acceleration

Discussion in 'Track Racing' started by bikeguy, Aug 13, 2004.

  1. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    0
    track racing is all about leg speed. of course you need to be strong and have good fitness, but leg speed is so very important, especially for sprinting on the track.

    do seated sprints in a small gear like 39x19. i did a bunch of those today, hit 30mph.
     


  2. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    0
    when you said you did a bunch of these do you do them over a set period of time or the duration of the time, curious to as since i have been on the track once, i have enjoyed it and more to the point i really enjoy the exhileration from going fast not that i didn't go fast on roads or decents, there seems to be more of a fear factor on the track.

    so rather than pushing the larger gears on the hills as i have over the summer, i now want to be able to improve on sprint work over the winter months.
     
  3. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    0
    i did 3 of these sprints throughout my 90minute ride. i usually like to have at least 10 minutes in between sprints.

    my advice would be to do maybe 5-8 of these sprints, seperated by at least 10 minutes, during a 2-3hr ride. you should also do real sprints too, (not the same day) like 53x16, jump out of the saddle spin it out, then seat and spin as fast as you can for ~12 seconds.

    i don't get too structured with training, it takes the fun away.
     
  4. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    0
    okey i have just give that a try and its alot easier to get upto speed rather than grinding out a larger gear, plus it seems to be a little easier to maintain, but still i find that i am compelled to change gears, do you reamain at that ratio or increase as you increase in speed, also i have noticed that if i am spinning to fast i have a tendancy to bounce in the seat. i have read that at this point your spinning to fast for that ratio, is that correct would you change or stick to the ratio but slow the spinning down a little.

    where as normally i'd be hard pressed to the back of the seat with little or no contact with it. does it still apply as far back on the seat as you find comfortable and slip to the front of the seat as you tire. i'm used to 49x11 on my MTB but on my tribike i ride 53xsecond cog of 11\21 56x15 3 cog of 11\23

    i ain't sure what amount there is on there.
     
  5. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    0
    when i do these high cadence seated sprints, i stay in one gear, usually 39x19 or 17 if it's slightly downhill. i definitely bounce in the saddle when i get up near 30mph during this drill. that's okay, it's only a sprint, and your body should adapt. don't worry about bouncing. the whole point of this drill is to condition your fast twitch muscles to fire at very high rpm(fastest possible), with medium resistence. (at the end of these sprints, i am at about 600watts. not maximum, but not light resistence.) this drill should improve your top end speed in a 200 meter track sprint, where you are in the saddle pedaling as fast as possible, even though you are likely to be at 140-160rpms, not 180)

    i would also recomend you do seated sprints in a big gear like 53x13 from ~15mph, which last 12-15 seconds(stay in that gear the whole time). this will improve your seated leg strength and explosiveness, very important for top end speed on the track.

    standing jumps in a medium gear are also another good drill. you need to be able to snap that gear from ~20mph. go all out for ~8 seconds. really really put in the effort. these are best done with a training partner of simular ability. you will probally shift once or twice, depending on your starting gear and speed.
     
  6. Meek One

    Meek One New Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    629
    Likes Received:
    0
    There was a really neat dam by my dads house which was only about 120 meters long and had steep hills on both ends. My brother and I would roll down a hill at about 20-25mph and then on the straight floor it and hold it as long as possible only then to roll up the other hill and rest and repeat. I would typically max around 36mph and my brother would whiz by me usually topping 40mph. It was great fun for us thinking we were on the autobahn and he was going to blow by me and me trying in vain to fend him off. I miss that...
     
  7. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do something similar, but when i jump to standing and stamping (Stomp) on the pedals i usually fiind that i bounce the backend of the bike, if it doesn't bounce i ain't offering enough forward momentum and too much weight on the backend, (if you imagine, just passing the 12o'clock position and stamping as hard as you can on the pedal) i find that when the bike has reached my standing speed the backend doesn't bounce anymore 'this is usually around 36/38mph then i'll sit down and drop through the gears until i can't maintain it anymore. these last for about 1000m, but when i sit, i assume aero position, and shift through 3/4 gears pushing it to a faster speed.

    is that right????

    Also i have started adding 1 legged intervals mashing out a top gear, upto about 60 revelutions then exchanging, now this alone for over an hour i have noticed an increase in speed, when i use both legs, plus when they tire i can have a little rest and let one leg take over so they git to recover on the move.

    out on the road on a flat stretch i was maintaining 43mph, i could have gone more but i was drafting off some shocked motorcyclist :) so far its working.

    but when you say seated leg sprints, do ou apply your weight more over the rear of the saddle pushing across the pedals opposed to pushing down.???
     
  8. racer dave

    racer dave New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2004
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  9. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  10. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think you just need to work on your form a little more. Your back end shouldn't be bouncing during an acceleration on a smooth road. (I have done sprints on crappy pavement and my back end is ALL over the place)

    When I so seated sprints in a big gear I sit normally and concentrate on applying maximum force throughout the whole pedal stroke. Of course I am pushing harder on the downstroke.

    38mph for a kilometer? That is wicked fast, especially after a standing start. You would be a very very good kilo rider on the track. I usually top out at 34mph during a kilo effort, and just try to hold that speed the rest of the way. My one minute/kilo power is around 700watts average if I am motivated.

    I did some sprints yesterday, it was a lot of fun. Early in the ride I was out on a main route with heavy traffic, speed limit of 45mph. I start winding it up for this slight downhill section, so I can get through there fast without cars passing me. I was up at 45mph after the small 40ft elevation drop, with the traffic behind me. But I figure since I was at the speed limit, I wasn't holding them up (It's a hard place to pass a biker). It was the fastest I have ever gone through that section, lots of fun. And to think that elite track sprinters do that same speed without a downhill, I felt fast for once!
     
  11. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did some more sprints today and I too have had my back end bounce during the jump. This usually happens if I am slightly overgeared at the start. This happens because of your legs pulling on the upstroke. I thought I had good form, or maybe this is normal?

    BTW, I hit a bump in the road at 46mph on a slight right hand bend. I was sprinting in the saddle coming off a downhill and my back end jump across the road. A little scary, but I bet the guy in the truck behind me was more scared!
    Gotta watch those bumps!
     
  12. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    0
    most the time when i'm doing starts (accelleration i do them on my mtb) since i have a smaller gear ratio, 32/15 to 25-30mph thats done in around 4 or 5 seconds but only a few seconds more during jump starts on 53/17 but i prefare to ride 39x17 if i want to generate any decent kind of cadence spin.

    mine to bounces when i'm doing jump starts, but i thinks its more to appyling more weight to the front end that would normally be situated over the bb.

    but i do find it very useful doing seated sprints with a smaller gear, since it helps make a short journey into a grouling test of strength and stamina, plus it makes the higher gear cadences feel so much easier even though slower, what is it that they say about variety?
     
  13. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    0
    I ruined my rear wheel and frame today. I did a real hard jump(18mph, 39x15) and the wheel came out of the dropouts and pushed the frame apart. The wheel and tire is complete trash now. I assume my powertap hub is still okay.

    Going to the LBS tomorrow to see what the guys think
     
  14. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    0
    as a runner/sprinter capable of 20mph or so capable of running down a cycle thief with an 400metre start, i'd say that the 7 seconds that your achieving so far is pretty good, i am however very glad that your aren't the oppertunist thief that decided he liked my bike enough to risk his health :D

    what do you do as in training sessions vel (is it just track sessions) do you ride with the nationals or anything?

    Ohhh ! vel that gotta hurt, you okey, the frame; what the LBS have to say? god i hope you don't have to splash out for a new power tap.

    Is your bike not insured, tell them the wheel and powertap have died, i'll give your old one a good home, ;)
     
  15. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't live near a velodrome, and I have only ridden one once. i haven't been too structured lately, and I am doing weights now so I can't do too much on the bike. My favorite thing to do is 4 second accelerations out of the saddle in a 39x14 or 15. i have done so many of these this year that my initial jump is my best strength.
    Some other good workouts i like are;
    -standing starts in a 53x13 or 14 (these give my upper body a good workout too!) i usually start at a walking speed and go till i hit 30mph, or 10 seconds.
    -big gear seated sprints in 53x13 I start at normal cruising speed and go for about 10 seconds.
    -high cadence seated sprints in 39x19 i start at cruising speed and go until I am COMPLETELY spun out, which is about 10 seconds, and at 31mph or 190rpms. (it is kind of hard to breathe during these. it takes full concentration to move your legs as fast as possible. I sometimes feel sick after a bunch of these)
    I don't do normal long sprints very often because unless I am feeling 100% they take so much out of me. I really should do more long sprints, because my top end speed really needs improvement, compared to my jump.
    It is great having a powertap, it is really easy to analyze your sprint power and see improvements. Ever since June I have been so caught up in raising my absolute peak power. I am 600watts higher than I was 18months ago, and that is without any weight training. But I have plataued the past month or two. I am now getting into the serious part of my weight training, and hopefully I can see some improvement within the next couple months.

    I really believe there is a lot of power to be gained thru speed workouts, without building muscle mass (of course you need to do both to reach your maximum potential). I feel I still could have done more speed work on the bike to raise my sprint power. Workouts like the high cadence sprints, in the saddle and standing. My vertical jump is still horrible at 17 inches, so maybe I have a lot more room for improvement concerning explosiveness.
    I will be sure to include a good amount of speed work this winter, along with the weights.

    As for my bike, the frame is still ridable. I have done about 100 miles since the incident. The wheel was trash, the LBS is building me a new one with the same powertap hub. I didn't crash when the wheel came out of the dropouts and locked up, but it was a little scary. but it was even more funny, it was the funniest thing to see. From now on my rear skewer is mega tight. I will probally buy a new caad5 frame/fork from the LBS, they are going to give me a good deal ($300!) I wanted a smaller frame anyways, so it worked out.
    The powertap is still alive, but those hub bearings are such crap. The LBS replaced them and now, a few months later, they are shot again.
    I would love to get on the national track team in a year or two, all new equipment for free! An old racing buddy of mine from my early junior days is on the team, he went to the olympics (Christian Stahl)

    Right now I am trying to figure out how I am going to combine the weights and bike workouts this off season. I will probally only lift once a week when I get into the real hard lifting, to allow for full recovery.
    I think it is a great idea to do some bike sprint type work before and after all weight sessions. You need to transfer that strength to the bike.
     
  16. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    0
    its good to hear that your okey! even more so that your bike is since that won't heal, unforunate however about the wheel, but thats life you can't possibly keep on using then without them eventually failing at somepoint, i'm trying to avoid weights this year, i think i'm gonna be focussing on mashing out big gears on bigger hill gradiances, throwing in the occassional light spinning session as normal. I was however hoping to be joining the velodrome and using it alot more often, but due to travelling times and other factors, i've decided its time the missus learns to drive, then she can take me and my track bike to the track more often.

    At the minute however i'm spending more time working and building the car that i have purchased for her and all my rides seem to be sprints to and from work nothing to structured as expected it is winter almost.
     
  17. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you are looking for greater explosive sprint power(track racing) or just more strength from bike workouts, I would recomend the overgeared sprints. There is tremendous tension in your muscles during these, a lot more than overgeared climbs, and it activates your fast twitch muscles.
     
  18. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do find that during times that i have been sprinting, spinning etc, that my leggs seem to weeken and the effort required to mash out the bigger gears becomes somewhat difficult, i have however found that mashing out the larger gears for one or two days on the hills (thats up not down), helps me regain that lost strength, then again i am able to mash out the top gears maintaining 25-30 53x12 where the days previous turning 53x15 had become difficult, maybe its the difference in cadence that allows the muscles to recover, opposed to spinning 53x15 for long periods of time, like this week for instance i'm mashing 53x12 and i was trying to spin 53x17 which i was finding difficult due to tired legs.

    they seem to be recovering now since i was hitting 30+ on the flat again in 53x12 my cadence maybe slower but its giving my legs the opertunity to recover :) what do you do to recover over periods of tired legs? light spinning doesn't seem to help since the following day they feel pretty much little in difference.
     
  19. velomanct

    velomanct New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,054
    Likes Received:
    0
    If my legs are tired I simply take it easy or don't ride. After a few days they come back. I just took a rest week, only did one ride since sunday. I bet I will be flying tomorrow. And tomorrow is the day I get my powertap wheel back. What a coincidence
     
  20. closesupport

    closesupport Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,064
    Likes Received:
    0
    i wish i had the option not to ride at the moment, my only mode of transport is to cycle, so the only choice of not riding is not riding (training) of an evening, but no matter how tired my legs are feeling at the minute i have a tendency to either slow down my speeds to and from work, the last 4 weeks i have been spinning 44x19 at 23mph now i have just opted to use the higher 44x11 and try to mash out the big gears, when i have regained that strength i guess i'll be dropping again to 44x13 and back up to 27mph, I'm a little worried now about sunday since the thought of riding 53x13 which to me seems somewhat enormous. ohh 7/8 seconds or so to accelerate to 31mph maintained over 800m

    where you riding sunday vel? i'm contemplating a ride to get a good 100mile in, well if the weather permits that is! wouldn't mind a ride from the lake district back home or so, but i guess i'll end up pretty much lost clocking up the miles to find my way home or even to and from southport back home?

    see what the weather permits..
     
Loading...
Loading...