Abt on French anti-Americanism during TdF

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Robert Chung, Jul 1, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    Tags:


  2. Robert Chung wrote:

    > http://www.iht.com/articles/101348.html
    >
    > (also appears in NYTimes, which requires registration).

    Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in France."
    This seems highly unlikely to me. However, my first cycling trip to France (1980) I was prepared
    for all kinds of nastiness--and experienced almost none. I was perhaps lucky, but in any case I
    was treated with much kindness. I have some concern that there could be a self-fullfilling
    prophecy here if there is a lot of drum-beating before the fact.

    Steve

    --
    Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com
     
  3. In article <[email protected]>, Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in France."
    > This seems highly unlikely to me.

    I find it really amusing that Americans always seem to believe that the widespread anti-french
    behavior we have witnessed in the USA over the last 6 months (news, politicians, comedians) *has* to
    be matched over the pond by equally vile expressions of anti-American feelings. Check newspapers'
    websites. You will find plenty against Bush and his government, but I doubt if you will find
    anything that paints american people as a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards (or whatever you think
    would match the portrayal of the french people as cowardly weasels).

    jyh.

    --
    =====================================================================
    jean-yves herve' /\ Department of Computer Science \/ e-mail --> [email protected] and Statistics /\
    University of Rhode Island \/ Tel. --> (401) 874-4400 Kingston, RI 02881-0816 /\ Fax. --> (401)
    874-4617 USA \/
    =====================================================================
     
  4. "jean-yves herve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in
    > > France." This seems highly unlikely to me.
    >
    > I find it really amusing that Americans always seem to believe that the widespread anti-french
    > behavior we have witnessed in the USA over the last 6 months (news, politicians, comedians) *has*
    > to be matched over the pond by equally vile expressions of anti-American feelings. Check
    > newspapers' websites. You will find plenty against Bush and his government, but I doubt if you
    > will find anything that paints american people as a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards (or whatever
    > you think would match the portrayal of the french people as cowardly weasels).

    The media/public opinion split works in both directions. You'd do well to differentiate between the
    view of Americans you get from the media and what you see from interacting with the general public
    here in the States. On this, as with most issues, the two are seldom one and the same.

    SB
     
  5. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

  6. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Robert Chung wrote:
    > > http://www.iht.com/articles/101348.html
    > >
    > > (also appears in NYTimes, which requires registration).
    >
    > Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in France."
    > This seems highly unlikely to me.

    In my two weeks in France in 2000 The one thing that stood out for me after all this "rude French"
    stuff I'd heard, was that the average Frenchman was MORE polite and certainly more interesting than
    the average American.

    The only thing that seemed to get their goat was when they weren't fluent in English and you tried
    to speak pig-French to them.

    In small towns and in bars the Frenchmen were all watching soccer but they would switch it over to
    the Tour if you asked. Try that with a baseball group.

    The French and Americans are like brothers that disagree on most things - they may be nasty at times
    but they still have ties that bind.
     
  7. In article <[email protected]>, "Tom Kunich"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > The French and Americans are like brothers that disagree on most things - they may be nasty at
    > times but they still have ties that bind.

    or as Powells put it, the USA and France have been on marriage counseling for more than 200
    years. :)

    jyh.

    --
    =====================================================================
    jean-yves herve' /\ Department of Computer Science \/ e-mail --> [email protected] and Statistics /\
    University of Rhode Island \/ Tel. --> (401) 874-4400 Kingston, RI 02881-0816 /\ Fax. --> (401)
    874-4617 USA \/
    =====================================================================
     
  8. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

  9. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "jean-yves hervé" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, "Tom Kunich"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > The French and Americans are like brothers that disagree on most things - they may be nasty at
    > > times but they still have ties that bind.
    >
    > or as Powells put it, the USA and France have been on marriage counseling for more than 200
    > years. :)
    >
    > jyh.

    I'll predict that the French will lead the way in finding a solution that allows Bushman, Blair and
    friends to get their sorry troops' asses out of the Iraqi quagmire. And they'll do it with a
    wonderful smile across the table at the Security Counsel.
     
  10. On 7/1/03 12:11 PM, in article [email protected], "jean-yves herve"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in
    >> France." This seems highly unlikely to me.
    >
    > I find it really amusing that Americans always seem to believe that the widespread anti-french
    > behavior we have witnessed in the USA over the last 6 months (news, politicians, comedians) *has*
    > to be matched over the pond by equally vile expressions of anti-American feelings. Check
    > newspapers' websites. You will find plenty against Bush and his government, but I doubt if you
    > will find anything that paints american people as a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards (or whatever
    > you think would match the portrayal of the french people as cowardly weasels).

    Problem is that Americans ARE a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards. We may be the most powerful nation
    in the world, but we also have the cockiness and inferiority complex that comes with youth. In the
    grand scheme of things, the United States is still a very young country, with no true sense of
    national culture.

    We claim to be a melting pot, but insist that everyone speak English, and either make fun of those
    who do not assimilate, or force them to do so.

    Essentially, we are the Borg.
     
  11. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

    Where in France? It has always been said that the Parisians and other urban French people are
    responsible for the well known stereotypes. You don't have to travel far from Paris to find a
    completely different attitude. Even in areas with a lot of tourism you can find very kind and
    patient people. It should also be noted that Parisians are noted for their rudeness to anyone that
    is vistiting Paris, regardless of where they came from. Even visitors from other parts of France
    complain about this. It is also possible that the reputation of the Parisians has suffered because
    of the kindness of the people in the surrounding countries, even in the large cities. If you travel
    to Milano, then Madrid and finally Paris, you will likely experience the worst treatment during your
    last stop. It is really all about expectations. As I said, if you run in to this poor behavior after
    the kindness you experience elsewhere you will be disappointed. If you travel to France after
    hearing about their poor reputation, you will likely be pleasantly surprised that it is not as bad
    as people usually state.

    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:eek:[email protected]...
    > "Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Robert Chung wrote:
    > > > http://www.iht.com/articles/101348.html
    > > >
    > > > (also appears in NYTimes, which requires registration).
    > >
    > > Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in
    > > France." This seems highly unlikely to me.
    >
    > In my two weeks in France in 2000 The one thing that stood out for me after all this "rude French"
    > stuff I'd heard, was that the average Frenchman was MORE polite and certainly more interesting
    > than the average American.
    >
    > The only thing that seemed to get their goat was when they weren't fluent in English and you tried
    > to speak pig-French to them.
    >
    > In small towns and in bars the Frenchmen were all watching soccer but they would switch it over to
    > the Tour if you asked. Try that with a baseball group.
    >
    > The French and Americans are like brothers that disagree on most things - they may be nasty at
    > times but they still have ties that bind.
     
  12. Mark Janeba

    Mark Janeba Guest

    Steven L. Sheffield wrote:

    > Problem is that Americans ARE a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards. We may be the most powerful nation
    > in the world, but we also have the cockiness and inferiority complex that comes with youth. In the
    > grand scheme of things, the United States is still a very young country, with no true sense of
    > national culture.
    >
    > We claim to be a melting pot, but insist that everyone speak English, and either make fun of those
    > who do not assimilate, or force them to do so.
    >
    > Essentially, we are the Borg.

    GWB *does* seem to be saying "Resistance is futile" a lot lately.

    Mark Janeba (adjust address to reply)
     
  13. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "Mark Janeba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > GWB *does* seem to be saying "Resistance is futile" a lot lately.
    >
    > Mark Janeba (adjust address to reply)

    And some folks with RPG launchers don't seem to be getting his message........or at least not
    believing it.
     
  14. Robert Chung wrote:
    > "Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>
    >>Robert Chung wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>http://www.iht.com/articles/101348.html
    >>>
    >>>(also appears in NYTimes, which requires registration).
    >>
    >> Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in France."
    >> This seems highly unlikely to me.
    >
    >
    > Why would you think so?

    My experience is that people are people. There are saints and sinners here; I find it
    unlikely that it is not the case in France. I think Steve Blankenship makes a good point
    that there is no reason to believe the French get any better idea of the general regard
    in which they are held by Americans through the French press than Americans get about
    the regard in which they are held by the French through the American press. (Did I say
    that right?)

    Steve
     
  15. jean-yves herve wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in France."
    >> This seems highly unlikely to me.
    >
    >
    > I find it really amusing that Americans always seem to believe that the widespread anti-french
    > behavior we have witnessed in the USA over the last 6 months (news, politicians, comedians) *has*
    > to be matched over the pond by equally vile expressions of anti-American feelings. Check
    > newspapers' websites. You will find plenty against Bush and his government, but I doubt if you
    > will find anything that paints american people as a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards (or whatever
    > you think would match the portrayal of the french people as cowardly weasels).
    >
    > jyh.

    I don't think your characterization is accurate at all. I wouldn't judge all of us by the
    actions of the U.S. Congress.

    Steve
     
  16. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Where in France? It has always been said that the Parisians and
    other urban
    > French people are responsible for the well known stereotypes. You
    don't have
    > to travel far from Paris to find a completely different attitude.

    I spent a week in and around Dijon and another week in Paris. No matter what you heard, the only
    difference appeared to be that the Parisians were a little less patient with you when you needed
    something and they couldn't speak English. Their reactions were a whole lot less nasty than a New
    Yorker is every day to a fellow from Nebraska.

    In fact, I was alone for a day in Paris and wanted to buy lunch and the young waitress in the cafe'
    couldn't make heads or tails out of me and a couple of French laborers seated at the next table took
    over and ordered me a great lunch. Including a great beer.

    I can live with that. :)
     
  17. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    "Steven Bornfeld" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Robert Chung wrote:
    > > Steven Bornfeld wrote
    > >
    > >> Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in
    > >> France." This seems highly unlikely to me.
    > >
    > > Why would you think so?
    >
    > My experience is that people are people. There are saints and sinners here; I find it unlikely
    > that it is not the case in France. I think Steve Blankenship makes a good point that there is no
    > reason to believe the French get any better idea of the general regard in which they are held by
    > Americans through the French press than Americans get about the regard in which they are held by
    > the French through the American press. (Did I say that right?)
    >
    > Steve

    Even if you said it right, I think it not exactly to the point since it doesn't address Abt's claim
    that you thought so unlikely. My own experience and observation is that I hear a lot of
    anti-American policy sentiment but I've never had any personal anti-American sentiment directed my
    way, and I live in what is supposedly anti-America ground zero. Well, I did get screamed at by my
    neighborhood drunk, but he yells at everyone. French anti-Americanism appears to focus on the
    government, not on individuals (as long as your name isn't Bush or Rumsfeld or a handful of others).
    I have no doubt that Bart was right when he said he saw some event where the American flag (or the
    American anthem??) was booed, but when Serena was getting booed last month at the French Open I
    don't think it had to do with her being American.
     
  18. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > There is no need. The link he published works for anyone. I don't know why he mentioned the NYT as
    > an additional source. Perhaps so that the World knows he has a subscription?

    Nope. The NYT owns the IHT, and Abt's articles often (but not always) get published in both
    places--I mentioned the IHT/NYT thing so that people wouldn't think there were two different
    articles floating around. In any event, the NYT webpage requires registration (not a subscription)
    while the IHT's doesn't.
     
  19. Tom Kunich wrote:

    > "Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Robert Chung wrote:
    > > > http://www.iht.com/articles/101348.html
    > > >
    > > > (also appears in NYTimes, which requires registration).
    > >
    > > Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in
    > > France." This seems highly unlikely to me.
    >
    > In my two weeks in France in 2000 The one thing that stood out for me after all this "rude French"
    > stuff I'd heard, was that the average Frenchman was MORE polite and certainly more interesting
    > than the average American.
    >
    > The only thing that seemed to get their goat was when they weren't fluent in English and you tried
    > to speak pig-French to them.
    >
    > In small towns and in bars the Frenchmen were all watching soccer but they would switch it over to
    > the Tour if you asked. Try that with a baseball group.
    >
    > The French and Americans are like brothers that disagree on most things - they may be nasty at
    > times but they still have ties that bind.

    I agree with you fully.

    Steve

    --
    Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...