Accident locations...

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by ftf, Feb 9, 2004.

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  1. ftf

    ftf New Member

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    In the thread about bike lanes on roads, a couple of posters suggested that most accidents/collisions occur at intersections. I completely agree with respect to cars, however my theory is the opposite with bicycles.

    In my relatively short commuting history (7 years), I have been involved in several collisions with cars and have witnessed or seen the aftermath of numerous collisions as well. Not one of those was at an intersection (here I define an intersection as the intersection of roads with traffic lights) - mostly car doors, being cut off while turning into side streets, driveways etc...

    I completely agree that intersections are far more dangerous than other parts of the road but because of that, I generalise and say that most cyclists take extra (EXTRA) caution and are prepared for the worst when approaching one. Of course, if and when an accident does occur at an intersection it is likely to be more serious (vehicles moving in opposite directions etc) but I suggest that they are far less frequent.

    So I am interested to know what other people's experiences have been with regards to collisions and where they have occurred...

    Cheers,
    Troy
     
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  2. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear Guest

    ftf wrote in message ...
    >In the thread about bike lanes on roads, a couple of posters suggested that most
    >accidents/collisions occur at intersections. I completely agree with respect to cars, however my
    >theory is the opposite with bicycles.
    >
    >In my relatively short commuting history (7 years), I have been involved in several collisions with
    >cars and have witnessed or seen the aftermath of numerous collisions as well. Not one of those was
    >at an intersection (here I define an intersection as the intersection of roads with traffic lights)
    >- mostly car doors, being cut off while turning into side streets, driveways etc...
    >
    >I completely agree that intersections are far more dangerous than other parts of the road but
    >because of that, I generalise and say that most cyclists take extra (EXTRA) caution and are
    >prepared for the worst when approaching one. Of course, if and when an accident does occur at an
    >intersection it is likely to be more serious (vehicles moving in opposite directions etc) but I
    >suggest that they are far less frequent.
    >
    >So I am interested to know what other people's experiences have been with regards to collisions and
    >where they have occurred...
    >

    I tend to class an intersection as being where 2 different roads meet, whether they have traffic
    lights or not. In my experience accidents/near misses have been ( in order of most common):
    1. Cars racing around me in order to do a left turn directly in front of me ( most common cause ).
    2. Cars trying to do left turn on to the same road I'm on and cutting me off.
    3. Getting squeezed to the gutter
    4. Pedestrians cutting across the road, usually opposite tram stops ( yes I've cleaned up a ped
    this way).
    5. Strangely the least common is cars doing a right turn. They nearly always seem to notice me
    and give way.

    So most of my near misses have been at intersections. The one accident I've had was with a
    pedestrian.
     
  3. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

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    since when is turning into a sidestreet or driveway not an intersection???

    The real deal about bikelanes and intersections is the very blatant convenient ignorance applied by councils IMHO.
    The one place where things are statistically going to get messy
    (RTA and BV research, not just a theory) are intersections.
    The one place where cyclists are always stupidly accused of 'getting in the way' are intersections.
    Getting struck from behind is a very small (albeit serious) occurence in bike accidents.

    From a totally different angle, when a driver pulls into another street or goes around a corner, how do they know there is a bike lane without travelling 100-200 metres and being re-enlightened about the lane's presence?

    That is also a huge weakness of those stupid 3 dashes plus a bike' lanes. Pulling out of a sidestreet gives you no indication whatsoever

    totally agree with car doors tho
    (when I was 18 i watched my best mate killed a few metres ahead of me when a dolt opened their door and the top corner went straight thru his helmet. PS - The driver, after complaining that Andrew had hit him, tried later to sue him for damaging his door. PPS I broke his jaw. not something Im proud of, but circumstances and all that... )
     
  4. ftf

    ftf New Member

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    Ok. I was thinking in terms of bike lanes and their continuation through intersections. If we include every point that a vehicle can turn into a road then I definately agree that most collisions occur at these intersections.

    You are spot on about turning out into the street. Most drivers aren't going to notice there is a bike lane until they either look and (possibly) notice you coming or notice that you have gone through their side window. Unfortunately there are no other visual indications... i'm not really sure what the answer is.

    So, like you say, the whole bike lane theory is flawed. Most accidents do not occur from behind, and you can't really see them from the side, oh and they make great parking bays along residential streets creating more of a hazard with opening doors...

    It is more than a little unfortunate that such a simple and peaceful form of transport is forced to share the same space as these man-made killing machines.
     
  5. "flyingdutch" <[email protected]om> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > ftf wrote:
    > > Not one of those was at an intersection (here I define an intersection as the intersection of
    > > roads with traffic lights) - mostly car doors, being cut off while turning into side streets,
    > > driveways etc... Troy
    >
    >
    >
    > since when is turning into a sidestreet or driveway not an intersection???

    But the intersections where the bike lanes disappear are the ones with the traffic lights. All
    driveways and most minor roads alongside a bike lane retain some form of bike lane marking.

    > From a totally different angle, when a driver pulls into another street or goes around a corner,
    > how do they know there is a bike lane without travelling 100-200 metres and being re-enlightened
    > about the lane's presence?

    With a bike lane there is normally a clear lane marking straight away.

    From a different point of view, out my way in the 'burbs there are quite a few main roads with
    continuous bike lanes, clearly marked eg. Blackburn Road. Generally traffic stays well out of these
    lanes, except of course for the allowed left turning. What is noticeable is the remarkable absence
    of cyclists using the lanes.

    Vicroads and local councils have a good program of bike lanes in progress, but I wonder about their
    'build them and they will come' philosophy. When the oil crunch hits they will be an asset - but
    then it's not needed. Surely the aim is to get people riding, but there are lots of other social,
    financial and institutional factors that are holding the vast majority of people back.

    Cheers Peter
     
  6. Baka Dasai

    Baka Dasai Guest

    On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:04:38 GMT, ftf said (and I quote):
    > mostly car doors,

    Don't ride in the door zone. Although it's illegal for somebody to open a car door without checking
    behind, virtually every driver does it anyway. The only thing to do as a cyclist is to leave at
    least a metre between parked cars and you. If that means riding outside a marked bike lane, or
    taking a whole lane of traffic, then that's what you've got to do for your own safety.

    > being cut off while turning into side streets,

    ie, an intersection.

    > driveways etc...

    These are also intersections. Their danger is reduced by not hugging the kerb. The further out in
    the lane you are, the more likely you will be in the motorists line of sight, and the more room you
    give them to stop before pulling out in front of you.

    Bike lanes protect against none of these accident types, and in the case of car doors, usually make
    things worse by placing riders in the door zone. I'd also argue that bike lanes make things worse at
    intersections because they condition both motorists and riders to think that bikes should always be
    on the left edge of the road, which is quite wrong in situations such as the bike making a right-
    turn, or a car making a left-turn from a left-turn only lane.

    The only place where I can see bike lanes being useful is on roads with very few intersections,
    and where the traffic is very fast moving. Like a freeway, for example. Even then, the bike lane
    isn't going to add much to the experience compared to riding on the same bit of asphalt sans bike
    lane markings.
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  7. Drs

    Drs Guest

    Baka Dasai <[email protected]> wrote in message
    [email protected]

    > Don't ride in the door zone. Although it's illegal for somebody to open a car door without
    > checking behind, virtually every driver does it anyway.

    That nearly happened to me the other week. This bloke had just opened the driver's side door and
    then reached across to fiddle with something on the passenger seat. I just *knew* what was going to
    happen so I gave myself enough room but still, just as he blindly opened his door exactly in time to
    snare me had I not been alert, I shouted "Oi!" at him at the top of my voice. The look on his face
    was priceless. He won't forget that in a hurry. :)

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  8. ftf

    ftf New Member

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    Yes, good advice and I agree...
    but on the occasions I have unfortunately collected someone's door (twice) and most of the near misses have been from car passengers opening their doors while in traffic i.e. not parked but stationary and on my right.
    Needless to say, I now slow down and anticipate the worst in these situations...
     
  9. Ray Peace

    Ray Peace Guest

    Greetings, Intersections are unquestionably more dangerous. I have had three major bingles in twenty
    years, and two of those involved cars at intersections, in one case turning right through traffic,
    (Oh, I didn't see you) and in the second case, which was worse, coming through a Stop sign on a
    clear road. As one motoring expert put it, accidents happen when the average motorist has an average
    lapse of their average concentration. Sometimes we have the plain bad luck to be in the way when it
    does, and we are more vulnerable without a tonne of metal surrounding us. This is distinct from
    morons who do stupid things intentionally (see other message this morning), and downright cretins
    who do things that are terminally stupid, such as blabbing on their mobiles while driving, which I
    see every other day. My general rule is to assume that all car driver are idiots. 99 per cent of the
    time you'll be wrong. The one per cent of the time you're right,

    Regards, Ray.

    ftf wrote:

    >In the thread about bike lanes on roads, a couple of posters suggested that most
    >accidents/collisions occur at intersections. I completely agree with respect to cars, however my
    >theory is the opposite with bicycles.
    >
    >In my relatively short commuting history (7 years), I have been involved in several collisions with
    >cars and have witnessed or seen the aftermath of numerous collisions as well. Not one of those was
    >at an intersection (here I define an intersection as the intersection of roads with traffic lights)
    >- mostly car doors, being cut off while turning into side streets, driveways etc...
    >
    >I completely agree that intersections are far more dangerous than other parts of the road but
    >because of that, I generalise and say that most cyclists take extra (EXTRA) caution and are
    >prepared for the worst when approaching one. Of course, if and when an accident does occur at an
    >intersection it is likely to be more serious (vehicles moving in opposite directions etc) but I
    >suggest that they are far less frequent.
    >
    >So I am interested to know what other people's experiences have been with regards to collisions and
    >where they have occurred...
    >
    >Cheers, Troy
    >
    >
    >
    >--
     
  10. On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 01:57:28 +1100, "DRS" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Baka Dasai <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >[email protected]
    >
    >> Don't ride in the door zone. Although it's illegal for somebody to open a car door without
    >> checking behind, virtually every driver does it anyway.
    >
    >That nearly happened to me the other week. This bloke had just opened the driver's side door and
    >then reached across to fiddle with something on the passenger seat. I just *knew* what was going to
    >happen so I gave myself enough room but still, just as he blindly opened his door exactly in time
    >to snare me had I not been alert, I shouted "Oi!" at him at the top of my voice. The look on his
    >face was priceless. He won't forget that in a hurry. :)

    He's probably composing a post to aus.cars about the stupid cyclist who nearly scratched his
    car door :)

    I wonder how many motorists know that they are legally responsible for the safety of others when
    they open their door. The blonde who nearly got me on Monday certainly wasn't.

    --
    Regards. Richard.
     
  11. amirm

    amirm New Member

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    Hey Richard,

    What are you complaining about? Just think of the aftermath if it did happen ;)

     
  12. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    Peter Signorini:

    > Vicroads and local councils have a good program of bike lanes in progress, but I wonder about
    > their 'build them and they will come' philosophy. When the oil crunch hits they will be an asset -
    > but then it's not needed. Surely the aim is to get people riding, but there are lots of other
    > social, financial and institutional factors that are holding the vast majority of people back.

    What are these factors?
     
  13. Jorgen

    Jorgen Guest

    "flyingdutch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]... [...]
    > totally agree with car doors tho (when I was 18 i watched my best mate killed a few metres ahead
    > of me when a dolt opened their door and the
    ^^^^^^

    > top corner went straight thru his helmet. PS - The driver, after complaining that Andrew had
    > hit him, tried later to sue him for damaging his door. PPS I broke his jaw. not something Im
    > proud of, but

    Post mortem suing his family? Really??

    > circumstances and all that... )

    Then again, it's something you _could_ be proud of, IMNSPCO (to coin an acronym).

    j
     
  14. On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:04:55 GMT, amirm
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Richard Sherrat wrote:
    > > wrote:
    > > > (snip)... The blonde who nearly got me on Monday certainly wasn't.

    >Hey Richard,
    >
    >What are you complaining about? Just think of the aftermath if it did happen ;)

    Only problem was that she was plug ugly :) Makeup applied like render.

    --
    Regards. Richard.
     
  15. Drs

    Drs Guest

    ftf <[email protected]> wrote in message amUVb.34336$R%[email protected]

    [...]

    > I completely agree that intersections are far more dangerous than other parts of the road but
    > because of that, I generalise and say that most cyclists take extra (EXTRA) caution and are
    > prepared for the worst when approaching one. Of course, if and when an accident does occur at an
    > intersection it is likely to be more serious (vehicles moving in opposite directions etc) but I
    > suggest that they are far less frequent.

    OK, here's one for the Melbourne folk: how does a cyclist safely ride north on Punt Road whilst
    crossing the Swan Street intersection?

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  16. cfsmtb

    cfsmtb New Member

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    Ideally via a teleporter from the Enterprise NCC-1702 A/B/C or D.
     
  17. Baka Dasai

    Baka Dasai Guest

    On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:50:18 GMT, Jose Rizal said (and I quote):
    > Peter Signorini:
    >
    >> Vicroads and local councils have a good program of bike lanes in progress, but I wonder about
    >> their 'build them and they will come' philosophy. When the oil crunch hits they will be an asset
    >> - but then it's not needed. Surely the aim is to get people riding, but there are lots of other
    >> social, financial and institutional factors that are holding the vast majority of people back.
    >
    > What are these factors?

    Off the top of my head:

    1. They like their car. Their whole self-image is wrapped up in their car, which they probably
    spent a lot of money on. Becoming a cyclist would mean that they'd have to change their whole
    self-image.

    2. They don't want to look like a dork. They don't want to stand out and be different. None of their
    friends do it. The whole of the society's image of itself is wrapped up in cars, and to ride a
    bike means to locate yourself outside that image - you necessarily become a rebel of sorts. Most
    people aren't willing to do this.

    And now for the boring ones...

    3. They're afraid of the traffic.

    4. They don't like exercise.

    5. They don't want to ride in the rain.

    6. Many of their trips are too far for comfortable cycling.

    7. They often have to carry things or people (kids).

    Seriously, if the first two reasons didn't exist, people would find excuses TO ride, rather than the
    excuses not to ride seen in numbers 3 to 7.
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  18. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

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    went to the boroondara traffic management meeting on Tues night, where they had maps showing stats of traffic flow (or lack thereof!), public transport, bike lanes, accidents, pedestrians-involved-accidents, bike-involved-accidents.

    According to these stats (RTA, police, boroondara)

    OVER 95% OF ALL INCIDENTS HAPPENED AT INTERSECTIONS!

    On the bike-specific map it was the same.
    Interestingly, Kew Junction was the worst spot by far
    (Im gonna take a punt and say it was traffic turning right into the start of cotham or at the main junction itself, but it didnt say.
    Interestingly, Council have just blacked out the bike lane on the north, east-heading side so as not presumably to upset peds alighting the tram out front of the 'Skinny Dog' Pub)

    There were far more overall incidents at T intersections involving secondary roads entering main roads and very very few on straight or open sections of road or backstreet.
    This was pointed out very clearly to the attending traffic consultants, town engineers and councillors who were there.

    Be there next Wed PM at Hawthorn Town Hall, 6:30pm to back this up people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Take it to the frontline. Great to here all this on a forum of great heads thinking alike but unless you do/say something it stays in the confines of the forum:D :D
     
  19. ftf

    ftf New Member

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    Cyclist, Punt rd, Safe... choose 2.

    Cheers,
    Troy
     
  20. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

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    Avoid the hill totally and turn left at Alexandra Parade and then turn right ang go over the bike/pedestrain only bridge (cant remember the name) and continue north along bike path back to the intersection of Swan St.

    I am assuming you meant the parade brifge as Swan St bridge and Punt road are about 1.5km apart! :)
     
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