Abt on French anti-Americanism during TdF



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Robert Chung wrote:
>
> "Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > Robert Chung wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.iht.com/articles/101348.html
> > >
> > > (also appears in NYTimes, which requires registration).
> >
> > Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in
> > France." This seems highly unlikely to me.
>
> Why would you think so?

Why would you think not so?
 
"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BB27806C.23D0%[email protected]...
> Problem is that Americans ARE a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards. We may be the most powerful nation
> in the world, but we also have the cockiness and inferiority complex that comes with youth. In the
> grand scheme of things, the United States is still a very young country, with no true sense of
> national culture.
>

You need to make a distinction between the US Gov't and it's citizens. Most Americans would have
prefered that we not go to war. I don't see much "cockiness" since 9/11

> We claim to be a melting pot, but insist that everyone speak English, and either make fun of those
> who do not assimilate, or force them to do so.
>

Not even close. In the 2002 general election, California printed voter information pamphlets in
Spanish, Tagalog, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Korean (and possibly others - Russian ? ) Most
documents coming from the schools and local gov't are bilingual if not trilingual. It seems that we
go out of our way so that people from foreign nations do not need to assimilate

> Essentially, we are the Borg.
>

If it were only that easy. If I were to move to another country, I expect that I would need to be
able to speak the language in order to function in society. While many people who come to this
country do speak some English, there is a large population of new citizens who can't.

-T
 
Robert Chung wrote:

>
> Even if you said it right, I think it not exactly to the point since it doesn't address Abt's
> claim that you thought so unlikely. My own experience and observation is that I hear a lot of
> anti-American policy sentiment but I've never had any personal anti-American sentiment directed my
> way, and I live in what is supposedly anti-America ground zero. Well, I did get screamed at by my
> neighborhood drunk, but he yells at everyone. French anti-Americanism appears to focus on the
> government, not on individuals (as long as your name isn't Bush or Rumsfeld or a handful of
> others). I have no doubt that Bart was right when he said he saw some event where the American
> flag (or the American anthem??) was booed, but when Serena was getting booed last month at the
> French Open I don't think it had to do with her being American.

The subtext here that I find troubling (please tell me if you think I'm off-base) is that
anti-American feeling in France is exclusively political, while anti-French feeling in the U.S.
is largely not political, but ethnic, nationalist, and xenophobic. Of course, if you read my
first post, you will see that against expectations I was treated quite well in France; even my
vestigial French was tolerated, if with a bit of mutual frustration. I believe the majority of
people in the U.S. and France are very similar, with the virtues and flaws you might find in
any people. Certainly each country has its own history, its own skeletons in the closet.
Observing the migration of black artists and musicians in the first half of the 20th century to
Europe says much about the relative acceptance they found there as compared to at home. Just
last Wednesday the NY Times ran an article about an infantry company from Harlem that fought in
WWI in French uniforms and were fully accepted by the French. At the same time one could point
out the sorry history of French collaborationalism during the second world war. I might also
point out as you likely know that the TdF started to support and anti-Dreyfusard newspaper,
"L'Auto Velo" :

http://www.dailypeloton.com/spokesone.asp

While the U.S. has produced David Duke, France has produced Jean-Marie Le Pen and the National
Front. My point is that we can never acquiesce to bigotry whenever and wherever we find it. As a
Jew in Brooklyn, I have rarely (not never, but rarely) encountered overt anti-semitism here. I
certainly don't kid myself that it does not exist because I rarely experience it. I doubt that
either you, Robert, nor Mr. Abt should draw sweeping conclusions based upon your lack of
personal experience with bigotry.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com
 
Tom Kunich wrote:

> "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Where in France? It has always been said that the Parisians and
> other urban
> > French people are responsible for the well known stereotypes. You
> don't have
> > to travel far from Paris to find a completely different attitude.
>
> I spent a week in and around Dijon and another week in Paris. No matter what you heard, the only
> difference appeared to be that the Parisians were a little less patient with you when you needed
> something and they couldn't speak English. Their reactions were a whole lot less nasty than a New
> Yorker is every day to a fellow from Nebraska.

I don't agree with you here. Most polls show New Yorkers to be conspicuously helpful with out of
towners. It's other New Yorkers we can't stand.

Steve

>
>
> In fact, I was alone for a day in Paris and wanted to buy lunch and the young waitress in the
> cafe' couldn't make heads or tails out of me and a couple of French laborers seated at the next
> table took over and ordered me a great lunch. Including a great beer.
>
> I can live with that. :)

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com
 
Precious Pup wrote:

> Robert Chung wrote:
> >
> > "Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert Chung wrote:
> > >
> > > > http://www.iht.com/articles/101348.html
> > > >
> > > > (also appears in NYTimes, which requires registration).
> > >
> > > Abt claims that anti-Americanism "...seems nonexistent on a person-to-person level in
> > > France." This seems highly unlikely to me.
> >
> > Why would you think so?
>
> Why would you think not so?

Please see my replies to Robert.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com
 
Robert Chung wrote:
>

> My own experience and observation is that I hear a lot of anti-American policy sentiment but I've
> never had any personal anti-American sentiment directed my way, and I live in what is supposedly
> anti-America ground zero.

You're a nobody, not a sport superstar that is allegedly friends with a US president.
 
"Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Robert Chung wrote:
>
> >
> > Even if you said it right, I think it not exactly to the point since it doesn't address Abt's
> > claim that you thought so unlikely. My own
experience
> > and observation is that I hear a lot of anti-American policy sentiment
but
> > I've never had any personal anti-American sentiment directed my way, and
I
> > live in what is supposedly anti-America ground zero. Well, I did get screamed at by my
> > neighborhood drunk, but he yells at everyone. French anti-Americanism appears to focus on the
> > government, not on individuals
(as
> > long as your name isn't Bush or Rumsfeld or a handful of others). I have
no
> > doubt that Bart was right when he said he saw some event where the
American
> > flag (or the American anthem??) was booed, but when Serena was getting
booed
> > last month at the French Open I don't think it had to do with her being American.
>
> The subtext here that I find troubling (please tell me if you think
I'm
> off-base) is that anti-American feeling in France is exclusively
political,
> while anti-French feeling in the U.S. is largely not political, but
ethnic,
> nationalist, and xenophobic.

Actually, I think you're a little off-base. I think that anti-French feeling in the US is also
largely political, and transitory. My main point is that because Anti-French feeling in the US has
increased in the last year, the presumption is that anti-American sentiment in France has also
increased. I haven't seen that (except, of course, for Bush et al.). They treat us with *almost
exactly* the same amount of disdain as before.
 
"Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Robert Chung wrote:
>
> > My own experience and observation is that I hear a lot of anti-American policy sentiment
but
> > I've never had any personal anti-American sentiment directed my way, and
I
> > live in what is supposedly anti-America ground zero.
>
> You're a nobody, not a sport superstar that is allegedly friends with a US
president.

I'm definitely a nobody, but that sort of supports my point. Anti-Americanism here is not generally
directed against nobodies, it tends to be focused on specific symbols. I think this is what Abt
meant when he wrote that anti-Americanism seems non-existent at a person-to-person level.
 
Robert Chung wrote:

> "Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > Robert Chung wrote:
> >
>
> Actually, I think you're a little off-base. I think that anti-French feeling in the US is also
> largely political, and transitory. My main point is that because Anti-French feeling in the US has
> increased in the last year, the presumption is that anti-American sentiment in France has also
> increased.

Well, that wasn't my presumption. In any case, thanks for clearing up your thoughts on this.

Steve

> I haven't seen that (except, of course, for Bush et al.). They treat us with *almost exactly* the
> same amount of disdain as before.

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com
 
On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:55:26 -0400, Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS <[email protected]> wrote:
> As a Jew in Brooklyn, I have rarely (not never, but rarely) encountered overt anti-semitism
> here.

There are Jews in Brooklyn? Wow, I never noticed...

Thanks, Ronde Chimp
 
> I have no doubt that Bart was right when he said he saw some event where the American flag (or the
> American anthem??) was booed, but when Serena was getting booed last month at the French Open I
> don't think it had to do with her being American.

Nope, only her arrogance
 
Raptor wrote:
>
> David Ryan wrote:
> > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >>Not very many Iraqis will be up for war crimes charges.
> >>
> >>The ones who are resisting are in Shia dominated regions and they are the ones who will be
> >>losing out the most from the regime change.
> >>
> >>Put yourself in the shoes of a Baathist for a minute or two. Before the regime change, they had
> >>jobs, income, security, food on the table. Now, nothing. And since it was a socialist state,
> >>with prosperity depending upon contacts, etc., the idea of free enterprise may not even occur
> >>to them.
> >>
> >>Therefore they have lost everything (because of the invasion) and have nothing further to lose.
> >
> >
> > I think you mean Sunnis.
> >
> > And this is bigger than Iraq. Leaving is not an option for us and the Iraqis are going to
> > learn that.
>
> You mean it's not an option... yet.
>
> This war was a bad idea executed poorly by the political leadership. I hope it ends up better than
> Vietnam, but I don't see much reason for confidence.

Did we march into Hanoi in three weeks and tear down the statues of Ho Chi Minh? I think you
have no idea.

It will end well even if it turns out the entire Muslim world must be turned to glass anyway. We
will not tolerate terrorism in the United States. (At least most of us won't.) Had the Soviet Union
done what the whack jobs in the Middle East did, Leningrad at the very least would have been
coloring sunsets.

This is not Vietnam because I believe we have a Barry Goldwater instead of a Lyndon Johnson, or
somebody thinking only of his johnson, in office who, push come to shove, will push the button and
vaporize that cesspool.
 
"David Ryan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> It will end well even if it turns out the entire Muslim world must be turned to glass anyway. We
> will not tolerate terrorism in the United States. (At least most of us won't.) Had the Soviet
> Union done what the whack jobs in the Middle East did, Leningrad at the very least would have been
> coloring sunsets.
>
> This is not Vietnam because I believe we have a Barry Goldwater instead of a Lyndon Johnson, or
> somebody thinking only of his johnson, in office who, push come to shove, will push the button and
> vaporize that cesspool.

http://www.randynewman.com/sail_away.html#7
 
David Ryan wrote:

> This is not Vietnam because I believe we have a Barry Goldwater instead of a Lyndon Johnson, or
> somebody thinking only of his johnson, in office who, push come to shove, will push the button and
> vaporize that cesspool.

Your humanity is touching. Do you know how Barry Goldwater was discredited in the Presidential
campaign? As to your other characterisation, one other who might have thought more than a little
with his 'johnson' once said:

""What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana, enforced on the world by American weapons of
war, not merely peace for Americans, but peace for all men and women; not merely peace in our time,
but peace for all time. ... Is not peace, in the last analysis, basically a matter of human rights?
The right to live out our lives without fear of devastation, the right to breathe air as nature
provided it, the right of future generations to a healthy existence?" (President John F Kennedy,
10th June 1963)

That's not just YOUR rights he was talking about, he was thinking globally. Now contrast that level
of eloquence with "Bring 'em on".

He also mentioned something that you might like to bear in mind regarding nuclear war: that the
fruits of victory would be ashes in [your] mouths.

Thanks for coming, STF
 
Stewart Fleming wrote:
>
> David Ryan wrote:
>
> > This is not Vietnam because I believe we have a Barry Goldwater instead of a Lyndon Johnson, or
> > somebody thinking only of his johnson, in office who, push come to shove, will push the button
> > and vaporize that cesspool.
>
> Your humanity is touching.

This is not about humanity. This is about winning.
 
On 7/2/03 9:58 AM, in article [email protected], "Tom Schulenburg"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "Steven L. Sheffield" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:BB27806C.23D0%[email protected]...
>> Problem is that Americans ARE a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards. We may be the most powerful
>> nation in the world, but we also have the cockiness and inferiority complex that comes with
>> youth. In the grand scheme of things, the United States is still a very young country, with no
>> true sense of national culture.
>>
>
> You need to make a distinction between the US Gov't and it's citizens. Most Americans would have
> prefered that we not go to war. I don't see much "cockiness" since 9/11

You don't live in Utah.

>> We claim to be a melting pot, but insist that everyone speak English, and either make fun of
>> those who do not assimilate, or force them to do so.
>>
>
> Not even close. In the 2002 general election, California printed voter information pamphlets in
> Spanish, Tagalog, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Korean (and possibly others - Russian ? )
> Most documents coming from the schools and local gov't are bilingual if not trilingual. It seems
> that we go out of our way so that people from foreign nations do not need to assimilate

Thankfully, my home state (in which I unfortunately no longer reside) is not like the rest of
the nation ... Try getting California-style acceptance and diversity in Utah ... Or Tennessee
... Or Iowa.

>> Essentially, we are the Borg.
>>
>
> If it were only that easy. If I were to move to another country, I expect that I would need to be
> able to speak the language in order to function in society. While many people who come to this
> country do speak some English, there is a large population of new citizens who can't.

No ... The rest of the world learns to speak English, because we won't speak other languages.

What do you call a person who speaks 2 languages? Bi-lingual What do you call a person who speaks
many languages? Multi-lingual What do you call a person who speaks only one language? American
 
Kenny <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't have any problems with American citizens. I find them intriguing cause their way of life
> and their mentality there is very different from Europeans. But about that bush-guy and his
> british pet: where the hell are those damn iraqi weapons of mass destruction where we should have
> been so affraid of?

US Postal soigneurs disposed of them along with the Actovegin wrappers.
 
"Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> David Ryan wrote:
>
> > This is not Vietnam because I believe we have a Barry Goldwater instead of a Lyndon Johnson, or
> > somebody thinking only of his johnson, in office who, push come to shove, will push the button
> > and vaporize that
cesspool.
>
> Your humanity is touching. Do you know how Barry Goldwater was discredited in the Presidential
> campaign? As to your other characterisation, one other who might have thought more than a little
> with his 'johnson' once said:
>
> ""What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana, enforced on the world by American weapons of
> war, not merely peace for Americans, but peace for all men and women; not merely peace in our
> time, but peace for all time. ... Is not peace, in the last analysis, basically a matter of human
> rights? The right to live out our lives without fear of devastation, the right to breathe air as
> nature provided it, the right of future generations to a healthy existence?" (President John F
> Kennedy, 10th June 1963)
>
> That's not just YOUR rights he was talking about, he was thinking globally. Now contrast that
> level of eloquence with "Bring 'em on".
>
> He also mentioned something that you might like to bear in mind regarding nuclear war: that the
> fruits of victory would be ashes in [your] mouths.
>
> Thanks for coming, STF

Well stated. Sow Justice. Reap Peace.
 
"Charlie C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Kenny) wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> > I don't have any problems with American citizens. I find them intriguing cause their way of life
> > and their mentality there is very different from Europeans. But about that bush-guy and his
> > british pet: where the hell are those damn iraqi weapons of mass destruction where we should
> > have been so affraid of?
>
> That's a great questions. It's the question people should be asking as opposed to accusing Bush
> and Blair of lying about them. Lying about them makes no sense as the "lie" would be discovered as
> soon as the Bagdad was taken. Powel, Rice, Blair, etc... would have to be fools not to realize
> this. Plus EVERY intelligence service in the world (practically) knew they were there (no one ever
> disputed their existance before the invasion).
>
> So, instead of focusing on the important question of "what happened to them?" (are the hidden, are
> they moved?) people are using this issue as an opportunity to take pot shots. If those weopons
> don't exist then EVERY intelligence service on the planet was duped. If they do exist then
finding
> them should be people's priority, not potshots.

Excellent point. Perhaps you could begin by looking in Rumsfeld's ass. All of the other evidence was
being pulled out of there.
 
Charlie C. wrote:
>
> So, instead of focusing on the important question of "what happened to them?" (are the hidden, are
> they moved?) people are using this issue as an opportunity to take pot shots. If those weopons
> don't exist then EVERY intelligence service on the planet was duped.
>
Considering that the only source of intelligence for at least a couple of years are dodgy sattelite
photos, this is a realistic possibility.
 
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