0000, "AndyP"
<[email protected]> wrote:

[SNIP]

> I can see that riding as close to the kerb as possible often isn't a good thing but I can't see
> how "towards the outside of the lane" is any safer either. On narrower roads you don't need to be
> that far out to prevent cars squeezing through the gap between you and oncoming traffic and on
> wider roads if you are that far out you'll be leaving a tempting gap between you and the kerb for
> undertaking. Is this really what "Cyclecraft" says?

Hi Andy

Perhaps I worked it badly: not in the gutter, a few feet away from the kerb, in the middle of the
lane (not road) is what I meant.

James

--
"Sorry mate, I didn't see you" is not a satisfactory excuse.
 
"AndyP" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > Get a copy of Cyclecraft from the HMSO and read it. It will make a lot more difference to your
> > safety on a bike than a helmet will, for sure.
>
> I might do but it's also a good thing to think for yourself. Here are some reasons why riding
> towards the outside of the lane might be distinctly less safe.
>
> 1. As I said before vehicles might assume you are turning right and undertake you in what might be
> a narrow space...exactly what you are trying to avoid.

Not ever happened in the past forty years; I suppose it could.

> 2. You are a lot closer to the spray of oncoming lorries...unpleasant and obviously potentially
> dangerous if it hinders your vision.

Never experienced this as a problem.

> 3. You would be far less visible to the second vehicle in a line of approaching traffic who might
> therefore mistakenly assume it is safe to overtake the first car in the line before it realises
> you are there.

If some f*cker tries it, you've somewhere safe to go. They'll try it wherever you sit in the lane,
so the further out you are the more escape space you've left yourself. Also, bang a hard fist on the
passenger side window - make enough row to make him think he's actually hit you. Scare the **** out
of him. He won't try it again.

> 4. If a vehicle approaching fast from behind doesn't see you at all or not until braking is too
> late and swerving around you is the only option you are far more likely to get hit.

I don't see that; if someone is driving that badly you'll get hit anyway.

>
> 5. You will annoy other road users and a road full of frustrated road users isn't good for
> anybody.

You cannot be blamed for annoying other road users if you are just using the road in the legitimate,
officially sanctioned manner. It is a *public* road and cyclists are entitled to use it.

> 6. A minority of the frustrated road users might well think "what on earth does that idiot think
> he's doing out there in my way" and deliberately pass dangerously closely and cut you up.

In which case stop, take their registration number, and phone the police. Remember

* On a bike, you have exactly as much right - legally - to be on the road as anyone else. You have
exactly as much right to your space in the lane as anyone else. Thats the law.

* If there is a collision - any collision - you are going to be seriously injured, whereas the car
driver is unlikely to be hurt. So you need to ride to make collisions less likely.

The three major causes of severe injury collisions involving cyclists are

(i) Motorist overtaking cyclist too close - so do NOT let them try to share your lane space.

(ii) Motorist turning left across the path of a cyclist - so do NOT let yourself be in a position
where a motorist in the left turning lane can pass you on your right.

(iii) Motorist in parked car opens door - so do NOT ride in the 'door zone' alongside parked cars.

Get out towards the outside of your lane and stay there - this is about saving your *life*, not
about worrying about whether some impatient idiot is getting frustrated.

> I can see that riding as close to the kerb as possible often isn't a good thing but I can't see
> how "towards the outside of the lane" is any safer either.

> On narrower roads you don't need to be that far out to prevent cars squeezing through the gap
> between you and oncoming traffic and on wider roads if you are that far out you'll be leaving a
> tempting gap between you and the kerb for undertaking. Is this really what "Cyclecraft" says?

Yes: that's the official government advice, and it is so for a reason; other approaches cost the
National Health Service a lot of money.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; of 90+ years of protection, but a cure for cancer, only 14? -- user 'Tackhead', in /.
discussion of copyright law, 22/05/02
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:36:13 +0000, in
<[email protected]>, James Hodson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:11:48 -0000, "AndyP" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>[SNIP]
>
>> I can see that riding as close to the kerb as possible often isn't a good thing but I can't see
>> how "towards the outside of the lane" is any safer either. On narrower roads you don't need to be
>> that far out to prevent cars squeezing through the gap between you and oncoming traffic and on
>> wider roads if you are that far out you'll be leaving a tempting gap between you and the kerb for
>> undertaking. Is this really what "Cyclecraft" says?
>
>Hi Andy
>
>Perhaps I worked it badly: not in the gutter, a few feet away from the kerb, in the middle of the
>lane (not road) is what I meant.

I always ride in the centre of the leftmost lane when on a two-lane road. I find that the repeated
action of being overtaken eventually forces me towards the kerb over a short time. I periodically
have to reclaim my position when the traffic has subsided.

I've got my copy of Cyclecraft on order, although The Stationery Office reckon it will be a long
time arriving as it is awaiting a re-print to replenish stocks.

Love and lanes from Rich x

--
Due to a typing error on the Children's Hospital menu Saturday evening now offers "Beef burger in a
bum". Email: Put only the word "richard" before the @ sign.
 
"James Hodson" <[email protected]> wrote

> Perhaps I worked it badly: not in the gutter, a few feet away from the kerb, in the middle of the
> lane (not road) is what I meant.

Yeah, I'd agree the middle of the lane would often make most sense. I thought that's what the
"primary position" meant. But elsewhere it was suggested that a position more to the right of this
would be the best option and I can see all sorts of reasons why it wouldn't be and am a bit bemused
why anyone would suggest it.
 
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote

> > 3. You would be far less visible to the second vehicle in a line of approaching traffic who
> > might therefore mistakenly assume it is safe to overtake the first car in the line before it
> > realises you are there.
>
> If some f*cker tries it, you've somewhere safe to go. They'll try it wherever you sit in the lane,
> so the further out you are the more escape space you've left yourself. Also, bang a hard fist on
> the passenger side window - make enough row to make him think he's actually hit you. Scare the
> **** out of him. He won't try it again.

Right, trying to hit cars approaching you at 50mph...excellent idea. I think reading the book might
be a better idea than trying to get any useful points on safety around here.
 
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> MartinM wrote:
>
> > He also said he did did not enjoy being preached at and had had enough of listening to
> > propanganda against helmet use.
>
> Which just shows he'd missed a trick rather badly. The CTC do not preach propoganada against
> helmet use, because they're not against helmets! Anti compulsion and anti helmet ate *not*
> the same thing, yet many people seem to think they are. And this chap was demonstrating that
> very well.
>
> > opinion on compulsion because I do not know the facts for and against compulsory helmet use.
>
> It may be worth finding out, since uninformed people are driving it as possible legislation. The
> salient fact is that in places where compulsory helmet wearing has been brought in there has been
> a significant reduction in cycle use. That's not conjecture, that's what has actually happened.
> The arguments can then start about whether or not that's a good or bad thing, but if you can see
> anything good about fewer cyclists on the roads then I'd be interested to hear the reasoning.
>
> > I always wear a helmet on the road. My children do the same. I simply do not believe that
> > wearing or not wearing a helmet makes any difference to how we ride a bike and the degree of
> > danger we put ourselves in.
>
> Ever heard anyone say "I wouldn't do that without a helmet!". I have, many times (including from
> my own lips), and that's risk compensation in action. Think about it. You say you always wear a
> helmet on the road: do you think it's too dangerous without one? If you wouldn't cycle on a road
> without one then that itself is an example of behavioural alteration.
>
> > just offers SOME additional protection if the worst happens and we should happen to suffer a
> > collision to the head. Every one else can do what they want. When my children are old enough to
> > make an informed decision rather than worrying about being cool they can make the same
> > choice.End of story.Everyone else can do what they want, it's a free country (at the moment).
>
> And the "at the moment" is very important for those of us who, admittedly very boringly, keep
> banging on about it. There really are people, right now, trying to take that choice away from you
> and damage cycling and public health into the bargain. While that threat hangs over us it isn't
> "End of story", it's just too important to not do anything about.
>
> Pete.

Sorry Pete, we'll have to agree to disagree.that's what I meant by end of story. We're all still
cyclists, let's just enjoy it. MM
 
Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote ...
> When I used to commute the 12 mile down the A10s into Cambridge on a
regular
> basis I would nearly always note with satisfaction that many of the
vehicles
> which passed me as I started my journey would be stuck in the queue on the outskirts of Cambridge
> as I passed them. I like to hope that many of them noticed it too.
>

It can even work on feet as well. When I was a student in Manchester (1978-9, before real
congestion), I used to walk in 4 miles from my digs to college every day, and count the number of
buses that I passed, or passed me. It used to average about -3 (passed by 3 more buses than I
passed), but on one memorable occasion I scored +17, despite only walking half as fast as normal.
The reason? -- freezing rain had put about 1/4 inch of solid ice all over everything - road,
pavement, trees, parked cars, the lot. Glad I wasn't riding, in retrospect - I got the bike the
following spring, and haven't looked back since.

Andrew
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:08:14 -0000, "AndyP"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Yeah, I'd agree the middle of the lane would often make most sense. I thought that's what the
>"primary position" meant.

Me too. Perhaps we both are correct and everyone else is wrong ;-)

James

--
"Sorry mate, I didn't see you" is not a satisfactory excuse.
 
[email protected] (MartinM)typed

> >
> > And the "at the moment" is very important for those of us who, admittedly very boringly, keep
> > banging on about it. There really are people, right now, trying to take that choice away from
> > you and damage cycling and public health into the bargain. While that threat hangs over us it
> > isn't "End of story", it's just too important to not do anything about.
> >
> > Pete.

> Sorry Pete, we'll have to agree to disagree.that's what I meant by end of story. We're all still
> cyclists, let's just enjoy it. MM

In the mean time, be warned that people like Sarah Levene, of the Child Accident Prevention Trust,
have said that that they want helmet compulsion when the public has been 'softened' by general
helmet usage increasing...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email protected] Edgware.
 
In news:[email protected],
Andrew Sweetman <[email protected]> typed:
> Glad I wasn't riding, in retrospect - I got the bike the following spring, and haven't looked
> back since.

Andrew, please try looking back, as it can be a useful thing to do before pulling out to do a right
hand turn, etc, etc.
 
"David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >There really are people, right now, trying to take that choice away from you and damage cycling
> >and public health into the bargain.
>
> Sadly these people do seem to honestly believe that they will improve public health. Their belief
> borders on the religious.

If these people really cared about the populations' health they'd turn their attention to all the
other well publicised causes of premature death: smoking, drinking, obesity etc. But all they do in
these instances is offer advice and guidelines whereas they seem to eventually want adult cyclists
to be compelled by law to wear hel-bloody-mets!

Just another example of petty, interfering busybodies.

Pete
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:46:04 GMT, Helen Deborah Vecht
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] (MartinM)typed
>
>> >
>> > And the "at the moment" is very important for those of us who, admittedly very boringly, keep
>> > banging on about it. There really are people, right now, trying to take that choice away from
>> > you and damage cycling and public health into the bargain. While that threat hangs over us it
>> > isn't "End of story", it's just too important to not do anything about.
>> >
>> > Pete.
>
>> Sorry Pete, we'll have to agree to disagree.that's what I meant by end of story. We're all still
>> cyclists, let's just enjoy it. MM
>
>In the mean time, be warned that people like Sarah Levene, of the Child Accident Prevention Trust,
>have said that that they want helmet compulsion when the public has been 'softened' by general
>helmet usage increasing...

compulsion following voluntary adoption is pretty much the govt's stance. every time you wear a
helmet is a vote for compulsion.
 
MartinM wrote:

> Sorry Pete, we'll have to agree to disagree.that's what I meant by end of story. We're all still
> cyclists, let's just enjoy it.

I'm sorry too, because the people driving for compulsory helmet legislation don't see the current
situation is the end of the story, and there'll be less people enjoying cycling if they get their
way. I don't think that's all right, so I won't just roll over and shut my eyes even though it would
be easier for me. We're all still cyclists, rather than "just enjoy it" lets fight for it a bit!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
"Andrew Sweetman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> The reason? -- freezing rain had put about 1/4 inch of solid ice all over everything - road,
> pavement, trees, parked cars, the lot. Glad I wasn't riding, in retrospect

Yep. Bikes do not cope well on sheet ice or hard packed snow unless you go to studded tyres. A
conventionally shod bike will slide out from under you faster than you could believe possible.

--
Dave...
 
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