A good night riding and dodging.

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Steve Knight, Oct 29, 2003.

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  1. Eric S. Sande <[email protected]> wrote:
    : Exactly. The tradeoff is excessive in terms of personal safety when riding outside the envelope in
    : an urban situation, for sure.

    i can barely make sense of this. what tradeoff? what envelope?
    --
    david reuteler [email protected]
     


  2. >:Exactly. The tradeoff is excessive in terms of personal safety when :riding outside the envelope
    >in an urban situation, for sure.

    >i can barely make sense of this. what tradeoff? what envelope?

    The envelope is a term used to describe the safe operating parameters of a device, usually an
    aircraft, but it's generally applicable.

    You can look up the derivation on the web.

    In general discourse, "operating outside the envelope" is taken to mean going beyond the safety
    guidelines or the generally accepted principles of operation. Perhaps without knowing them.

    It could also mean foolhardiness.

    "Pushing the envelope" is similar but implies that the operator has chosen risk under well
    recognized parameters, but is still taking a chance.

    "Tradeoff" is generally interpreted as reward versus risk.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
  3. Sandor

    Sandor Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Eric S. Sande <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Always. Kill 'em with kindness, and defeat 'em with class.
    >
    >I sure wish I'd read that before this morning's commute.
    >
    >Now I'm not Politenessman by any stretch of the imagination, but I do have a well honed sense of
    >self preservation. And I do obey the traffic laws, and I try my best to accommodate other road
    >users when it doesn't compromise my own safety.
    ...snip...
    >Now that I'm calmer about this incident, it occurs to me that maybe the belly crawling son of a
    >bitch somehow believed that he had an absolute right to road dominance.
    >
    >Or that I didn't belong there. Which is strange, since he had DC plates. I would have been better
    >prepared to expect that kind of shit from MD or VA or DP plates, but not from DC plates.
    >
    >Anyway, I feel better now that I've ranted.

    Rip off his wiper blade, and tell the cops you had to grab onto it to keep from falling when he
    'dominated' the road at your expense?

    Hard to tell; ya always end up on the losing end of these things. Good for you that you kept
    control...

    S
     
  4. Eric S. Sande <[email protected]> wrote:
    :
    :>:Exactly. The tradeoff is excessive in terms of personal safety when :riding outside the envelope
    :>in an urban situation, for sure.
    :
    :>i can barely make sense of this. what tradeoff? what envelope?
    :
    : You can look up the derivation on the web.

    i understand the terms, eric. just not what you're trying to say.

    what is the tradeoff being made, for example. be explicit.

    you do realize i'm not being completely serious? or perhaps you want to go for the pedantic award
    with the guy who told claire not to talk to busdrivers while the bus is in motion.

    wait. you already get that for defining tradeoff and envelope w/o bothering to put the whole matter
    into context.
    --
    david reuteler [email protected]
     
  5. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:46:18 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >I am often tempted to take my steel U-lock and smash in the windows of hostile driver dorks. That's
    >why I carry it zipped up in my backpack out of easy reach.

    Your cleats are stuck to the bottom of your shoes, always in exactly the same place on the end of
    your feet...
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  6. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (AJRBJR) writes:
    >>She could have gone, and not held-up traffic. But instead, she decided to stop for me, and hold up
    >>traffic,
    >
    > This usually works for me in this situation when I would rather they just go. I look down and fool
    > with my computer or pretend I am gonna fool with something on my bike or get some water etc. I
    > don't eyball them and they just figure I'm gonna stay there for a bit and they just take off.

    Heh. I agree, it's sometimes best to play 'em close to the chest, rather than constantly doing the
    eye contact and communication thing. Sometimes it's best not to tip one's hand too soon.

    At the time, I was stopped somewhat ahead of the stop line so I could see what was coming, around a
    line of parked car on the cross street at my left. A sight-line issue.

    Trouble is, rolling up ahead of the stop line and poking up closer to the crossing traffic also can
    indicate an impatient determination on one's part to go, and I guess that's how the postie took it.
    Meanwhile, although I was well up toward the left of my "lane" (on a wide but unstriped street) so
    as to let right-turners behind me go by, and to indicate I was going straight through on this skewed
    intersection, the right-turner who had just hauled up behind me, was chickening out of coming up
    alongside me to make his turn.

    So I detached from the pedal and side-stepped me & my bike even more leftward, and rolled back a bit
    to invite the right-turner behind me to also get a clear view of the side traffic; when I looked up,
    the postie was yelling at me about my not paying attention to her stopping. I yelled back to her
    something like, "I'm the one with the stop sign, sister!" But by then, *everybody* in all directions
    was stopping. So I just went.

    Maybe I should've just mooned her as I rode past.

    In this city, it's often easy to create a break in cross traffic at non-traffic-light intersections
    by skoogying ahead of the stop line (taking heads-up care, of course, so as to not get run over by
    traffic coming from various directions).

    Once in awhile, it works against ya. Or rather, works against everybody. It's a tactic best
    not abused.

    But sometimes, bad sight-lines force one into expressing ambiguous "road English".

    Southbound Ontario & 16th isn't the worst intersection in town, but it might be one of the
    screwiest.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  7. The Real Bev

    The Real Bev Guest

    Bernie wrote:
    >
    > Tom Keats wrote:
    >
    > >The razmattazz where drivers give up their proper ROW, fearing the cyclist will behave
    > >unpredicatably, might sometimes be justified.
    > >
    > >But sometimes, I think they do it passive-aggressively. The only good way to deal with it is to
    > >rise above it and be impeccable, unhittable, good-natured, and irrepressible.
    > >
    > You've said it so well! Cheers and best regards, Bernie

    They ALL do it passive-aggressively except for the truly stupid ones. If there are two lanes of
    traffic, or any approaching traffic at all, and one of these idiots chooses to stop for me I will
    not cross under any circumstances. The fact that the idiot stopped does not mean that everybody is
    going to stop (especially the inattentive person who doesn't even notice the stopped car in the
    other lane) or that the stopped person isn't going to leap ahead when (s)he accidentally looks in
    her mirror and notices the cement truck bearing down on her. It's generally a her, but not always.

    I once had to lay my bicycle down and make extreme gestures before the idiot would move.

    --
    Cheers, Bev
    *******************************************
    My computer doesn't have to be friendly;
    civil is entirely sufficient.
     
  8. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, The Real Bev <[email protected]> writes:

    > They ALL do it passive-aggressively except for the truly stupid ones.

    I'm inclined to agree.

    > The fact that the idiot stopped does not mean that everybody is going to stop

    In my case, that's exactly what did happen. And so unnecessarily. That's what I find .. not
    aggravating, but disturbing. I don't wanna disrupt traffic; I just wanna do my bit to help keep the
    flow going. I suppose I chanced upon a criticality of passive-aggressive types, and a self-
    sustaining chain reaction of passive-aggressiveness ensued.

    And that's why I'm inclined to agree with you.

    All I did was to properly stop, watch and wait for a break in the cross traffic, and let a driver
    behind me go by to make a right turn. Next thing I know, the whole intersection comes to a
    standstill to let/make the "unpredictable" cyclist get out of the way. Just because one driver
    stopped and improperly yielded her ROW to me. And she was on the *far* side of the cross street!

    In this particular situation, I can't help sensing I was singled out and "made an example of",
    because I was on a bike instead of in a car. It doesn't feel good at all. If I were a meanie, having
    the power to stop intesections-full of traffic /might/ feel good. But that's not the case. Not by a
    long shot.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  9. >what is the tradeoff being made, for example. be explicit.

    When find yourself in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging.

    I concede your point, sir.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
  10. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, "Eric S. Sande" <[email protected]> writes:

    > Some individual directly behind me decides to lay on his horn.

    /That's/ when to moon 'em. Also when they do the engine-revving thing.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  11. Jay

    Jay Guest

    in article [email protected], Bernie at [email protected] wrote on
    10/30/03 4:09 AM:

    >
    >
    > Tom Keats wrote:
    >
    >> <sarcasm> I guess it was my fault for being there, on a bike. <\sarcasm>
    >>
    >> Even when ya try to do right, there are passive-aggressives out there to screw up your moves. If
    >> you follow the letter of the law, they'll screw ya, and then complain about ya. If ya don't
    >> follow the letter of the law, they still complain about ya. Fug 'em all. And fug dabbing and
    >> truly stopping at 4-way stops unless ya really gotta. As far as I'm concerned, drivers who gripe
    >> about cyclists, can shove their complaints up their collective fuggin' ass. And pull it out, and
    >> shove it again. And again.
    >>
    >> I dunno why some drivers are so perineal, but they sure are, when they are.
    >>
    >>
    >> cheers, Tom
    >>
    > In the streets, bicycles are the smallest and most vulnerable. It brings behaviours out in
    > drivers. Some are arrogant and insensitive to your survival, others are more like your postie.
    > They both behave the way they do because they can play the superior posturing to the inferior. I
    > definitely understand your frustration. Happens more in Vancouver than other cities in my
    > experience. Hate it myself, out there riding in a vehicular manner and being treated like a
    > pedestrian... Tom, don't let the (nice but dim) bastards grind you down! Bernie

    When I am *wrongly* given the right of way- I usually wave a friendly small "hello" wave and smile.
    Next I wave them through to continue on their legal right of way and continue smiling. If they keep
    urging me to illegally move on- I shake my head "no" and wait for them to go on. After they pass I
    say " Thanks, but I prefer to drive legally" and smile.

    I feel that behaving legally and predictably- both the motorists and all cyclists helps reduce
    accident by having less random interpretations.

    I keep it friendly, but informative because I like to believe that they mean well, but I prefer
    predictable driving by everyone.
     
  12. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Jay wrote:

    >
    >When I am *wrongly* given the right of way- I usually wave a friendly small "hello" wave and smile.
    >Next I wave them through to continue on their legal right of way and continue smiling. If they keep
    >urging me to illegally move on- I shake my head "no" and wait for them to go on. After they pass I
    >say " Thanks, but I prefer to drive legally" and smile.
    >
    >I feel that behaving legally and predictably- both the motorists and all cyclists helps reduce
    >accident by having less random interpretations.
    >
    >I keep it friendly, but informative because I like to believe that they mean well, but I prefer
    >predictable driving by everyone.
    >
    Me too! "Go with the Flow" works best IMO. A lot of drivers break the flow when they see a bicycle.
    I've been told that in many Asian countries bicycles must be treated as pedestrians, and they
    continue the practice in North America. I don't know definitely, but that does appear to be true.
    Currently I'm doing about what you wrote above. If they insist, I just cross my arms and stop
    looking at them until they move on. Best regards, Bernie
     
  13. The Real Bev wrote:

    >>Tom Keats wrote:
    >>
    >>>The razmattazz where drivers give up their proper ROW,
    >
    > They ALL do it passive-aggressively except for the truly stupid ones.

    No, I don't believe that's true.

    Once, we were trying to turn left off a nearby two-lane state highway. Traffic was moderate, and we
    could turn as soon as one oncoming car cleared us. We slowed and signaled as we approached the turn
    so as to synchronize with a big gap behind that first car.

    But he slowed, and slowed, and slowed, until we had to stop. He began frantically waving for us to
    turn left in front of him despite our head-shaking. Then he stopped, blocking the cars which had (by
    now) caught up to him. We shook our heads wonderingly, but turned left.

    Turned out it was our next door neighbor, a very intelligent, very nice kid. He was honestly trying
    to be helpful. It's just that he screwed it up terribly.

    --
    Frank Krygowski
     
  14. Ajrbjr

    Ajrbjr Guest

    From Tom....
    > when I looked up, the postie was yelling at me about my not paying attention to her stopping. I
    > yelled back to her something like, "I'm the one with the stop sign, sister!" But by then,
    > *everybody* in all directions was stopping. So I just went.

    Sounds like one of those no win situations. I guess sometimes you just gotta say, "It ain't the way
    it's supposed to work so I'm just getting the hell outta here."

    Andy
     
  15. Hunrobe

    Hunrobe Guest

    >[email protected] (Tom Keats)

    wrote in part:

    >If I were a meanie, having the power to stop intesections-full of traffic /might/ feel good.

    Are you _trying_ to start yet another C-M thread?

    Regards, Bob Hunt
     
  16. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "frkrygowHALTSPAM" <"frkrygowHALTSPAM"@cc.ysu.edu> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > The Real Bev wrote:
    >
    > >>Tom Keats wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>The razmattazz where drivers give up their proper ROW,
    > >
    > > They ALL do it passive-aggressively except for the truly stupid ones.
    >
    > No, I don't believe that's true.
    >
    > Once, we were trying to turn left off a nearby two-lane state highway. Traffic was moderate, and
    > we could turn as soon as one oncoming car cleared us. We slowed and signaled as we approached the
    > turn so as to synchronize with a big gap behind that first car.
    >
    > But he slowed, and slowed, and slowed, until we had to stop. He began frantically waving for us to
    > turn left in front of him despite our head-shaking. Then he stopped, blocking the cars which had
    > (by now) caught up to him. We shook our heads wonderingly, but turned left.
    >
    > Turned out it was our next door neighbor, a very intelligent, very nice kid. He was honestly
    > trying to be helpful. It's just that he screwed it up terribly.

    People do that here in the South. Everyone's so damn polite all the time, it's a neverending game of
    "no, after you." Sometimes oncoming cars even stop in the middle of a deserted highway, to let
    another car with its signal on make a left turn in front of them!

    While I appreciate their courtesy, it's so much easier if everyone just follows the rules. This
    applies to drivers waiting for me at 4 way stops, too. I can't always tell if they are indeed
    waiting for me, or just picking their nose -- and I'd rather not take the chance. So drivers, when
    it's your turn, just go!

    Matt O.
     
  17. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hunrobe) writes:
    >>[email protected] (Tom Keats)
    >
    > wrote in part:
    >
    >>If I were a meanie, having the power to stop intesections-full of traffic /might/ feel good.
    >
    > Are you _trying_ to start yet another C-M thread?

    I guess we're about due for one. Lessee, we've just gone through helmets, riders bounding heedlessly
    into traffic, fatal bike-car collisions, some law enforcement stuff ... Haven't seen steel vs.
    aluminum, airless tires or the failings & limitations of Huffies for awhile. Might as well do C-M.

    Maybe the drivers around here have become too acclimatized to C-M, so they now gladly stop for
    bicycles at the mere drop of a hat.

    I tried to start a skinwall vs gumwall thread awhile back, but I guess sidewalls just aren't much of
    an emotionally charged issue.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  18. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    frkrygowHALTSPAM wrote:

    > The Real Bev wrote:
    >
    >>> Tom Keats wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> The razmattazz where drivers give up their proper ROW,
    >>>
    >>
    >> They ALL do it passive-aggressively except for the truly stupid ones.
    >
    >
    > No, I don't believe that's true.
    >
    > Once, we were trying to turn left off a nearby two-lane state highway. Traffic was moderate, and
    > we could turn as soon as one oncoming car cleared us. We slowed and signaled as we approached the
    > turn so as to synchronize with a big gap behind that first car.
    >
    > But he slowed, and slowed, and slowed, until we had to stop. He began frantically waving for us to
    > turn left in front of him despite our head-shaking. Then he stopped, blocking the cars which had
    > (by now) caught up to him. We shook our heads wonderingly, but turned left.
    >
    > Turned out it was our next door neighbor, a very intelligent, very nice kid. He was honestly
    > trying to be helpful. It's just that he screwed it up terribly.
    >
    That exact thing happens all the time. Just what I wrote about today "drivers who break the flow".
    They seem to have the best interests in mind, but perform lethally dangerous behaviour. Scary, if
    one is out there on a frame of pipes, surrounded by uptight drivers of tanks. Bernie
     
  19. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    AJRBJR wrote:

    >From Tom....
    >
    >>when I looked up, the postie was yelling at me about my not paying attention to her stopping. I
    >>yelled back to her something like, "I'm the one with the stop sign, sister!" But by then,
    >>*everybody* in all directions was stopping. So I just went.
    >>
    >
    >Sounds like one of those no win situations. I guess sometimes you just gotta say, "It ain't the way
    >it's supposed to work so I'm just getting the hell outta here."
    >
    >Andy
    >
    >
    Yeah, but to steal a line from "Laugh In" (when was that?) the little German says "Veeerrry
    interesting... But shtoopid!" I had someone yield to me when THEY were in the traffic circle, and I
    was approaching... hello??? Regards, Bernie
     
  20. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Tom Keats wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hunrobe) writes:
    >
    >>>[email protected] (Tom Keats)
    >>>
    >>wrote in part:
    >>
    >>>If I were a meanie, having the power to stop intesections-full of traffic /might/ feel good.
    >>>
    >>Are you _trying_ to start yet another C-M thread?
    >>
    >
    >I guess we're about due for one. Lessee, we've just gone through helmets, riders bounding
    >heedlessly into traffic, fatal bike-car collisions, some law enforcement stuff ... Haven't seen
    >steel vs. aluminum, airless tires or the failings & limitations of Huffies for awhile. Might as
    >well do C-M.
    >
    >Maybe the drivers around here have become too acclimatized to C-M, so they now gladly stop for
    >bicycles at the mere drop of a hat.
    >
    >I tried to start a skinwall vs gumwall thread awhile back, but I guess sidewalls just aren't much
    >of an emotionally charged issue.
    >
    >
    >cheers, Tom
    >
    I DO have thoughts and opinions about gumwall tires, but it does not raise my temperature!
    ;-) Bernie
     
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