A good night riding and dodging.

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Steve Knight, Oct 29, 2003.

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  1. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

    Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:42:43 -0800, <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tom
    Keats) wrote:

    >Maybe the drivers around here have become too acclimatized to C-M, so they now gladly stop for
    >bicycles at the mere drop of a hat.

    I often wonder what other cyclists must think when they hear us rant about what might seem an ideal
    situation compared to the war-zones they're navigating.

    It gets me thinking too, how many naive cyclists may have been lured into traps by well intentioned,
    though thoroughly ignorant, drivers.

    And further, I'm reminded to be careful what you wish for because you just might get it. I'd love to
    see draconian penalties for killer asswipe drivers. However, if they all suddenly become overly
    cautious in an effort to protect their all precious driving privileges, we might never get anywhere
    with them balking at every intersection.

    And now a paradigm permutation: I was turning south from a stop on an eastbound avenue. Car turning
    north from the back lane a half block south of me. My rear tire skidded on the leaf goo, I recovered
    but the bike didn't feel or sound right so I pulled to the curb, stopped and got off the bike to
    investigate.

    That's when the car that had turned out of the lane way stopped, the driver rolled down their window
    and asked if everything was okay.

    trying to act like a human being. "Yeah, everything's fine. Thanks for asking." Turned out I was
    riding on some washboarded section that made for the bike's sudden weirdness.
    --
    zk
     


  2. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

    Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:06:12 -0800, <[email protected]>, Bernie
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >>I keep it friendly, but informative because I like to believe that they mean well, but I prefer
    >>predictable driving by everyone.
    >>
    >Me too! "Go with the Flow" works best IMO. A lot of drivers break the flow when they see a bicycle.
    >I've been told that in many Asian countries bicycles must be treated as pedestrians, and they
    >continue the practice in North America. I don't know definitely, but that does appear to be true.
    >Currently I'm doing about what you wrote above. If they insist, I just cross my arms and stop
    >looking at them until they move on. Best regards, Bernie

    That may explain the idiot's problem tonight: they've not yet learned the rules of these roads and
    they're automatically licensed to kill.

    Southbound Heather at King Edward Blvd. so you know my blood pressure is already elevated. It's
    happened to me at this corner at least once in recent memory so tonight, thinking about this
    thread and my history at this corner, I approached it wondering whether it was going to happen
    again. It did.

    First dash across the westbound lanes and dabbed on the curb of the boulevard waiting for eastbound
    traffic. You'd think the first car would panic not knowing whether I was going to be able to stop in
    the devil's strip, but they didn't balk and neither did the next four or five cars. Then, sure
    enough a minivan is slowing, no turn signal on though that means nothing. He stops, I look away.
    He's still there. I'm sitting there with my arms folded across my chest telling them to move as the
    traffic starts to back up. The far lane is still moving and this puke is waving me across. There's
    no way I'm going anywhere. Pretty soon I'm screaming at the guy to move his stinking shitbox, learn
    how to drive, just follow the rules and DON'T think you're doing me any favours. He's sitting there
    either being stupid or stubborn. One car is blowing its horn, other cars are swinging out around
    him. I'm still not going to go in front of this asswipe.

    Finally I put my bike up on the boulevard clear of the sidewalk and started riding westbound on
    the grass. It being my plan to get to the rear of the line and jump off the curb before heading
    back east ahead of the next clump, and turn right to continue along Heather. Some ignoramus
    starts shaking their finger at me like I'd caused their delay. "EAT SHIT SCUMFUK" is what they
    got in reply.

    I rode one block further and it happened again at a mini-roundabout. Car approaching from the
    right on a collision course, I'm slowing to let them clear the intersection ahead of me but
    instead they decide to stop right in my path. It could have been a classic "I didn't see you"
    because they were going until they saw a bicycle and then froze. At least they were able to figure
    out what "MOVE" means.
    --
    zk
     
  3. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Zoot Katz <[email protected]il.com> writes:

    > I often wonder what other cyclists must think when they hear us rant about what might seem an
    > ideal situation compared to the war-zones they're navigating.

    It's not so ideal. It's NOT always a case of:
    - Driver improperly stops for waiting cyclist.
    - Cyclist: "Thanks, but no, thanks."
    - Driver: "Okay."
    - Driver is on his merry way.

    Rather, as you know, some of these drivers obdurately persist to a point well beyond courtesy and
    niceness. It's certainly not courteous to the other drivers behind them, that they're holding up.

    > It gets me thinking too, how many naive cyclists may have been lured into traps by well
    > intentioned, though thoroughly ignorant, drivers.

    If they're used to getting around by alt. trans., probably not too many. It's much the same as when
    the outside lane stops to let a pedestrian cross, but the inside lane doesn't, and the vehicle that
    stops is a cube van that the ped can't see around (nor can the traffic in the inside lane). It's
    something one learns to watch out for. I wonder if naive drivers who've just gotten out of their
    cars and then attempt to cross the street on foot readily fall into that trap. Maybe the worst
    drivers are also the worst pedestrians.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  4. In article <[email protected]>,
    Bernie <[email protected]> wrote:

    > frkrygowHALTSPAM wrote:
    >
    > > The Real Bev wrote:
    > >
    > >>> Tom Keats wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>> The razmattazz where drivers give up their proper ROW,

    [story about ROW deleted]

    > That exact thing happens all the time. Just what I wrote about today "drivers who break the flow".
    > They seem to have the best interests in mind, but perform lethally dangerous behaviour. Scary, if
    > one is out there on a frame of pipes, surrounded by uptight drivers of tanks. Bernie

    You don't want to hear this, but one reason drivers tend to actively cede right of way to cyclists
    is because they expect them to do something stupid, unpredictable, or both. And given the fair
    number of riders I see scooting down sidewalks, the wrong way, and not looking when they cross
    roads, alleys, driveways, etc., I'd say the drivers have the right idea.

    Besides the fact that even good cyclists can goof, and some drivers are acutely aware that a
    misjudgment involving a cyclist is going to hurt or kill the cyclist, we "good cyclists" aren't
    wearing identifying marks that say "I will obey the rules of the road, unlike the last five riders
    you encountered". I see guys who are experienced commuters but routinely blow some red-light
    intersections without a glance (I admit to the occasional finessing of T-intersections against the
    light, but I do so conscious that in that case I am legally responsible for any resulting accident,
    and I ride accordingly, which is to say at a walking pace and way out of the way of any cars).

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  5. Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
    : You don't want to hear this, but one reason drivers tend to actively cede right of way to cyclists
    : is because they expect them to do something stupid, unpredictable, or both.

    ding!

    at one intersection on my commute and almost w/o fail if i signal a left turn all the cars coming
    across my path will stop. w/o fail they take my signal as an indication that i'm about to bolt into
    the street.

    well, there's a donut shop on the intersection and one day while i was, umm, eating a donut* i sat
    and watched 3 cyclists do just that.

    so, i don't wonder why anymore.

    * glaze w/ black coffee.. yum.
    --
    david reuteler [email protected]
     
  6. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Zoot Katz wrote:

    >Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:06:12 -0800, <[email protected]>, Bernie
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Me too! "Go with the Flow" works best IMO. A lot of drivers break the flow when they see a
    >>bicycle. I've been told that in many Asian countries bicycles must be treated as pedestrians, and
    >>they continue the practice in North America. I don't know definitely, but that does appear to be
    >>true. Currently I'm doing about what you wrote above. If they insist, I just cross my arms and
    >>stop looking at them until they move on. Best regards, Bernie
    >>
    >
    >That may explain the idiot's problem tonight: they've not yet learned the rules of these roads and
    >they're automatically licensed to kill.
    >
    >Southbound Heather at King Edward Blvd. so you know my blood pressure is already elevated. It's
    >happened to me at this corner at least once in recent memory so tonight, thinking about this
    >thread and my history at this corner, I approached it wondering whether it was going to happen
    >again. It did.
    >
    >First dash across the westbound lanes and dabbed on the curb of the boulevard waiting for eastbound
    >traffic. You'd think the first car would panic not knowing whether I was going to be able to stop
    >in the devil's strip, but they didn't balk and neither did the next four or five cars. Then, sure
    >enough a minivan is slowing, no turn signal on though that means nothing. He stops, I look away.
    >He's still there. I'm sitting there with my arms folded across my chest telling them to move as the
    >traffic starts to back up. The far lane is still moving and this puke is waving me across. There's
    >no way I'm going anywhere. Pretty soon I'm screaming at the guy to move his stinking shitbox, learn
    >how to drive, just follow the rules and DON'T think you're doing me any favours. He's sitting there
    >either being stupid or stubborn. One car is blowing its horn, other cars are swinging out around
    >him. I'm still not going to go in front of this asswipe.
    >
    >Finally I put my bike up on the boulevard clear of the sidewalk and started riding westbound on
    >the grass. It being my plan to get to the rear of the line and jump off the curb before heading
    >back east ahead of the next clump, and turn right to continue along Heather. Some ignoramus
    >starts shaking their finger at me like I'd caused their delay. "EAT SHIT SCUMFUK" is what they
    >got in reply.
    >
    >I rode one block further and it happened again at a mini-roundabout. Car approaching from the
    >right on a collision course, I'm slowing to let them clear the intersection ahead of me but
    >instead they decide to stop right in my path. It could have been a classic "I didn't see you"
    >because they were going until they saw a bicycle and then froze. At least they were able to figure
    >out what "MOVE" means.
    >
    Zoot - just do your mantra This behaviour isn't going to end in your lifetime (may you live long and
    prosper!). Personally, I'm working on my anger. Been trying not to yell at people who stop when they
    have the right of way, not doing rude hand signals at people who invite me to kill myself crossing a
    multilane street...

    Those guys who stop whilst IN the turning circles do get me vocalizing, but I'm working on it!! :-}

    Very Best regards, Bernie
     
  7. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Ryan Cousineau wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Bernie <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>frkrygowHALTSPAM wrote:
    >>
    >>>The Real Bev wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>>Tom Keats wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>The razmattazz where drivers give up their proper ROW,
    >>>>>>
    >
    >[story about ROW deleted]
    >
    >>That exact thing happens all the time. Just what I wrote about today "drivers who break the flow".
    >>They seem to have the best interests in mind, but perform lethally dangerous behaviour. Scary, if
    >>one is out there on a frame of pipes, surrounded by uptight drivers of tanks. Bernie
    >>
    >
    >You don't want to hear this, but one reason drivers tend to actively cede right of way to cyclists
    >is because they expect them to do something stupid, unpredictable, or both. And given the fair
    >number of riders I see scooting down sidewalks, the wrong way, and not looking when they cross
    >roads, alleys, driveways, etc., I'd say the drivers have the right idea.
    >
    Oh what you say is perfectly true. I still think it is safest for drivers to continue to flow
    forward, and just be aware. I'm going to continue to ride as a vehicle and just work on maintaining
    good manners and communicating in a decent way with motorists. Bernie
     
  8. Austinmn

    Austinmn Guest

    Tom Keats wrote:

    <snip>
    > Maybe the worst drivers are also the worst pedestrians.

    No maybe about it. When I worked in Boston, I at least three times I saw jackass drivers cuss at a
    pedestrian (for jaywalking in front of him), park, jaywalk themselves, then cuss at an approaching
    driver for doing the same thing he had just done while trying to park. On at least two of those
    occasions, said double-jackass also double parked, making them triple-jackasses.

    Austin
    --
    email: remove X's to reply AustinMN was formerly known as AustinBoston
     
  9. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    Note: This message was queued when I expected it to be immediately sent. Sending much later now...

    On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:01:43 -0800, [email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote:
    >Rather, as you know, some of these drivers obdurately persist to a point well beyond courtesy and
    >niceness. It's certainly not courteous to the other drivers behind them, that they're holding up.

    Indeed, they're quite scared of bicyclists; they're afraid that they will hurt a bicyclist, and be
    responsible for it. So, they obstinately insist that the bicyclist do what is now expected. They
    also figure "damn jerk on a bike won't even take it when I give it to him..."

    Whether bicycling or driving, if somebody wants me to take their right of way, I do so, on
    the condition that it's safe. Otherwise, indeed, you get into the endless "no, you go!"
    politeness match.

    >something one learns to watch out for. I wonder if naive drivers who've just gotten out of their
    >cars and then attempt to cross the street on foot readily fall into that trap. Maybe the worst
    >drivers are also the worst pedestrians.

    Probably. Knowing how to use the road does help when you're...on the road! :)

    >cheers, Tom
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  10. On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 19:52:12 -0800, Bernie <[email protected]> wrote:

    >>
    >I had someone yield to me when THEY were in the traffic circle, and I was approaching... hello???
    >Regards, Bernie

    If this was an older person... This used to actually be the law in Massachusetts. I couldn't believe
    it the first time I drove there.

    larry
    --
    To reply by e-mail, be polite. Rudeness will get you nowhere.
     
  11. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Larry Schuldt wrote:

    >On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 19:52:12 -0800, Bernie <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>I had someone yield to me when THEY were in the traffic circle, and I was approaching... hello???
    >>Regards, Bernie
    >>
    >
    >If this was an older person... This used to actually be the law in Massachusetts. I couldn't
    >believe it the first time I drove there.
    >
    >larry
    >
    It was a youngish person who, as far as I could tell, does not know the rules and "plays it
    safe" by yielding to everyone. The same person who waits at a four way stop til everyone is gone
    ... Frustrating when one is grooving through city streets and suddenly the general flow is
    stopped. Bernie
     
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