Abt interview with Armstrong

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Robert Chung, Dec 13, 2003.

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  1. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, heather
    locklearson <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:201220032048177232%[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > That doesn't happen. It also isn't what I was addressing.
    > > >
    > > > I was addressing your contention that power output doesn't change from
    > year
    > > > to year. It may not in the lab, but it does on the road where recovery matters.
    > >
    > > Experience has shown that Lance's recovery is very good compared to the rest. The ability to
    > > recover from day to day isn't going to change much from year to year for a guy like Lance, and
    > > if his ability to recover does change (this year?) it will be evident during training.
    > >
    > > > Look at what happened to Indurain. Unstoppable one year, unable to make the lead group in the
    > > > mountains the next year.
    > >
    > > The power output of whoever was at the front in a given year doesn't change much compared to
    > > whoever was at the front the previous year, just the names of the guys at the front-which is
    > > what I said two posts ago.
    > >
    > > The evidence of this is the leaders' pace on certain climbs and during TT's from year to year.
    > > If you take out variables like the weather and how far in to the Tour the stage occurs-all of
    > > which are not too hard to account for in training objectives, the power needed to be at the
    > > front this year for x climb is not a lot different than it was last year or the year before, and
    > > Lance knows this, but you don't.
    > >
    > > Listen closely to what Lance's advisors say about his power during certain tests before and
    > > during the Tour. His success in the race is not a surprise to them because they already have a
    > > pretty good idea of how much power and for how long he needs to make that power in order to be
    > > successful during the critical stages. If his power output during his pre-race tests is lower,
    > > or hasn't improved from last year then they'll have something to worry about.
    >
    >
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > Look at the declines of both Indurain and Lemond. Sudden.

    But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and LeMond may have been sick.
    Besides, if a guy only loses 5% of his power he's no longer near the front. It's quite likely they
    each knew they'd lost some power before the Tour started. Lance would know.
    >
    > In 1996 Indurain won the Dauphine, convincingly. Then he couldn't do it in the Tour.

    A short race that doesn't include all the contenders isn't a perfect test and the desired peak is
    still 4-6 weeks away.

    > Pre-Tour power tests don't mean shit.

    Yeah sure. You're the expert. I'm suprised Lance hasn't called you for advice since you think you
    know more than he and his advisors.

    -WG
     


  2. "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >
    > > Look at the declines of both Indurain and Lemond. Sudden.
    >
    > But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and...

    Indurain , b. 16 July 1964 (age 31-32)

    1. Bjarne Riis, b. 3 April 1964 (32)
    2. Jan Ullrich
    3. Richard Virenque
    4. Laurent Dufaux
    5. Peter Luttenberger
    6. Luc Leblanc, b. 4 August 1966 (29)
    7. Piotre Ugrumov, b. 21 January 1961 (35)
    8. Fernando Escartin, b. 24 January 1968 (28)
    9. Abraham Olano
    10. Tony Rominger, 27 March 1961 (35)

    11. Miguel Indurain
     
  3. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Carl Sundquist
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > >
    > > > Look at the declines of both Indurain and Lemond. Sudden.
    > >
    > > But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and...
    >
    >
    > Indurain , b. 16 July 1964 (age 31-32)
    >
    > 1. Bjarne Riis, b. 3 April 1964 (32)
    EPO.
    > 2. Jan Ullrich
    > 3. Richard Virenque
    > 4. Laurent Dufaux
    > 5. Peter Luttenberger
    > 6. Luc Leblanc, b. 4 August 1966 (29)
    New guys getting better.

    > 7. Piotre Ugrumov, b. 21 January 1961 (35)
    > 8. Fernando Escartin, b. 24 January 1968 (28)
    > 9. Abraham Olano

    > 10. Tony Rominger, 27 March 1961 (35)
    EPO.

    > 11. Miguel Indurain
    Couldn't climb with the best guys. After 5 wins, no longer motivated.

    -WG
     
  4. "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:221220032158211209%[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Carl Sundquist <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > >
    > > > > Look at the declines of both Indurain and Lemond. Sudden.
    > > >
    > > > But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and...
    > >
    > >
    > > Indurain , b. 16 July 1964 (age 31-32)
    > >
    > > 1. Bjarne Riis, b. 3 April 1964 (32)
    > EPO.
    > > 2. Jan Ullrich
    > > 3. Richard Virenque
    > > 4. Laurent Dufaux
    > > 5. Peter Luttenberger
    > > 6. Luc Leblanc, b. 4 August 1966 (29)
    > New guys getting better.
    >
    >
    > > 7. Piotre Ugrumov, b. 21 January 1961 (35)
    > > 8. Fernando Escartin, b. 24 January 1968 (28)
    > > 9. Abraham Olano
    >
    > > 10. Tony Rominger, 27 March 1961 (35)
    > EPO.
    >
    > > 11. Miguel Indurain
    > Couldn't climb with the best guys. After 5 wins, no longer motivated.

    Dumbass.

    Ya he could. Won the Dauphine in 1996 going away.

    1996 TdF. The big stage of that race finished in Miguel Indurain's hometown. He was motiivated. All
    Indurain had to do to cap his career was win that race then retire. He couldn't do it. Day to day
    recovery took a nosedive. His dominance in the Dauphine a few weeks before proved that he still had
    the power. He just didn't have the recovery.

    Since you've never done a stage race, it's not surprising that you wouldn't realize how big a deal
    recovery is.
     
  5. "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > >
    > > > > Look at the declines of both Indurain and Lemond. Sudden.
    > > >
    > > > But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and...
    > >
    > > Indurain , b. 16 July 1964 (age 31-32)
    > >
    > > 1. Bjarne Riis, b. 3 April 1964 (32)
    > EPO.

    > > 2. Jan Ullrich

    New guy getting better

    > > 3. Richard Virenque

    Doper, never did any better in TdF

    > > 4. Laurent Dufaux
    > > 5. Peter Luttenberger
    > > 6. Luc Leblanc, b. 4 August 1966 (29)
    > New guys getting better.

    New guy? At 29? He had already been world champion (1994) and had been riding the TdF since at
    least 1990.
    >
    >
    > > 7. Piotre Ugrumov, b. 21 January 1961 (35)
    > > 8. Fernando Escartin, b. 24 January 1968 (28)
    > > 9. Abraham Olano
    >
    > > 10. Tony Rominger, 27 March 1961 (35)
    > EPO.

    If Rominger took EPO (and since his doctor was Ferrari, the same one who advises LANCE, that is a
    possible assumption), then why did he come to train for several summers in Vail, CO before the TdF?

    >
    > > 11. Miguel Indurain
    > Couldn't climb with the best guys. After 5 wins, no longer motivated.
    >
    > -WG
     
  6. "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > >
    > > > > Look at the declines of both Indurain and Lemond. Sudden.
    > > >
    > > > But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and...
    > >
    > >
    > > Indurain , b. 16 July 1964 (age 31-32)
    > >
    > > 1. Bjarne Riis, b. 3 April 1964 (32)
    > EPO.

    What is there to make us believe that the 1996 TdF was the first time Riis EPO'd or EPO'd to
    that extent?
     
  7. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    Carl Sundquist wrote:
    > If Rominger took EPO (and since his doctor was Ferrari, the same one who advises LANCE, that is
    > a possible assumption), then why did he come to train for several summers in Vail, CO before
    > the TdF?

    Obvious. He was trying to throw off suspicion.
     
  8. Lindsay

    Lindsay Guest

    On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:46:43 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Dumbass -
    >
    >Look at the declines of both Indurain and Lemond. Sudden.
    >
    >In 1996 Indurain won the Dauphine, convincingly. Then he couldn't do it in the Tour.
    >
    >Pre-Tour power tests don't mean shit. No one can simulate the TdF in training.
    >

    Apples and another brand of apples. Lance and his team of technicians have made huge advancements in
    developing, measuring and testing his various fitness levels. LANCE is a borg compared to those two.

    Although no one can simulate the TdF in training, or even in early season races, LANCE and his team
    will know better than Miguel and Greg did when the end is near. Bruyneel will still try to build a
    team that will drag LANCE's ass through the tour for a win any way.
     
  9. Carl Sundquist wrote:
    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    >>>Look at the declines of both Indurain and Lemond. Sudden.
    >>
    >>But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and...
    >
    >
    >
    > Indurain , b. 16 July 1964 (age 31-32)
    >
    > 1. Bjarne Riis, b. 3 April 1964 (32)

    Asterisk.

    > 2. Jan Ullrich

    > 3. Richard Virenque

    Asterisk.

    > 4. Laurent Dufaux

    Asterisk.

    > 5. Peter Luttenberger
    > 6. Luc Leblanc, b. 4 August 1966 (29)
    > 7. Piotre Ugrumov, b. 21 January 1961 (35)

    Asterisk.

    > 8. Fernando Escartin, b. 24 January 1968 (28)
    > 9. Abraham Olano
    > 10. Tony Rominger, 27 March 1961 (35)
    >
    > 11. Miguel Indurain
     
  10. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Carl Sundquist
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > > > 10. Tony Rominger, 27 March 1961 (35)
    > > EPO.
    >
    > If Rominger took EPO (and since his doctor was Ferrari, the same one who advises LANCE, that is
    > a possible assumption), then why did he come to train for several summers in Vail, CO before
    > the TdF?

    I'm not sure why, but EPO and altitude could have some different benefits, and/or Rominger wanted to
    come to America to train like some others have done in the past.

    -WG
     
  11. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Carl Sundquist
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Look at the declines of both Indurain and Lemond. Sudden.
    > > > >
    > > > > But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and...
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Indurain , b. 16 July 1964 (age 31-32)
    > > >
    > > > 1. Bjarne Riis, b. 3 April 1964 (32)
    > > EPO.
    >
    > What is there to make us believe that the 1996 TdF was the first time Riis EPO'd or EPO'd to
    > that extent?

    Why does this matter? From the beginning Ferrari and others knew EPO was not 100% safe, so perhaps
    you only take the risks when it really matters.

    -WG
     
  12. warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news
    > > > > >
    > > > > > But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and...
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Indurain , b. 16 July 1964 (age 31-32)
    > > > >
    > > > > 1. Bjarne Riis, b. 3 April 1964 (32)
    > > > EPO.
    > >
    > > What is there to make us believe that the 1996 TdF was the first time Riis EPO'd or EPO'd to
    > > that extent?
    >
    > Why does this matter? From the beginning Ferrari and others knew EPO was not 100% safe, so perhaps
    > you only take the risks when it really matters.
    >

    In the context of "they were aging, new guys getting better", Riis would fall under the aging, not
    new category; if you are attributing his success to EPO, I'm saying that unless '96 was the first
    time Riis doped or unless he significantly increased his dosage/'crit in '96, what do you attribute
    his 'victory' (betterness) to? And with the vampires not yet in existence plus being under the
    purview of Ferrari and his philosophy on EPO, why should we think '96 would be any different than
    '95 or '94? Do you think the previous editions of the Tour mattered any less to Riis than '96?
     
  13. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Carl
    Sundquist <[email protected]> wrote:

    > warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and...
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Indurain , b. 16 July 1964 (age 31-32)
    > > > > >
    > > > > > 1. Bjarne Riis, b. 3 April 1964 (32)
    > > > > EPO.
    > > >
    > > > What is there to make us believe that the 1996 TdF was the first time Riis EPO'd or EPO'd to
    > > > that extent?
    > >
    > > Why does this matter? From the beginning Ferrari and others knew EPO was not 100% safe, so
    > > perhaps you only take the risks when it really matters.
    > >
    >
    > In the context of "they were aging, new guys getting better", Riis would fall under the aging, not
    > new category; if you are attributing his success to EPO, I'm saying that unless '96 was the first
    > time Riis doped or unless he significantly increased his dosage/'crit in '96, what do you
    > attribute his 'victory' (betterness) to?

    Yes, some of Ferrari's guys were using EPO long before '96 but that doesn't mean that Riis was using
    it earlier. It was the riders' choice, even though Ferrari was/is sympathetic to the reasons the
    riders would give for using EPO and he facilitated its use.

    "New guys getting better" doesn't necessarily mean young guys. It's more that there are
    new/different guys getting better via experience and tactics, better training, drugs, increased
    focus on the Tour, etc.. It's also in contrast to the "aging" guys who have done the work and
    sacrifice to be at the top for awhile and now they're getting tired and/or less motivated, like
    Indurain. If a guy who's been at the top for several years like LeMond or Indurain finds that they
    can't win the race anymore it doesn't surprise me that they just fold the tents and cruise to a
    relatively easy 10th place or withdraw from the race with a "sickness" even though their power may
    have only declined a small amount (but still enough to keep them off the top step of the podium).

    -WG
     
  14. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Carl
    Sundquist <[email protected]> wrote:

    > warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > But not unexpected. They were aging, new guys getting better, and...
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Indurain , b. 16 July 1964 (age 31-32)
    > > > > >
    > > > > > 1. Bjarne Riis, b. 3 April 1964 (32)
    > > > > EPO.
    > > >
    > > > What is there to make us believe that the 1996 TdF was the first time Riis EPO'd or EPO'd to
    > > > that extent?
    > >
    > > Why does this matter? From the beginning Ferrari and others knew EPO was not 100% safe, so
    > > perhaps you only take the risks when it really matters.
    > >
    >
    > In the context of "they were aging, new guys getting better", Riis would fall under the aging, not
    > new category; if you are attributing his success to EPO, I'm saying that unless '96 was the first
    > time Riis doped or unless he significantly increased his dosage/'crit in '96, what do you
    > attribute his 'victory' (betterness) to?

    Yes, some of Ferrari's guys were using EPO long before '96 but that doesn't mean that Riis was using
    it earlier. It was the riders' choice, even though Ferrari was/is sympathetic to the reasons the
    riders would give for using EPO and he facilitated its use.

    "New guys getting better" doesn't necessarily mean young guys. It's more that there are
    new/different guys getting better via experience and tactics, better training, drugs, increased
    focus on the Tour, etc.. It's also in contrast to the "aging" guys who have done the work and
    sacrifice to be at the top for awhile and now they're getting tired and/or less motivated, like
    Indurain. If a guy who's been at the top for several years like LeMond or Indurain finds that they
    can't win the race anymore it doesn't surprise me that they just fold the tents and cruise to a
    relatively easy 10th place or withdraw from the race with a "sickness" even though their power may
    have only declined a small amount (but still enough to keep them off the top step of the podium).

    -WG
     
  15. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (Carl Sundquist) wrote:

    > In the context of "they were aging, new guys getting better", Riis would fall under the aging, not
    > new category; if you are attributing his success to EPO, I'm saying that unless '96 was the first
    > time Riis doped or unless he significantly increased his dosage/'crit in '96, what do you
    > attribute his 'victory' (betterness) to? And with the vampires not yet in existence plus being
    > under the purview of Ferrari and his philosophy on EPO, why should we think '96 would be any
    > different than '95 or '94? Do you think the previous editions of the Tour mattered any less to
    > Riis than '96?

    I thought of Riis as a high level domestique until about the '95 season. I remember he was a very
    loyal worker, too, as in when his team leader was suffering and -not- winning the race, he would
    stick with the guy, even if he might have had a chance to do ok himself. '95 was the first year
    Riis was able to convince the Gewiss team management to take a chance at him being a protected
    rider (though not at the Tour - that was Berzin's gig). That carried over when he moved to
    Telekom. The Gewiss team in '94-'95 had some big successes and, while I don't recall them with
    any positive dope test results during that period, I do recall some talk of suspicions. Remember
    Fleche' Wallone ('94), with the three Gewiss guys on the podium (Argentin, Berzin and Furlan)?
    Ugrumov and Gotti were also part of the squad those years. Just so you know (and to put what I
    said above into perspective), I'm an "innocent until proven guilty" guy when it comes to dope -
    there are certainly times when I've seen results that gave pause for thought. But I try not to
    assume too often about this issue.

    --
    tanx, Howard

    "Girls won't touch me 'cuz I got a misdirection..."
    Pere Ubu

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
  16. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <231220031849362665%[email protected]>,
    warren <[email protected]> wrote:

    >If a guy who's been at the top for several years like LeMond or Indurain finds that they can't win
    >the race anymore it doesn't surprise me that they just fold the tents and cruise to a relatively
    >easy 10th place or withdraw from the race with a "sickness" even though their power may have only
    >declined a small amount (but still enough to keep them off the top step of the podium).

    Maybe I'm misinterpreting you here, Warren, but I thought Indurain was as motivated to win that
    year as he ever had been. At least until he got thrashed on the way through the mountains into
    Spain (stage 17) - then it really did look like (as you so aptly decribed it) he folded the
    tents. Of course, he was many minutes down at that point. From then on, he seemed to have no
    interest in the race, and only sort of held on to the position he was in at the end of that
    stage. He had been steadily losing time (about
    7:30 or so through the 16 previous stages) throughout the race, but stage 17 was devastating: an
    8:30 loss.

    --
    tanx, Howard

    "Girls won't touch me 'cuz I got a misdirection..."
    Pere Ubu

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
  17. "Howard Kveck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Carl
    > Sundquist) wrote:
    >
    > > In the context of "they were aging, new guys getting better", Riis would fall under the aging,
    > > not new category; if you are attributing his success to EPO, I'm saying that unless '96 was the
    > > first time Riis doped or unless he significantly increased his dosage/'crit in '96, what do you
    > > attribute his 'victory' (betterness) to? And with the vampires not yet in existence plus being
    > > under the purview of Ferrari and his philosophy on EPO, why should we think '96 would be any
    > > different than '95 or '94? Do you think the previous editions of the Tour mattered any less to
    > > Riis than '96?
    >
    > I thought of Riis as a high level domestique until about the '95 season. I remember he was a
    > very loyal worker, too, as in when his team leader was suffering and -not- winning the race, he
    > would stick with the guy, even if he might have had a chance to do ok himself. '95 was the
    > first year Riis was able to convince the Gewiss team management to take a chance at him being a
    > protected rider (though not at the Tour - that was Berzin's gig). That carried over when he
    > moved to Telekom. The Gewiss team in '94-'95 had some big successes and, while I don't recall
    > them with any positive dope test results during that period, I do recall some talk of
    > suspicions. Remember Fleche' Wallone ('94), with the three Gewiss guys on the podium (Argentin,
    > Berzin and Furlan)? Ugrumov and Gotti were also part of the squad those years. Just so you know
    > (and to put what I said above into perspective), I'm an "innocent until proven guilty" guy when
    > it comes to dope - there are certainly times when I've seen results that gave pause for
    > thought. But I try not to assume too often about this issue.
    >

    However, it was Warren who (in this thread) associated Riis with EPO. As above "if you are
    attributing his success to EPO," I pointed out that if he did it in '96, why not before then also
    which would make his change in performance less significant.

    I referred to Virenque as a doper because he has admitted it.
     
  18. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Carl Sundquist
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Howard Kveck" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:YOURhoward-
    > [email protected]
    > > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Carl
    > > Sundquist) wrote:
    > >
    > > > In the context of "they were aging, new guys getting better", Riis would fall under the aging,
    > > > not new category; if you are attributing his success to EPO, I'm saying that unless '96 was
    > > > the first time Riis doped or unless he significantly increased his dosage/'crit in '96, what
    > > > do you attribute his 'victory' (betterness) to? And with the vampires not yet in existence
    > > > plus being under the purview of Ferrari and his philosophy on EPO, why should we think '96
    > > > would be any different than '95 or '94? Do you think the previous editions of the Tour
    > > > mattered any less to Riis than '96?
    > >
    > > I thought of Riis as a high level domestique until about the '95 season. I remember he was a
    > > very loyal worker, too, as in when his team leader was suffering and -not- winning the race,
    > > he would stick with the guy, even if he might have had a chance to do ok himself. '95 was the
    > > first year Riis was able to convince the Gewiss team management to take a chance at him being
    > > a protected rider (though not at the Tour - that was Berzin's gig). That carried over when he
    > > moved to Telekom. The Gewiss team in '94-'95 had some big successes and, while I don't recall
    > > them with any positive dope test results during that period, I do recall some talk of
    > > suspicions. Remember Fleche' Wallone ('94), with the three Gewiss guys on the podium
    > > (Argentin, Berzin and Furlan)? Ugrumov and Gotti were also part of the squad those years.
    > > Just so you know (and to put what I said above into perspective), I'm an "innocent until
    > > proven guilty" guy when it comes to dope - there are certainly times when I've seen results
    > > that gave pause for thought. But I try not to assume too often about this issue.
    > >
    >
    > However, it was Warren who (in this thread) associated Riis with EPO.

    Howard has pinpointed the event where Gewiss's EPO use was first divulged by Ferrari.

    -WG
     
  19. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > However, it was Warren who (in this thread) associated Riis with EPO. As above "if you are
    > attributing his success to EPO," I pointed out that if he did it in '96, why not before then also
    > which would make his change in performance less significant.

    That's exactly what I was thinking when I started typing (cough, shuffle) and before I started
    blathering about Gewiss. Let me try again here (heh...). I think Riis was a strong rider during
    the years leading up to his TdF win, though his results didn't always show it. The reason for
    this was he was very good at doing the job he was assigned: strong domestique. Anyway, look at
    his results in the Tour over the years: fifth in '93 for Ceramiche Ariostea, 14th in '94 and
    third in '95 for Gewiss. That progression doesn't seem all that implausible, or to have
    significant leaps (the drop to 14th is, imo, explained by the domestique duties for Berzin that
    year). Source on results: http://www.trap-friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

    > I referred to Virenque as a doper because he has admitted it.

    Too bad it took the guy so long to admit it. After all the tearful bulshit he spewed about it, he
    gets up in court and finally says, "Well, maybe just a little..." And blubs. Again. I never could
    stand him.

    --
    tanx, Howard

    "Girls won't touch me 'cuz I got a misdirection..."
    Pere Ubu

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
  20. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <231220032157374946%[email protected]>,
    warren <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, Carl Sundquist <[email protected]> wrote:

    > > However, it was Warren who (in this thread) associated Riis with EPO.
    >
    > Howard has pinpointed the event where Gewiss's EPO use was first divulged by Ferrari.

    Did he actually divulge that info? I really don't recall that happening (note that I'm not saying
    it didn't - I simply don't remember it).

    --
    tanx, Howard

    "Girls won't touch me 'cuz I got a misdirection..."
    Pere Ubu

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
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