A lesson from Pete (first aid)

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Mtb Lover, Nov 17, 2003.

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  1. "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    long list snipped... and why not a bob trailer?

    being slightly old school and ever so slightly tongue in cheek, give me an example of an accident
    where adequate first aid could not be performed simply with what you are wearing??
     


  2. Jon Bond

    Jon Bond Guest

    "John Atkinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > long list snipped... and why not a bob trailer?
    >
    > being slightly old school and ever so slightly tongue in cheek, give me an example of an accident
    > where adequate first aid could not be performed simply with what you are wearing??

    I personally wouldn't want to wrap my muddy, nasty jersey around my arm when its bleeding profusely.
    Not to mention the very high risk of shock with a severe injury, which can quickly lead to
    hypothermia (especially if you were sweating and its windy), so I'd like to keep my clothing on,
    thanks. Especially with the minimal clothing you wear biking. Not to mention getting adequate
    compression of a deep wound or one that knicks an artery (and yes, I've heard of it happening. Or,
    for example, when you get a stick jammed into your side so deep it punctures your lung - I know
    somebody first hand that it's happened to).

    There's no way you can keep a gash that's deep enough to spread closed with just a thin coolmax
    jersey. And then get out of there. Its just not going to happen. A roll of gauze is tiny;
    Steristrips are tiny, A roll of medical tape is useful for more than just first aid, and a
    self-sticking compressive bandage is small too. I wouldn't bring them racing, but I've used my kit
    more than a few times on the trail, or back at my car when I didn't feel the need to bring it with
    me. If you're not a weight weenie, and you're already using a camelbak, why not fill up the extra
    space with a few things that could save your hide?

    Jon Bond
     
  3. Jon Bond

    Jon Bond Guest

    "Zilla" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > On 18 Nov 2003 19:23:47 GMT, BB <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > >On 18 Nov 2003 09:04:48 -0800, JD wrote:
    > > >> MTB Lover <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > >>> I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice
    page
    > > >>> BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good
    idea
    > it
    > > >>> is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can only assume most of you
    > > >>> do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat, plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What
    > > >>> items have prove most useful for a space conscious rider?
    > > >>
    > > >> Skill.
    > > >
    > > >Or, lacking that, common sense. I've really had very few reasons to
    patch
    > > >myself (or my riding buds) up over the past several years.
    > >
    > > If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you from an accident, then we have
    > > different definitions of "accident."
    > >
    > > pete fagerlin
    > >
    > > ::Revolutionary! Evolutionary! Yet so retro! :www.yestubes.com
    >
    > How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more riding?
    >
    > --
    > - Zilla Cary, NC (Remove XSPAM)

    How bout my tube getting a slow leak near the top of a DH course, and then rolling halfway off the
    rim, sending me headfirst into the ground at just the right angle to keep my helmet from taking most
    of the impact? Or when I got caught up on an easy section because a rock moved a tiny bit, and even
    though I didn't crash, I ended up with a nice deep 2.5" gash on my leg from the chainring that I
    needed stitches for (and didn't get... heh, its my leg, I don't care if it scars). Or how about the
    3' wheelie drop when your freehub decides to not engage? Been there.....

    Shit happens. If you go out and push your limits, it happens more. Even if you don't, though, freak
    accidents can still get you.

    Lets take racecar drivers, for example. They drive, drive, and drive more... and then more still.
    Doesn't keep that random accident from happening - whether because they push it a little tiny bit
    too far, or because something just doesn't work right, or just because sometimes, it happens!

    Jon Bond
     
  4. Kathleen

    Kathleen Guest

    Zilla wrote:

    > "P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>On 18 Nov 2003 19:23:47 GMT, BB <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>On 18 Nov 2003 09:04:48 -0800, JD wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>MTB Lover <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > news:<[email protected]mpabay.rr.com>...
    >
    >>>>>I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page BTW. Looking at the
    >>>>>carnage update, it made me think what a good idea
    >
    > it
    >
    >>>>>is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can only assume most of you do
    >>>>>this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat, plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items
    >>>>>have prove most useful for a space conscious rider?
    >>>>
    >>>>Skill.
    >>>
    >>>Or, lacking that, common sense. I've really had very few reasons to patch myself (or my riding
    >>>buds) up over the past several years.
    >>
    >>If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you from an accident, then we have
    >>different definitions of "accident."
    >>
    >>pete fagerlin
    >>
    >>::Revolutionary! Evolutionary! Yet so retro! :www.yestubes.com
    >
    >
    > How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more riding?
    >

    So I guess you're not only immune to the vagaries of trail conditions, weather, wildlife and your
    own "rider errors", you're also invulnerable to other trail-users' screw-ups as well?

    Oooohkay.....

    Kathleen
     
  5. x

    x Guest

    RE/
    >being slightly old school and ever so slightly tongue in cheek, give me an example of an accident
    >where adequate first aid could not be performed simply with what you are wearing??

    Road rash infected with antibiotic-resistant staph.

    From what I've read so far, minutes count and an hour can cost you a limb if not your life.

    Couple years ago, a guy around here (SouthEast Penna, USA) took a spill. Can't recall whether he
    died or just lost a leg...but I do recall he got medical attention in a timeframe that seemed
    reasonably prompt to me as I read the story in a local newspaper.
    --
    PeteCresswell
     
  6. Zilla

    Zilla Guest

    "P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:37:32 -0500, "Zilla" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you
    > from
    > >> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
    >
    > >How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more
    > riding?
    >
    > Key word:
    >
    > "accident"

    Here's a close analogy...

    It's deer season here in NC and I ride some backwoods on my way to work. The other day, a deer
    suddenly crossed my path and I could have easily hit
    it.Since I've been driving for over 20+ yrs now, I've developed some instincts to avoid road
    hazards, so I was able to slow down enough and swerve around it.

    I avoided an "accident" (key word) through "discerned instinct" because of driving, driving,
    driving, and more driving.

    --
    - Zilla Cary, NC (Remove XSPAM)
     
  7. On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:28:15 -0500, "Zilla" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:37:32 -0500, "Zilla" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> >> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save
    you
    >> from
    >> >> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
    >>
    >> >How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more
    >> riding?
    >>
    >> Key word:
    >>
    >> "accident"
    >
    >Here's a close analogy...
    >
    >It's deer season here in NC and I ride some backwoods on my way to
    work.
    >The other day, a deer suddenly crossed my path and I could have
    easily hit
    >it.Since I've been driving for over 20+ yrs now, I've developed some
    instincts
    >to avoid road hazards, so I was able to slow down enough and swerve
    around it.
    >
    >I avoided an "accident" (key word) through "discerned instinct"
    because of
    >driving, driving, driving, and more driving.

    So do you think that due to your wonderful driving ability you can avoid all deer now?

    Keyword:

    "accident"
     
  8. Zilla

    Zilla Guest

    "P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:28:15 -0500, "Zilla" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]...
    > >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:37:32 -0500, "Zilla" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save
    > you
    > >> from
    > >> >> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
    > >>
    > >> >How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more
    > >> riding?
    > >>
    > >> Key word:
    > >>
    > >> "accident"
    > >
    > >Here's a close analogy...
    > >
    > >It's deer season here in NC and I ride some backwoods on my way to
    > work.
    > >The other day, a deer suddenly crossed my path and I could have
    > easily hit
    > >it.Since I've been driving for over 20+ yrs now, I've developed some
    > instincts
    > >to avoid road hazards, so I was able to slow down enough and swerve
    > around it.
    > >
    > >I avoided an "accident" (key word) through "discerned instinct"
    > because of
    > >driving, driving, driving, and more driving.
    >
    > So do you think that due to your wonderful driving ability you can avoid all deer now?
    >
    > Keyword:
    >
    > "accident"
    >

    I don't have a "wonderful driving ability" as my wife would testify! :)

    So far I've avoided "all" deer, but I concur, I may not be so lucky, or instinctive, on the next
    one. My point is, I had better chances avoiding the "accident" being a 20-yr driver, vs. had I only
    been driving for 20 mins. all my life. Stopping and steering the car was instinctive.

    So far I'm still accident prone on a bike since I've only been riding for 2+ yrs. But I hope my
    "chances" of avoiding them increase as I get better. Not ALL, but some..

    --
    - Zilla Cary, NC (Remove XSPAM)
     
  9. "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "John Atkinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > >
    > > long list snipped... and why not a bob trailer?
    > >
    > > being slightly old school and ever so slightly tongue in cheek, give me an example of an
    > > accident where adequate first aid could not be performed simply with what you are wearing??
    >
    > I personally wouldn't want to wrap my muddy, nasty jersey around my arm when its bleeding
    > profusely. Not to mention the very high risk of shock with a severe injury, which can quickly lead
    > to hypothermia (especially if you were sweating and its windy), so I'd like to keep my clothing
    > on, thanks. Especially with the minimal clothing you wear biking. Not to mention getting adequate
    > compression of a deep wound or one that knicks an artery (and yes, I've heard of it happening. Or,
    > for example, when you get a stick jammed into your side so deep it punctures your lung - I know
    > somebody first hand that it's happened to).
    >
    > There's no way you can keep a gash that's deep enough to spread closed with just a thin coolmax
    > jersey. And then get out of there. Its just not going to happen. A roll of gauze is tiny;
    > Steristrips are tiny, A roll of medical tape is useful for more than just first aid, and a
    > self-sticking compressive bandage is small too. I wouldn't bring them racing, but I've used my kit
    > more than a few times on the trail, or back at my car when I didn't feel the need to bring it with
    > me. If you're not a weight weenie, and you're already using a camelbak, why not fill up the extra
    > space with a few things that could save your hide?
    >
    > Jon Bond

    OK, steristrips and tape are good news, your waterproof/windproof and a bit of tape will save your
    life with the sucking chest wound that is such a real possibility. Remember that where I ride you
    carry a fair bit of clothing.

    But I draw the line at the epi-pens and the drug cabinet unless you personally have a pre-existing
    medical condition, you might as well carry a defib, you are much more likely to save a life.

    There is a significant difference between first aid and medicine.

    I work on the assumption that I am fit and healthy, my rides are invariably of a half day to one day
    in length (and often shorter), they are not in complete wilderness areas and I have access to clean
    and sterile conditions after the ride.

    Most people's posts in this group would suggest that they are similar. Let's not confuse riding in
    wilderness or lesser developed countries (or as a group leader with responsibility for the group)
    with going for a spin on the bike. (My 'first aid kit' for these trips is definitely more of a
    medical bag.)

    And don't forget the cell-phone.

    A last teaser, in what first aid situations can you apply a pair of arm warmers...
     
  10. Penny S

    Penny S Guest

    John Atkinson murmured while asleep:
    >
    > OK, steristrips and tape are good news, your waterproof/windproof and a bit of tape will save your
    > life with the sucking chest wound that is such a real possibility. Remember that where I ride you
    > carry a fair bit of clothing.
    >
    > But I draw the line at the epi-pens and the drug cabinet unless you personally have a pre-existing
    > medical condition, you might as well carry a defib, you are much more likely to save a life.
    >
    > There is a significant difference between first aid and medicine.

    well I'd agree with that... but the farther you are out, the more stuff you need.
    >
    > I work on the assumption that I am fit and healthy, my rides are invariably of a half day to one
    > day in length (and often shorter), they are not in complete wilderness areas and I have access to
    > clean and sterile conditions after the ride.

    A lot of us do ride in "wilderness". ( remember the "mountain" in mountain biking?) It maybe
    hours before there's access to "clean and sterile" conditions. The kit my group carries on a
    typcial all day Idaho epic is going to be bigger than the kit I take on an in town local, and the
    wilderness emergency kit is always at the trailhead.... where I ride, the trail head may be
    several hours from EMS.

    >
    > Most people's posts in this group would suggest that they are similar. Let's not confuse riding in
    > wilderness or lesser developed countries (or as a group leader with responsibility for the group)
    > with going for a spin on the bike. (My 'first aid kit' for these trips is definitely more of a
    > medical bag.)
    >
    > And don't forget the cell-phone.

    Only if you know that it's going to work. IMO, it's lame to depend on a cell phone to get you out of
    trouble. There are lot of folks here, my self included who regulary head out into areas with no cell
    phone coverage. A cell phone is pretty lame insurance once you head out of a metro area. It also
    encourages not having to be responsible for one self.

    You've got some good points but you are being way too general.

    >
    > A last teaser, in what first aid situations can you apply a pair of arm warmers...

    to cover arm trail rash, hold gauze and tape in place, use an an emergency tourniquet ( extreme
    situation application), wipe up blood, emergency wound dressing....

    Penny S
     
  11. John Atkinson wrote:

    >
    > Most people's posts in this group would suggest that they are similar. Let's not confuse riding in
    > wilderness or lesser developed countries (or as a group leader with responsibility for the group)
    > with going for a spin on the bike. (My 'first aid kit' for these trips is definitely more of a
    > medical bag.)
    >
    > And don't forget the cell-phone.
    >
    > A last teaser, in what first aid situations can you apply a pair of arm warmers...

    Probably true in general, but not here in Western Colorado. Mostly wilderness rides, cell phones
    often don't work, other riders sometimes the exception. I will admit though, as things get
    technical in these situations, I am less inclined to "go for it". Same is true on more local rides
    when I am solo.

    --
    Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado (remove ".nospam" to reply)
     
  12. Jd

    Jd Guest

  13. [email protected] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > [email protected] (John Atkinson) wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>... <snip>
    > > And don't forget the cell-phone.
    >
    > Yeah Linus, don't forget your security blanket.
    >
    > JD

    Good Grief! JD I guess irony doesn't do well on usenet...

    Having just tried to junk everyone's gear I then think they should carry a bloody 'phone? Pah!

    Ptuuiii!!
     
  14. Penny S

    Penny S Guest

    John Atkinson murmured while asleep:
    > [email protected] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >> [email protected] (John Atkinson) wrote in message
    >> news:<[email protected]>... <snip>
    >>> And don't forget the cell-phone.
    >>
    >> Yeah Linus, don't forget your security blanket.
    >>
    >> JD
    >
    > Good Grief! JD I guess irony doesn't do well on usenet...
    >
    > Having just tried to junk everyone's gear I then think they should carry a bloody 'phone? Pah!
    >
    > Ptuuiii!!

    You have to put a smiley in there. A lot of folks really do think a cell phone is a good substitute
    for maps, experience, first aid skills, common sense. lack of planning, poor equipment etc.

    Penny
     
  15. "Penny S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > John Atkinson murmured while asleep:
    > > [email protected] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > >> [email protected] (John Atkinson) wrote in message
    > >> news:<[email protected]>... <snip>
    > >>> And don't forget the cell-phone.
    > >>
    > >> Yeah Linus, don't forget your security blanket.
    > >>
    > >> JD
    > >
    > > Good Grief! JD I guess irony doesn't do well on usenet...
    > >
    > > Having just tried to junk everyone's gear I then think they should carry a bloody 'phone? Pah!
    > >
    > > Ptuuiii!!
    >
    > You have to put a smiley in there. A lot of folks really do think a cell phone is a good
    > substitute for maps, experience, first aid skills, common sense. lack of planning, poor
    > equipment etc.
    >
    > Penny

    you're right. And a lot of folks jump into threads without 'listening' and without context in order
    to make their own little points and further their own agendas. Hmm, not sure that I should be
    surprised at that ;-)

    Still if they carry a cell phone, even without the items in your list they should keep 911
    controllers in business so we can look forward to more 'wit' from the resident hairy bum.
     
  16. Jd

    Jd Guest

    [email protected] (John Atkinson) referred to me as: <snip>
    > the resident hairy bum.

    How does it feel to be as clueless as spankie?

    JD
     
  17. [email protected] (JD) referred to me as:
    > <snip>
    as clueless as spankie?

    yawn...

    you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :)
     
  18. Sorni

    Sorni Guest

    "John Atkinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (JD) referred to me as:
    > > <snip> as clueless as spankie?
    >
    > yawn...

    > you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :)

    Dishonest quoting. You went first ("hairy bum"); JD then asked how it feels to be as clueless as
    spankie (different from CALLING you as clueless as spankie).

    Bill "pass the mashed potatoes" S.
     
  19. "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "John Atkinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > [email protected] (JD) referred to me as:
    > > > <snip> as clueless as spankie?
    > >
    > > yawn...
    >
    > > you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :)
    >
    > Dishonest quoting. You went first ("hairy bum"); JD then asked how it feels to be as clueless as
    > spankie (different from CALLING you as clueless as spankie).
    >
    > Bill "pass the mashed potatoes" S.

    I do hope we are not going to get 'serious' about this. I think the name calling began a little
    earlier but the 'singletrack' mind comment was an attempt to lighten it up, even flagged by a smiley
    for the hard of thinking.

    There is a clear implication in JD's post, I took it lightly rather than personally, who knows (bar
    the man himself) how it was intended. Its all gone a long way from the value and content of first
    aid kits hasn't it?

    I carried a first aid kit on a ride for the first time in ages last weekend - it was a race, I had
    to. So if a race organiser insists on 'first aid kits' being carried, as in most things to do with
    racing people will try and carry as little as possible.This is where I came into the thread really,
    what constitutes the minimum content for a first aid kit?
     
  20. "John Atkinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "John Atkinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > [email protected] (JD) referred to me as:
    > > > > <snip> as clueless as spankie?
    > > >
    > > > yawn...
    > >
    > > > you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :)
    > >
    > > Dishonest quoting. You went first ("hairy bum"); JD then asked how it
    feels
    > > to be as clueless as spankie (different from CALLING you as clueless as spankie).
    > >
    > > Bill "pass the mashed potatoes" S.
    >
    > I do hope we are not going to get 'serious' about this. I think the name calling began a little
    > earlier but the 'singletrack' mind comment was an attempt to lighten it up, even flagged by a
    > smiley for the hard of thinking.
    >
    > There is a clear implication in JD's post, I took it lightly rather than personally, who knows
    > (bar the man himself) how it was intended. Its all gone a long way from the value and content of
    > first aid kits hasn't it?
    >
    > I carried a first aid kit on a ride for the first time in ages last weekend - it was a race, I had
    > to. So if a race organiser insists on 'first aid kits' being carried, as in most things to do with
    > racing people will try and carry as little as possible.This is where I came into the thread
    > really, what constitutes the minimum content for a first aid kit?

    A safety pin.

    Steve.
     
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